How steep can it go?

[Rockape]

Right - today’s stupid question

When jacking up the front (or rear) of the car, and putting onto axle stands, what is the maximum inclination you can go to? Is there an “angle of attack” that will start to do harm - fluids in the wrong place for example?

 

[Pete Lewis]

the levels of all will take any good jack up , trolley or stands   theres little to worry about 

the only real leaker would be the gearbox front seal which depending on just what car can be a scroll wich can leak on steep hills 

and some early cranks had a scroll rear seal 

both can be affected by inclines or over filling 

but in all general jacking there is no problems you need to worry about 

if you jack one end up by some silly height 3-4ft   thats possibly a different story 

what height were you thinking of and what car ???

Pete

[NonMember]

As Pete said, shouldn't ever really be an issue. The cars had to be designed to cope with being driven (or parked) on a 1-in-3 hill, or with two wheels up a steep bank.

[Rockape]

Triumph Spitfire

 

Planning to use the CJ Autos jack-ramps - so should be fine at 15” elevation at the wheel. 
 

I was thinking about 30% incline would be fine - on my axle stands it looked just like a reasonable incline hill.

but there must be a limit at some point point - there are various fluids in the car - battery, brakes, clutch, water, petrol in the carbs etc…..

anyway - its just a theoretical problem I guess….

[Pete Lewis]

so  if the headlights aim at the moon  ITs tooooo High  

yes valid thoughts but you wont enter the unknown by using ramps even jackable ones 

Pete

[Badwolf]

I found out, when I jacked up the read, that my front diff seals were knackered. Bit of a giveaway, oil all over the floor, but I don't think that this is a normal occurrence!

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Badwolf said:

I found out, when I jacked up the read, that my front diff seals were knackered. Bit of a giveaway, oil all over the floor, but I don't think that this is a normal occurrence!

They're only rubber seals to keep the oil in when driving, not 100% oil tight. Tip the rear up and the oil will leak past them.... been there!! Gearbox will do the same into the bellhousing. I love the smell of gearoil but not the price.

As for operating angle.... when my brother-in-law fixed his aunt's car (I think a Vauxhall?) he hoisted the front up on a chain hoist until the car was almost vertical. I've no idea what that did to the oil in the sump but he had great access to the underside for welding.

[Badwolf]

Colin - Not had a problem with leaking diff since replacing the seal so I must have done something right and the back end has spent a lot of time jacked up since it was done.

[Colin Lindsay]

8 minutes ago, Badwolf said:

Colin - Not had a problem with leaking diff since replacing the seal so I must have done something right and the back end has spent a lot of time jacked up since it was done.

Have you checked there's any oil left?  Planet Earth tilts going round the sun and mine dumps oil on the garage floor, no encouragement needed!

[ahebron]

My Vitesse 6 gearbox leaks happily on the level no need for this fangled jacking.
Diff did the same till I replaced the incorrectly fitted nose seal.
I am worried as the engine doesnt leak oil and sounds far too quiet.😟😉 

[Badwolf]

30 minutes ago, ahebron said:

I am worried as the engine doesnt leak oil and sounds far too quiet.😟😉 

Don't worry, it's a Triumph. It will be leaking somewhere, it's just not obvious yet. They are sneaky like that! 😁

[Chris A]

3 minutes ago, Badwolf said:

Don't worry, it's a Triumph. It will be leaking somewhere, it's just not obvious yet. They are sneaky like that! 😁

Not just oil. Recently my 13/60 has decided to expel more coolant than normal via the rad cap, in the past if I overfilled it would pee the excess out when it got hot. Lately it has decided it only wants the coolant level upto the top of the fins and no more. I initially worried that a hose was leaking, hole in rad . . . .but concluded it was via the overflow. Rigged up a temporary overflow bottle so it now pushes it out when hot and sucks it back when it cools. Taken delivery a few minutes ago of a delivery of bits including a proper overflow bottle & bracket. I bet that once I fit it the car will not use it and decide to leak somewhere else . .

I know 13/60 aren't supposed to have an overflow bottle but the system functions with one. The car hasn't been overheating, even in the current weather.

They are sneaky these Triumphs!

[Pete Lewis]

you normally need a rad cap with a firbe /rubber   top seal so the overflow section of the filler is fully sealed

if there is air leaking the bottle wont return the coolant expelled as well as it should 

Pete

[johny]

I quite like the idea of the system without bottle as thats exactly what moderns use although in ours it has the disadvantage that you cant see the level in the system so if there is a leak you wont know until theres a cooling problem. At least with a bottle we always know that if it AND the pipe have coolant in then the rad must be full... 

[johny]

of course another disadvantage is that if the rad level goes below that of the heater it might affect flow through the heater core....

[steveo]

Worked for a independent Volvo garage in the 1990's, to weld up 240 / 260 series we rolled them on there sides resting on old tyres.

Put them back the right way up & left them for a hour before starting up, never had a problem, did get some funny looks from customers but its much easier to stand or sit welding than doing it upside down ! always looked neat when finished.

Something you couldn't do on modern cars with loads of sensors / airbags.  

[Chris A]

54 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

you normally need a rad cap with a firbe /rubber   top seal so the overflow section of the filler is fully sealed

if there is air leaking the bottle wont return the coolant expelled as well as it should 

Pete

Yes I get the point and would agree but mine does suck it back up.

When I put the temporary system in I added a small quantity of coolant to the bottle so the pipe was immersed in it. After a good run I checked the bottle straight away and the level had gone up. When the car was fully cold I looked again and most of the liquid had disappeared. Could it have evaporated I asked myself? I removed the rad cap ant the coolant level was up to the base of the cap - I never fill it that high. Removed the excess liquid before I went off for the weekend with the car. Got back yesterday and there was coolant in the bottle, before setting off it was virtually empty. I have to admit I haven't confirmed since that it has been sucked back in again, will do that in the next couple of days as I'm taking it to a meeting Thursday (July 14th).

Postie arrived this pm with a nice selection box of bits I ordered last week, in it (among other bits) there is a nice big bottle, top and shiny bracket. I think it is Vitesse stuff.

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

you normally need a rad cap with a firbe /rubber   top seal so the overflow section of the filler is fully sealed

All the 3 caps I have have one.

[Chris A]

6 minutes ago, johny said:

of course another disadvantage is that if the rad level goes below that of the heater it might affect flow through the heater core....

Interesting point. The level drops to just show the tops of the rad cores, I think the heater is above that level but will try and remember to check.

[johny]

ummm that is low as you dont want to starve some of the rad down tubes and lose cooling....

The bottle should be half full when cold and the level will go up and down as the coolant in the system expands and contracts with temperature. Your volume of coolant is presumably less than a Vitesse so the amount produced by expansion should be correspondingly less which maybe why Triumph mainly used bottles on the six cylinder cars. 

[NonMember]

40 minutes ago, johny said:

why Triumph mainly used bottles on the six cylinder cars

I suspect that was because the six cylinder were more marginal on cooling, and therefore needed the radiator full.

1 hour ago, johny said:

I quite like the idea of the system without bottle as thats exactly what moderns use

Not really. Moderns usually have a bottle - normally a translucent plastic one - but it's within the system, so that the "radiator" cap is actually on said bottle. They also have two hoses to it (normally one small and one large) so that it partakes in the circulation, albeit only a little. For this to work, that bottle (unlike the Stag one!) needs to be at the highest point in the system, with its top (small) hose fed from the highest point of the engine. Any air in the system thus migrates to the bottle, which can remain only half full. Even on a slab-fronted car like a Herald or Vitesse, the radiator is not the highest point.

[johny]

1 minute ago, NonMember said:

I suspect that was because the six cylinder were more marginal on cooling, and therefore needed the radiator full.

Not really. Moderns usually have a bottle - normally a translucent plastic one - but it's within the system, so that the "radiator" cap is actually on said bottle. They also have two hoses to it (normally one small and one large) so that it partakes in the circulation, albeit only a little. For this to work, that bottle (unlike the Stag one!) needs to be at the highest point in the system, with its top (small) hose fed from the highest point of the engine. Any air in the system thus migrates to the bottle, which can remain only half full. Even on a slab-fronted car like a Herald or Vitesse, the radiator is not the highest point.

I cant see why having a full rad improves cooling. As long as coolant is going down all the tubes you cant expect much more...

If triumph designed the system without a bottle I think the rad top tank must be the highest point otherwise the heater could lose flow. Then the pocket of air in the top tank acts EXACTLY like the one in the bottle of a modern vehicle as in both case its held back by the rad/bottle pressure cap and absorbs the expansion of the coolant.

There is basically only three types of system: open (evaporation) used very early on in vehicle design, semi closed as used on the sixes, closed like moderns and it appears the Herald...

[Colin Lindsay]

25 minutes ago, johny said:

I cant see why having a full rad improves cooling. As long as coolant is going down all the tubes you cant expect much more...

That last is the crux; as long as fluid is reaching the tubes. It may go down below the level of the tubes, but the pump is still able to 'throw' coolant up and over so that it sinks down, however I'll meet it half way and top the system up periodically and certainly before a long run. The handbook lists it under 'daily attention' and states the coolant should be one inch below the filler neck (although it doesn't state top or bottom) which allows for expansion during driving but not loss. 

If you stand in front of the car and 'squint' over the engine (I had to, no glasses....!) the top heater pipe is a good two inches above the radiator cap. I'd reckon the system would have to get pretty low before air would get to the heater system, but does the setup mean that in the case of coolant loss, the heater loses coolant before the engine; therefore allowing the engine to run slightly longer, but also the cold heater may alert the driver to the problem?

[johny]

Certainly you know youve got low coolant in the Vitesse when the heater goes cold👍

[Chris A]

15 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

The handbook lists it under 'daily attention' and states the coolant should be one inch below the filler neck (although it doesn't state top or bottom) which allows for expansion during driving but not loss. 

Daily attention implies that Triumph knew the Herald would evacuate coolant.

In my book is states the level is 1" below the bottom of the filler neck, easy to check by sticking a thumb in the filler neck.

[johny]

yes I think that means below the bottom of the neck which would leave sufficent space to absorb the maximum expansion of the system coolant and no more liquid will be lost. The manufacturers of moderns do the same by calculation so that the air pocket in the plastic reservoir is, if the cold coolant level is on the mark, the necessary volume to absorb expansion and reach the correct pressure. This last is critical as the coolant could start to boil if not pressurised correctly...