Colin Posted July 19 Report Share Posted July 19 Chaps, Still feeling peevish and very silly from not having realised the heater fan SUCKS air into the matrix (and therefore distribution box), I now run the risk of being awarded 'Klutz of the Year', which I do not mind in the least, if I can find an answer to my latest conundrum. Let me explain:- after all the renovation/recommissioning/restoration works of the last 5 years and 6 months' worth of chassis replacement shenanigans, I realised practically the last thing not functioning in the car was the manual windscreen washer unit. Pushing the plunger took no water to the spray nozzles. This has to be the simplest item in the car, right? As the car had stood a good number of years 2008-2017, I thought hard water deposits might be clogging the network. So I cleansed the nozzles, inspected the connecting tubing and all seemed clear. The non-return valve in the water bottle was a bit suspect and I guessed maybe the rubber diaphragm in the unit may have perforated. So I bought a new non-return valve and a whole new diaphragm unit. Re-attached everything and . . . . nothing. Not a sausage. From what I can see, when depressed, no water is being delivered to the diaphragm unit from the bottle (this tube is also clear and good - no blockages), and therefore, certainly not to the screen nozzles. How can I have got this SO wrong?? I even reversed the pipes on the diaphragm unit out of frustration. Of course, no luck there, either. I note the diaphragm input-output teats are of differing diameter - as are the 'draw-in' to diaphragm, 'push-out' to nozzle tubes, strangely notated 'S' and 'J'. BUT - What the heck am I doing wrong??!!?? Best, Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted July 19 Report Share Posted July 19 I reckon its Suction and Jet and that fits with the sizes of those connections although as theres no valves in it should work both ways. If you blow into both there should obviously be no leakage, blow in one and air should come out of the other... If thats all ok then the problem is either air being drawn into the system somewhere or non return valves not working (theres two with one in the bottle and the other in the discharge pipework in the splitter T connector). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted July 19 Report Share Posted July 19 with anew bellows and new bottle valve then its the lack of or not working valve that is somewhere as part of the screen jet with its extension peices on H and V these are a Looong jet to pass thro' the skins of the baulkhead inside each is a simple ball one way valve the noted S and J is futile they all come from a common innards of the inert bellows so dis may vary but its just does matter which way round , but if anyone asks its S and J you need to undo the nut holding the jet assy and give it a good kicking Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted July 19 Report Share Posted July 19 yes think this is the discharge NRV, part number 618120, and its available at Rimmerbros. You can suck/blow on the two pipes to test each valve... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 19 Author Report Share Posted July 19 Ah! OK! I HAVE NOT got right into the middle splitter (what you describe as the NRV just prior to the nozzles. It's in a pig of a position, as far as I'm concerned. Prolly just dried stuck over the years of non-use ?? I shall access it after going away. I thought it was just a 'T' splitter, directing to both nozzles. But hadn't thought about it being an NRV . . . thanks very much!! 😉 Best, Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted July 19 Report Share Posted July 19 That NRV is marked USA only, never found one on any of my cars so that means I probably threw it out if I ever had one. As the guys have already posted above, the bellows has no in or out; the two nozzles just pump out when pressed and suck in when released and it's the non-return valve in the washer bottle that directs the flow forwards out of the other nozzle. The little ball valve in each washer jet that Pete mentions just stops the water from returning all the way back to the bottle, hence less pumping every time. Try priming the system by sucking clean water up one of the tubes until the bellows is full, and see if that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 19 Author Report Share Posted July 19 Good thought, Colin. I did wonder if it was an 'airlock' issue (if you want to call it that!). Just thought I'd progressed further into my (clearly) impending 'Durrrrdom' 😅 Best, C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted July 19 Report Share Posted July 19 39 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: That NRV is marked USA only, never found one on any of my cars so that means I probably threw it out if I ever had one. As the guys have already posted above, the bellows has no in or out; the two nozzles just pump out when pressed and suck in when released and it's the non-return valve in the washer bottle that directs the flow forwards out of the other nozzle. The little ball valve in each washer jet that Pete mentions just stops the water from returning all the way back to the bottle, hence less pumping every time. Try priming the system by sucking clean water up one of the tubes until the bellows is full, and see if that helps. But there has to be a second valve somewhere so if not in the T maybe somewhere in the nozzles but the ball in them is just to allow the jet to be directed to where you want. Anyway easy to test as I say just by sucking on the discharge pipe - if you can then its not working correctly and youll never be able to pump anything... Ive never experience airlock as a good pump and valves should pump air just as well as liquid👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted July 19 Report Share Posted July 19 Valve also shown for other Spitfires and GT6 but strangely not Herald or Vitesse: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 19 Author Report Share Posted July 19 Thanks, fellas. Duly noted. Further investigation at the earliest poss oppy! C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 14 hours ago, johny said: But there has to be a second valve somewhere so if not in the T maybe somewhere in the nozzles but the ball in them is just to allow the jet to be directed to where you want. Anyway easy to test as I say just by sucking on the discharge pipe - if you can then its not working correctly and youll never be able to pump anything... Ive never experience airlock as a good pump and valves should pump air just as well as liquid👍 The directional ball with the hole through is for the jet; the non-return ball is inside the nozzle body and sinks to the bottom thereby blocking off the water pipe. Made of glass so it doesn't rust and very easy to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 yes remove the whole long jet assy and you can strip it to clean it out dont do it on grass you will never find colins glass balls Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said: The directional ball with the hole through is for the jet; the non-return ball is inside the nozzle body and sinks to the bottom thereby blocking off the water pipe. Made of glass so it doesn't rust and very easy to lose. Didnt know that! And that must be only herald/vitesse as NRV just listed for Spit/GT6? Still isnt access a problem in both set ups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 20 Author Report Share Posted July 20 Thanks! I can see I'm going to have to go big on this job. I don't think I've ever dropped the screen nozzles and whatever's on the underside down into the car - it's all a bit congested under there (stereos, looms, wiring etc.). So I'm intrigued about these non-return balls! NOT in the left-right 'T' direction distribution piece, then, but in whatever consists of the upright joints leading to the iutside nozzles?? Maybe someone can marker-circle where these bad boys are on one of those diagrams previously posted?? 🤔🙂 Cheers, C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 20 Author Report Share Posted July 20 And so, even if dismantled in the car, losing a glass ball is easily done and my pen magnet is rendered useless!! 🤣🤣 C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 The balls would be in components GWW802 in the diagram above. However test them first before dismantling loads! Im sure mine have never been apart in 50+ years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 there is nothing stopping you from fitting a Tee with its balls included this is the orig long jet holder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 Probably unique to the older cars ie Herald and Vitesse, but maybe some of the Standard models too? In Pete's photo you can see how the jet narrows at the bottom, at the base of the threaded section. The ball fits the upper bit and rises to the top when the washers are used - the pipe is wide enough so that it does not affect the water flow - but then sinks down to where it blocks the narrower part and so the water cannot drain back and is at the top of the pipe ready for the next pump. It would probably drain back eventually if not used for a long period but works very well on a short term basis. I also found this T-piece incorporating a non-return valve; I wonder if it is used on the UK Spitfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 10 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: Probably unique to the older cars ie Herald and Vitesse, but maybe some of the Standard models too? In Pete's photo you can see how the jet narrows at the bottom, at the base of the threaded section. The ball fits the upper bit and rises to the top when the washers are used - the pipe is wide enough so that it does not affect the water flow - but then sinks down to where it blocks the narrower part and so the water cannot drain back and is at the top of the pipe ready for the next pump. It would probably drain back eventually if not used for a long period but works very well on a short term basis Not just drain back colin as NRV is essential to the operation of the pump - without on each stroke the water just goes backwards and forwards along the discharge pipe😞 Same with mechanical fuel pump where the valve each side of the diaphragm must seal well or no go juice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 8 minutes ago, johny said: Not just drain back colin as NRV is essential to the operation of the pump - without on each stroke the water just goes backwards and forwards along the discharge pipe😞 Same with mechanical fuel pump where the valve each side of the diaphragm must seal well or no go juice.... True. It's a great, simple idea though, I can just imagine the poor ball flying up the jet then being sucked back down again at some speed. I've fitted an NRV to mine anyway, in the washer bottle - belt and braces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 20 Author Report Share Posted July 20 Agh! You know what I'm now thinking . . . The car was renovated & re-painted, so presumably washer nozzles were unscrewed/removed to accommodate that. Might anything have been lost as a result? The fella was my son's age and know little of the detail of the car whikst having done a cracking job for the price . . . Poor old Colin's crystal balls . . . 😔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 20 Author Report Share Posted July 20 And re-the long jet holder, I've removed the ourlter surface nozzle before and those short pieces come away easily enough. I then worried that what was under the dash would drop & I'd lose the lot and anything within (crystal balls or not!). Do I have to be very careful those long jeys stay upright as the whole assembly is removed (in case of bits falling out; getting lost?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: True. It's a great, simple idea though, I can just imagine the poor ball flying up the jet then being sucked back down again at some speed. I've fitted an NRV to mine anyway, in the washer bottle - belt and braces! But the one in the washer bottle is for the suction side Colin, yes you need one there but you also need one (or more) in the discharge side. Its not one or the other! Both must seal so that pushing the plunger in the liquid cant go back to the bottle (NRV1) so is forced out the nozzles and then when the plunger is released the internal spring pulls the diaphragm back but liquid cant return from the nozzles (NRV2) so its sucked from the bottle👍 Edited July 20 by johny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 4 hours ago, johny said: But the one in the washer bottle is for the suction side Colin, yes you need one there but you also need one (or more) in the discharge side. Its not one or the other! Both must seal so that pushing the plunger in the liquid cant go back to the bottle (NRV1) so is forced out the nozzles and then when the plunger is released the internal spring pulls the diaphragm back but liquid cant return from the nozzles (NRV2) so its sucked from the bottle👍 True and correct, but in some Heralds it's in the bottle cap itself, a brass assembly with a short pipe on one side and the long feed pipe on the other; I've added a second one on the end of the pipe as mine is suspect. On others it's inserted into the end of the pipe which is one piece and bends at right angles through the cap, others seem to have none at all - PO removal, maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 Right so theres one in the bottle plus the NRVs in the jets, got it👍Must admit I prefer the design with the discharge NRV in the T as one valve is less likely to go wrong than one of 2 which doubles the odds of failure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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