Can't get the head off

[Dave the tram]

Been a member for a few years but been away. My Mk 3 still drives on daily, especially now zero road tax, but for one engine problem. It still coughs back through the rear carb occasionally if revved above 3k in higher gears or pulling uphill. Now has electronic ignition and had carbs rebuilt and all professionally set up, plus new fuel pump and checked fuel flow. Otherwise starts and runs well. Clearly suspect the old head, compression a bit down on rear cylinders and leaks away quickly. Would have gone for recon head but it won't come off. The guy that did the work ( a classic specialist near Chesterfield who races MGs) had the car suspended by the head overnight even. Any ideas, otherwise it's a full recon unit? While that might be a good idea as I think it's the original engine with no record of rebuild, I want to avoid that expense if possible. Cheers, Dave.

[Pete Lewis]

you need to use a stud extractor  more like the chuck ones that will allow drive from an impact wrench  the studs corrode on their bores   had a 2000 off the ground some 25 years ago for the same 

 

i have in desperation manage to lift a head enough to get a hacksaw blade in , cover it in card to protect the head and block faces , cut the stud and remove the head

the old threaded bit will probably unscrew with fingers and the stuck stud can be slogged out with a punch and club hammer 

 

not a recommended but when the poohs in the fan desperate times need desperate measures .. this fix will actually work

 

grease the new studs on refitting,

 

Pete

[JohnD]

Plus one for Pete's advice!

You might be able to get the studs out by the double nut tecnique (extra nut on top, locked to the original, use the bottom one to turn it out) of else WELD the nut to the top of the stud. You're goi g to use new studs anyway, yes?

John

[Pete Lewis]

and +2  always use new washers from a good supplier , soft ones deform and you loose torque

 

if you have new studs the nuts are not std, must be HT or the torqure will just strip them easily

 

a std nut  takes 31lbsft               these  head nuts   take   42-46lbft

 

on refitting new studs clean out the threaded holes with an air line , the studs should have a slot cut in them to allow oily stuff out , if not the stud will create a hydraulic

pressure when screwed in and it can and does blow the block to bits 

 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

Remove the spark plug and push a length of rope into the chamber while the piston is at the lowest point - feed it in until the chamber is full then turn the engine over. This may help push the head up and off while damaging nothing. 

[Unkel Kunkel]

It's  going to be yer studs - the head is going to be "stuck" because of one or more of the studs being rusted in the head.The gasket doesn't stick  to this extent.

 

 

So,as  per Pete's advice, removing the studs will be the logical route to follow even if this may require stud remover ,double nuts on the stud (if there is room) ,welding a nut to the stud, patiently drilling out stud remnants but it is  ultimately the least likely to cause damage.

 

Other things   worth trying are the spinning engine on starter with plugs in.

I have head of someone running an engine (wasn't a triumph however )  with cyl. h  nuts removed over several cycles from cold to hot

Heard advocated  penetrating oil down the threads made from 50% acetone and 50%ATF

 

Never tried the   oil in cylinder or the "rope trick"  for, perhaps unwarranted ,fear of hydraulic damage- or the rope equivalent certainly I would only turn the engine by hand not spin it on the starter.

 

Finally,I heard of an unusual proceedure to prevent  rusting of studs in aluminium heads  which involved boiling  the studs in linseed oil before use!

 

Good Luck!

[Waynebaby]

I can vouch for the efficacy of Pete's approach. I was in the same situation in December and making no progress with the studs in-situ. All bar two of the studs came out with the double nut technique but the last two only finally yielded to a stud extractor and a mains powered impact driver. Once the last stud was out the head practically slid off.

 

Wayne

[Pete Lewis]

The rope trick can bend a con rod, there is the ability to seriuosly overload the rod when approaching tdc

think johnD had a nice photo of a little over exhuberance on the crank which easilly bent a rod

 

And if stuck wont lift the head up 4 " of rusted stud.

 

if you can get a small gap the cut it off is a quick solution takes about 2 mins to cut the stud

 

Make a safe handle by wrap the blade end with masking tape , slide the blade through bit of kellogs packet to save teeth damage to the faces .... and its off

[Pete Lewis]

http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/tools/hand-tools/laser-impact-stud-extractor-1-2-drive

 

I have used one of these for years without fail it takes an impact wrench and seriuosly tightens up

without damage,

I have a 1/2" battery wrench and va va room its shifts mountains

 

hacksaw blades are easier to find , but many diy outlets have hacksaw blades of chinese wonder steel for chocolate

 

pete

[JohnD]

You''re right, Pete, but I can't find it among my 'attachments', so here it is. 
item No.1 in my Black Museum

 

 

DO NOT on anyone's say so, fill the bore with a liquid and use the starter.

Apart from the above, all that happens is there is a spurt of oil between head and block, and the head is maybe half a millimeter higher.

Take the studs out.

 

John

 

 

[Unkel Kunkel]

That graphically makes the point, JohnD !

 

 That impact stud remover looks the job, Pete- I  didn't know there was such a thing.I learn something every time I look on here.

[Pete Lewis]

Very much designed fornremoval , to fit a studnyou need to close the chuck with spanner

to gripmthe stud it then lets go when its tight,

 

undoing makes it tighen and if stubborn needs a spanner to undo the chuck to extract the stud

 

had mine years and the manufacturer does spares as I needed some new jaw springs .

 

a 1/2"ratchet works as well , doesnt have to be 'powered'

 

pete

[Dave the tram]

Thanks Pete/everyone. This got a cascade of useful tips and experience. Yes, 2 studs wouldn't come out so will use the impact stud remover. I'd heard of the other methods including the rope trick but didn't fancy it in the end. I have a friendly, old school garage man I used to go to who never failed with difficult tasks so might ask if he has one-off these - he will probably have much experience of this I suspect.

Cheers

Dave

[JohnD]

Dave,

If the studs have stuck that badly, then they have corroded as well.

Best re-assemble with NEW studs, and double-nutting stresses the threads something rotten anyway.

So NEW studs, and there's no harm in destroying their use as studs by welding a nut on top.  The extreme heat will help it release as well.

If you don't have welding gear, discuss with your "old school garage man" who surely must.

(Although if hanging it up by the head was  he could think of .......)

 

John

[Dave the tram]

John

Different garage man - perhaps the one I should have gone to in the first place. I remember the first time I went to him we decided we needed a part, at which he said, I think I might have one of those in the back - 'what for 40 year old Triumph! ' Another time the comment was, ' oh well I can make one of those'. I reckon welding a nut onto the stud sounds a good no nonsense approach. I'll let you know how I get on.

Dave

[Dave the tram]

Before I do everything possible to get the head off and fit a new one, Does everyone agree that this is probably a valve issue, having fitted electronic ignition and got timing set up right, rebuilt carbs and set up right, new fuel pump and checked flow from tank. Starts and runs great, and did 500 mile round trip at the weekend ( yes 500!), which was remarkably uneventful, eating up the miles with little fuss despite not having full performance.

 

However, it starts to run out of power above about 3,500 and if rev high on full throttle or pull hard (especially uphill) on full throttle, after a few seconds it starts to loose power, then coughs back through the carb, giving a foul smell of half burnt fuel. When we did the carbs it was the rear one that had soot marks in it, and it's the rear cylinders that show lower compression and a quick loss of compression when tested- not sure of the figures.

 

Also, where best to go for a standard recondition unleaded head? - looked at Qulliers recently.

 

Finally, looking to make it a bit quieter with some insulation ( for those 500 mile journeys) but it has a strange resonant drone that oscillates. When doing 50 to 80 and under power, the deep drone rises and falls steadily every 3 seconds, but seems to go when you lift off the power. Never got any worse and wondered if prop shaft imbalance. All this combines with general engine clatter, a sligh wine from the diff ( reconditioned) and the tweety in e clutch - so fitting the radio was a big of a waste of time really!

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[KevinR]

Also, where best to go for a standard recondition unleaded head? - looked at Qulliers recently.

 

Try the TSSC Club Shop - but login first to get TSSC member pricing.