13/60 randomly turning off or kicking back, high temps

[Quack]

Yep once i get it charged up and am certain all the fuel lines are sealed tight i'll get cranking. It is likely there's air leaks as my microbore and rubber hose is 8mm, but the inlet/outlet pipes are smaller, (maybe 6mm) so the connections there are very loose, hence why im buying some 8mm inlet/outlet pipes.

[foshi]

just a thought you have probably have checked though not got a bad kink in the new pipe run

[Quack]

I had looked but not completely, for the run under the car i simply blocked the other end and blew in to it to check if there was an air leaking but didnt seem to be.

[NonMember]

You really shouldn't need to mess about with second pumps for priming. If the fuel pipes are clear of blockage and free of leaks then a mechanical pump in even half-way decent condition will self-prime. Usually no more than three or four strokes of the hand lever, or about ten seconds cranking.

The original pipes on a 13/60 were all 1/4". The Mk2 Vitesse had 5/16" (which is near-as-dammit 8mm) up to the pump, then 1/4" round to the carbs. I'm not entirely sure what the reserve tap / feed pipe at the tank is on them - it looks like 1/4" on my Mk1 Vitesse.

[johny]

29 minutes ago, Quack said:

Also quick question, anybody know the name for the little pipes that connect from the pump inlet/outlet to the hose? They screw in to the pump and have a sort of 'stopper' on the end of them, i've noticed that one of mine doesn't have that stopper which could cause problems/leaks later.

 

Edit: found them https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174370489782?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D240679%26meid%3Dcba7426db1d9448193ab332362dc91c2%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D154519332746%26itm%3D174370489782%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv9PairwiseWebMskuAspectsV202110NoVariantSeedKnnRecallV1WithImageBatchRecallCoreAI&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A174370489782cba7426db1d9448193ab332362dc91c2|enc%3AAQAHAAABMAcMXr%2F091BrP%2B67T259TK1Jntx9aeN3CMQqTIyzwSCBiJ8X%2FQ%2BZk5rcfVGRnBLrU%2B1Id%2FEaflQMElTC1yw3BlVQYpiioi1qszGfWsrgbQAzVtMn57tkgqcQJn%2BUAgaAt3lYMo78N%2Bo3clkm2megrIKc8QvCJzAwWBMXw1CVJ5d%2B7NHaIeCNMS%2BrOEmcA2luEarAU6N2n4qu2e1Dw9JBzG0c7Qef9MNdm%2FURzpSnLTTrrxJsInoXxasLg4p8TDXN4iO55sqNfiq7DyjkWxqBZBYzuCUQ0MRZhPx%2FWI2PMKvweZGgzxKj%2BKfQ5qY92TvZpcm%2BlO67sopDrMjPAmCUSv%2FLoQjVw%2FKhOY%2BQUCBzYBoeF6k68buC5HzA5kJ1JnEUhZ2EeoBoCIif6HDavQiwG5U%3D|ampid%3APL_CLK|clp%3A2047675

The new pump you have is designed to have both inlet and outlet pipes connected using olives on metal pipes which then seal inside the ports when tightened up by the treaded sleeves, The inlet one is just a short length of metal fuel pipe so will have no 'stopper' and the rubber joining pipe just clamps onto its smooth end. The items you have shown will not make a seal in the pump ports.... 

There is another model of pump used on Spitfires that looks very similar but uses rubber pipe connections to it:

 

[chrishawley]

Connections. Careful here. The ones you've indicated are NPT (National Pipe Thread) which is most commonly associated with American connections. It's likely that British fitting will be British Standard Pipe (BSP). Some NPT sizes are so similar to their counterpart BSP sizes as to appear indistinguishable - but the thread is subtly different and will leak.

Worth a look at (for nut and olive connection)

https://www.chriswitor.com/proddetail.php?prod=306570CN

Can be tedious sorting out pipe fittings and getting to grips with particulars, but necessary. I've got one where it's 1/4 inch pipe on one side of the pump and 5/16 on the other. 

 

[Quack]

Oh Christ okay, thanks for letting me know, I’ll look for the proper ones. Probably would be easier to just buy smaller rubber pipe to fit…

[daverclasper]

20 hours ago, johny said:

You might want to keep the new pump as a quick replacement? The valves in them can fail quite easily (both must seal correctly) although you might get an early warning first with fuel starvation at high speeds/loads...

I assume it will always be a "running weak situation", as that would be logical?

[Quack]

Well i decided to use the new pump anyway, the old pump can be my backup.

Bringing back this previous point though...the difference in length and shape of the arms is concerning. I do feel like it's possible that i have the wrong pump and this may be affecting the issue somewhat. If anything would it not increase the pressure at which the pump operates by the arm being too long?

 

[johny]

10 minutes ago, daverclasper said:

I assume it will always be a "running weak situation", as that would be logical?

well it usually presents itself as severe misfiring/loss of power at the highest loads Dave because as more fuel is being sucked out through the carb jet than is coming in to the float chamber the level falls below the jet entry holes and air is drawn instead. Then as soon as the engine load goes down the fuel level recovers and normal running resumes...

[johny]

3 minutes ago, Quack said:

Well i decided to use the new pump anyway, the old pump can be my backup.

Bringing back this previous point though...the difference in length and shape of the arms is concerning. I do feel like it's possible that i have the wrong pump and this may be affecting the issue somewhat. If anything would it not increase the pressure at which the pump operates by the arm being too long?

The arm length doesnt matter as its where the cam lobe makes contact with it that counts. The new arm is a slightly different angle but once installed it will be resting on the cam and its angle of movement the same as the original.

The output pressure may well end up being higher than before and youll have to see if its too much and needs reducing with a spacer gasket....

[Quack]

Just come across this post in a facebook group with the exact pump i have 😂 not filling me with confidence. Will try both pumps soon with airtight setup and see if new one needs a spacer.

[johny]

well if youre worried use the original as youve proved 100% that works havent you so then any problem will be down to air ingress... 

[Quack]

Yeah it works manually, havent been able to check yet if it works when installed but praying that it does when i get the next chance to test!

[johny]

Both Rimmers and Paddocks sell the same new pump and cant believe all theyve sold dont work - even they would have to do something about it!

I suppose its always possible that some engine blocks are different and the longer arm hits something internal before resting on the cam. Can you see inside with a mirror?

 

[Pete Lewis]

the long arm pump does need a thick plastic heat spacer with that long arm fitted direct to the block the pumpstroke will always be at the bottom of its operational stroke and you  pump diddy squat 

2nd test use the prime lever it probably wont do anything regardless of the cam lobe position its already fully down

it has to have a spacer    only used as OE on 1500 spits  

you have the wrong pump 

pete

[johny]

I previously posted a pic of the 1500 Spit long arm spacer type pump Pete and thats not what we have here!

[Quack]

Okay making notes as I go:

today I first tried Jerry can > filter > old pump. The pump fits on with barely any resistance whatsoever.

I manually pumped some fuel in to the filter. Note that I was able to use the manual pump whilst it was installed on the engine block.

Took the hose off at the carb at sucked fuel through to the carb.

started up the engine and it ran for about a minute or so. The fuel pump was pumping. gave it some revs and then it just idled until it died.

next I tried Jerry can > filter > new pump

fitting it on had a LOT of resistance compared to the old pump.

I cannot operate the manual pump lever whilst this new pump is installed, it does nothing.

Sucked fuel through at the carb again, however this time it was a real struggle to get the fuel to the carb, I had to suck for ages until it finally bubbled on through.

Started the car, it struggles to start then kicks in for maybe 3 - 5 seconds. I managed to quickly look at the filter and it appeared that the pump was working again somewhat, I took a video of me trying to start and Rev before dying, using the new pump.

all in all it seems like…the pump, nor fuel lines are the issue. Right back at the start of the thread again! 😒 currently completely out of ideas of the issue.

 

[johny]

I would forget about the new pump for the time being as this introduces another variable.

Weve settled the old pump works manually so now you need to spin the engine (with ignition disabled) with the fuel pipe disconnected at the carbs and check a good flow is pumped into a container👍

[KevinR]

Can we please have a photo of the pump mounted on the engine block - need to understand if you are using a spacer or not.

To me, the old pump looks like a short lever pump that does NOT require the spacer between the pump and the block, and the new pump looks like a long lever pump that DOES require the spacer

 

[Quack]

Yeah the old pump doesn’t have a spacer. I wanted to check the new pump one last time before disregarding. You’re correct in saying the new one probably needs a spacer but not a problem as the old one seems to work when installed.

beloe is a video of the fuel coming out to the carb but going in to a container, I’m not certain what the flow is meant to look like

i also attached a video of the fuel filter with the old pump, (note that I’m not revving at all the car is doing that on its own until it eventually cuts out) just incase that shows anything useful to diagnosis

 

 

 

 

[Wagger]

I have tried to stay 'Out' of this one, however found that impossible so:-

It is very easy to get either pump on the wrong side of the cam and it will not pump if fitted wrongly.

The short lever version fits on the outer side of the cam. The long one goes behind and needs the spacer.

I have the glass bowl one and can unassemble the top in situ by removing the bowl and the six screws holding the diaphragm.

If you check this with no fuel in the line spinning he starter by using the button under the bonnet on the solenoid, you will see the diaphragm rising and falling when the pump is fitted correctly. The diaphram should move about 1/4 in up and down.

If it only wobbles slightly, then it is on the wrong side of the cam (Short lever) or needs a thicker spacer (long lever).

On my car, a short piece of hose under it was collapsing under vacuum when the pipe was dry. I had to prime the system using an electric pump between tank outlet and the steel pipe leaving the boot. Had me going for half a day. That was a temporary measure. I am now waiting til I am fit enough to replace the pipe from back to front.

Hope that helps.

[johny]

7 minutes ago, Quack said:

Yeah the old pump doesn’t have a spacer. I wanted to check the new pump one last time before disregarding. You’re correct in saying the new one probably needs a spacer but not a problem as the old one seems to work when installed.

beloe is a video of the fuel coming out to the carb but going in to a container, I’m not certain what the flow is meant to look like

i also attached a video of the fuel filter with the old pump, (note that I’m not revving at all the car is doing that on its own until it eventually cuts out) just incase that shows anything useful to diagnosis

No that flow coming out of the carb feed pipe isnt very good. Whats it like on manual lever, good spurts?

[Quack]

Manual spurts, still seems to be a bit of a break in the middle where it dribbles a bit?

 

oh and @KevinR I’ve attached a picture of the pump too.

[Quack]

17 minutes ago, Wagger said:

I have tried to stay 'Out' of this one, however found that impossible so:-

It is very easy to get either pump on the wrong side of the cam and it will not pump if fitted wrongly.

The short lever version fits on the outer side of the cam. The long one goes behind and needs the spacer.

I have the glass bowl one and can unassemble the top in situ by removing the bowl and the six screws holding the diaphragm.

If you check this with no fuel in the line spinning he starter by using the button under the bonnet on the solenoid, you will see the diaphragm rising and falling when the pump is fitted correctly. The diaphram should move about 1/4 in up and down.

If it only wobbles slightly, then it is on the wrong side of the cam (Short lever) or needs a thicker spacer (long lever).

On my car, a short piece of hose under it was collapsing under vacuum when the pipe was dry. I had to prime the system using an electric pump between tank outlet and the steel pipe leaving the boot. Had me going for half a day. That was a temporary measure. I am now waiting til I am fit enough to replace the pipe from back to front.

Hope that helps.

Not a bad idea to check the diaphragm, I’ll take the top off and crank it now and show you how much it moves