Herald 1147cc Intake/Exhaust manifolds

[Eric Smith]

Hi guys, I have been here to you before to ask questions and seek advice - I am here again asking what may seem to you Muppet questions but here goes!

My Standard 8 is fitted with a Herald 1147cc engine, it is still fitted with the original Solex downdraft carburettor, intake manifold and exhaust manifold combination.

The cars engine bay will not accept Twin SU’s without moving the two hydraulic master cylinders, I really don’t want to do that. I am also having little luck getting close to finding the intake and exhaust manifolds I need due to cost or availability - so before I start splashing out lots of cash -

Has anyone had any success converting the cast iron downdraft intake manifolds to side draft?

I have several locally based precision engineering and welding companies who I think would do the conversion for me but would my idea work well and safely?

If the idea has legs I have 2 SU HS4’s which need restoring but would that be overkill, if the HS4 is too big for the engine is the HS2 the better solution? Any other ideas?

Last question - previously someone mentioned motorcycle carburettors - could I please ask for your thoughts and advice.

Many thanks guys, and I look forward to read your replies.

Merry Christmas

Eric

[Colin Lindsay]

In the most basic form without going deeply into power increases and other upgrades needed to get the most out of performance (which I am not qualified for other than a try-it-and-see amateur) what you need is to meld the 1200 downdraught with the 13/60 sidedraught so that the ports match the 1147 head but it takes the Stromberg carb (or a single SU). If you have a company that can make such a manifold I'd guess that it'll work and you can experiment with different carbs to get the best mixture. Any carb from a similar sized engine, such as Ford Anglia or Morris Minor, will suit. Problem here is that the 1200 manifold is cast and the 13/60 is alloy so you can't just cut and reweld. In the past I've cut the cast manifold into two parts, so that I can use the exhaust section but mess about with alternative intake manifolds - photos attached - although to be honest all mine were twin carb such as the Alexander twin CD125 conversion.

A manifold adaptor for SU might work if you have the underbonnet room?

 

[Eric Smith]

Hi Colin - many thanks for your reply, I liked how you kept it simple for me, simple is good - my teachers always said I was simple!

Question: The idea about the Morris Minor carburettor and adapter - is that to convert the down draft to SU?

Am I barking up the wrong tree over carburettors - would ditching the Solex for a Webber improve things?

My 1147 engine had been been rebuilt with new pistons etc, buying a bigger engine is not out of the question but I would like to stay with this engine but get every drop of power out of it before I go for mor cc’s

Eric

[Pete Lewis]

unless you are modifying the cam/valves /compression fitting a webber will just use up more fuel for no improvement

using a angled adaptor to fit a SU or Stromberg  is a more suitable move 

but with out other engine mods wont gain much in the way of Horses .

pity but often  good ideas end up with a headache .

Edited December 27, 2023 by Pete Lewis

[Casper]

Eric,

there were several iterations of the 1200 engine, with the big change to a cam with the same specs as the 1200 Spitfires .  Change point at engine number GA178101HE Nov 1964.  1200s were often fitted with Weber conversions by amateur rally tiypes (and normally coupled with cam changes).  No idea if/how they improved power but as I understand it they were more trouble than they were worth.  Similar with other "go-faster" goodies.  Louder exhausts and 'sports' air filters gave a louder intake and exhaust sound but probably made litte the difference.

There is not a lot wrong with the simple but effective 30HSE1 downdraught Solex, but you may consider (subject to space) a twin 1 1/4" SU setup using Spitfire 4 or Mk 2 manifold (also needs a seperate inlet/exhaust mainifolds).  Probably more power at higher revs but of course the setup is more complicated and there may be space issues.

Perhaps, if your engine is a late one a 12/50 manifold would give improvemments (according to ST: 51 - 48 = 3 BHP = 3/48 * 100 = 6.25% improvement.  If your engine is an early one, you may have some problems getting improvements.

Good luck anyway

I'v jsut been notified Pete has posted.  I wonder what he says

C.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Casper

[Eric Smith]

Hi and thanks

My questions are sadly necessary because I know the basics but I have been out of the game for a long time and I need help.

My engine is GA180841HE, so it’s a late one and as I said previously it’s only recently been rebuilt (relatively speaking) so I would like to give the engine a go before I risk spend money on another bigger engine.

I would like to get rid of the down draft carburettor and have it side draft if there is a decent benefit, sadly twin SU’s are no good without a lot of changes to the engine bay so a single SU, Stromburg or Webber all have potential, even bike carbs if they are ok but it’s getting inlet and exhaust manifolds are the problem.

Advice on manifolds and where from would be helpful?

All of you who have offered advice so far along with your help and experience is much appreciated.

Eric

[Pete Lewis]

think we have covered most likely stalls  ,  you can do a lot of messing , empty  the wallet and just get sleepless nights 

with very little change in base horsepower  ,  its do a lot or ......do very little 

in reasonable fettle a std 1200 will buzz along willingly with a smile 

we have a original one owner 1200  now with a 3.63 diff and he keeps up or even leads any outings with no lack of horses to impede the faster cars  its fine 

if you want more power  its probably better to get a more powerful machine in the first place 

when no messing about is needed ???

Pete

Pete

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

19 hours ago, Eric Smith said:

Hi Colin - many thanks for your reply, I liked how you kept it simple for me, simple is good - my teachers always said I was simple!

Question: The idea about the Morris Minor carburettor and adapter - is that to convert the down draft to SU?

Am I barking up the wrong tree over carburettors - would ditching the Solex for a Webber improve things?

My 1147 engine had been been rebuilt with new pistons etc, buying a bigger engine is not out of the question but I would like to stay with this engine but get every drop of power out of it before I go for mor cc’s

Eric

Morning again Eric; hope you had a good Christmas.

As Pete and Casper say, unless you're adding hotter cams or porting heads you'll see little to no improvement from a different carb other than the availability of spare parts. For 'messing about' with 1200 Heralds, for no other reason than seeing if it could be done, I used the adaptor shown in the photo to fit a Stromberg from a 13/60 to the original 1200 manifold, and tested that - it flooded one night due to rich mixture, off it came again and was never refitted. Easy to fit and connect the cables to, but no real gain as all else was standard. That was the same problem with the Alexander twin CD125 setup I tried on the 1200 Estate; no real gain and running too rich. I was just messing about for simplicity's sake so reckoned that any comparable car with a 1000 - 1200cc engine would have a suitable carb that might be better than the Solex so tried both Morris Minor and Ford Anglia, the reason being that one of them has an angled float chamber which when fitted to the SU adaptor in the photo then hangs in the proper orientation. Bought, but never fitted!

I'd reckon the easiest experiment is to get hold of the twin-intake manifolds from either an early Spitfire, or an early Herald, and have a metalworker adapt them to single carb, probably Stromberg. They're alloy so will be easier to work with than a cast Herald version. Herald left below, Spitfire right.

  

 

[Eric Smith]

To Colin L, Pete L and Casper - many thanks again for your help and advice.

I have one belief which has never let me down and that is “Talk to people who know” I always taken advice and tried to work with it.

The car I want to build, is the one I wanted when I was a teenager and worked in a garage in the early 70’s when my daily ride was a rapidly rotting white 1965 Spitfire with red hard top (BEA 98C).

Hot Hatches did not exist, so it was up to you to do things like add stickers and go faster stripes because they added at least 50mph to any car. Strangely removing bumpers then putting lots of spot lights and additional stuff including switches which did nothing also added power and performance but the height of raw power improvements was the addition of a blue sun strip on the windscreen.

I will be happy with my Standard 8 doing at least 150mph but actually doing 60 as long as it’s fun for me, makes most people smile and the purists a bit peeved.

Thanks again - happy new year.

Eric

[Colin Lindsay]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/276163705249?hash=item404ca3b9a1:g:~esAAOSwLmplOlHM&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwHbRL9q1lELu%2BeRfLoqrgtB0VYPZIgp18oxcofEFUL%2FLnglbqCMrJvbl3DylL59LKzxnbGEcciDsg6G%2FAoLrm6RIJNLmZmIaVafW9ETw2u3QC%2FcRYOHXx%2FHjQrbVE4VcnnpOTUPbL56xYHUasShNKB%2BILBrE6W2SB%2FkgbL%2F3pWtOX2B%2BYipSlIzq1CK%2BkyWM3ElaYsBRu2lOd%2FOB2HIIh4Ni3nRm5k3zwb3TO54utdUHlO8iHyMBTA49ZB9%2FqVM3lg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-jHnNqWYw

 

Interesting.... but do you have the under-bonnet room for it?

Incidentally you've touched a chord with the mention of go-faster add-ons. The young drivers of today will never know the feeling of adding pin-stripes, or two huge spotlamps, or a rear window louvre... wheel spacers, or even additional speakers in the rear shelf... (huge oil-cooled ones) and of course you've mentioned the windscreen sunshade - I always remember Club Triumph had them but not the TSSC. Mine was gold, to match my little Daihatsu runabout in the early 1980s... spot the striped seat covers, the Feu Orange air freshener hanging from the mirror, spot lamps with 50,000,000 feet of additional wiring, and the sunstrip reading XTE as the car was a Charade XTE. No idea what that meant but it was better spec than the XG. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Colin Lindsay
Nostalgia...

[Steve P]

You`ll never beat my first car, a standard 850 Mini Minor, I covered the whole dash in Black fur. And put a Peco silencer on it, must have added 50bhp at least.(not).

S

[Eric Smith]

To Colin L and Steve P Thanks for your replies, both of you made me laugh, many thanks for your support and help.

Being a baby boomer and owning a car in the distant past has left me with a vast collection of memories about things like body rot, breakdowns, endless running repairs and Car Accessory Shops.

Saturdays were often lost to hours standing in and buying stuff in Accessory Shops, then Sundays was all about chasing rust bubbles and rot, fixing things which just fell off or making things to get out of a problem so you could go to work to fund even more repairs, insurance and petrol.

If all of the above was not bad enough, there were all of the delightful arguments with parents and members of the opposite sex about the amount of time we spent working on the b****y car.

I know why I did it then but why am I doing it now?

Aghhhhh nostalgia!

Thanks Again

Eric

 

[Pete Lewis]

simple  its contagious

many of us have the same memories  ...brilliant  

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

14 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

simple  its contagious

many of us have the same memories  ...brilliant  

Pete

This is why the owners of modern cars, or EV drivers, who gatecrash shows and forums and go on endlessly about how superior their super-safe and economical their cars are, or those who advocate modernising old cars, don't realise there's a lot more to them than just the mechanics. There's a whole era of personal history attached.

Those of us who have ever stood in a garage like this will understand:

[Steve P]

Looks like an old forge.

S

[Eric Smith]

Hi guys - Happy New Year!

Re the photograph:

There were garage workshops like this all over the place when I first started work in the early 70’s, where I worked was not far off it, the staff room was a health hazard in itself let alone the complete lack of PPE and not much Health and Safety.

On New Years day I had a look in the front of a classic car garage in Castletown in Derbyshire which was open, it was full of old cars, mostly pre war but it was just like the photograph - full of stuff and lots of lovely honest grime but it was lovely to see, made me feel good.

There should be a list somewhere on the net which lists the remaining old factories, workshops, iron mongers, black smiths shops and garages where time has stood still, then we could go on pilgrimages like battlefield tours - I would go.

Best wishes to all

Eric