Ducatos/

[Wagger]

OK it is not a car but is my second most used vehicle. 2007 Ducato motorhome, 2.2 Ford engine. It has burned out two starter motors since May. Both occasions were on a hot day after parking up for lunch. It turns ot that the starter failed to disengage after starting when hot.

It has taken a while to diagnose why, but the key starter switch did not go back to the 'Run' position after starting. I operated the switch umpteen times on an ordinary day with no failure. However, on a hot day, it failed to return on the fifth attempt. One does not know this has happened until too late. The battery light flashes on and off, then comes on permanently accompanied by a foul smell from under the bonnet.

Circuit diagrams show start solenoid operated directly from the ignition switch. No relay present. Therefore, the switch either welds in or the mechanism on the column sticks. I am going to fit a separate start button. The only other fault that could cause this is insulation breakdown between main terminal on the starter, and the solenoid tag. Fiat forims do not appear to describe this fault, but some of you guys may have witnessed it.

We have had five motorhomes losing very little on resale. This one is a 'Money pit'. It will be our last, I fear.

So far this year, this vehicle has been out of action for six weeks of the season.

[Straightsix]

Few years back I had an early 5.7 Chevy classic car that suffered starter motor issues during hot weather too.

Something called heat sink,wrapping the starter motor in an insulation blanket helped, or fitting a smaller high torque starter was another option. A friend shared hot starting issues with his car too, not uncommon I believe?

[Colin Lindsay]

On 12/08/2024 at 18:12, Wagger said:

I operated the switch umpteen times on an ordinary day with no failure. However, on a hot day, it failed to return on the fifth attempt. One does not know this has happened until too late. The battery light flashes on and off, then comes on permanently accompanied by a foul smell from under the bonnet.

Have you identified it as either switch or solenoid? Sounds the same as sometimes (rarely?) happens with Triumphs; the solenoid sticks on and the cables overheat, but is it definitely the starter switch failing to return - in which case I'd swap for something more reliable unless this affects codes etc. but if it's the solenoid can you replace / upgrade the solenoid as well? 

I had a sneak peek at the Fiat Motorhome forums and many of them mention a missing heatshield. The solenoid 'rod' expands in the heat and fails to move as it should. As Straightsix says another, better starter may improve things.

[Wagger]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Have you identified it as either switch or solenoid? Sounds the same as sometimes (rarely?) happens with Triumphs; the solenoid sticks on and the cables overheat, but is it definitely the starter switch failing to return - in which case I'd swap for something more reliable unless this affects codes etc. but if it's the solenoid can you replace / upgrade the solenoid as well? 

I had a sneak peek at the Fiat Motorhome forums and many of them mention a missing heatshield. The solenoid 'rod' expands in the heat and fails to move as it should. As Straightsix says another, better starter may improve things.

You are correct Colin. I read those too.

Diagrams that I have studied show the switch connecting to the start solenoid with no relay involved. The first 'Green Flag' man told me that the switch mechanism sticks mechanically and you would not notice. Hearing a stuck starter above a Ducato Diesel is not easy, and the cab has extra soundproofing in a moho.

Two starters have been written off as a result. I have already obtained a separate start switch with an LED in it. I have copied the circuit and wired it on the bench so that the start swich will light up the LED illuminating 'Press to start' built in label. Pressing that switch will connect to the starter, so all should be fine. Two switches in series should make sure that feed is disconnected. Also, if the column switch does stick, the light will remain 'ON' and I can monitor it.

Of course, if the solenoid sticks, this won't work. I am pretty convinced that is was the column start switch mechanically sticking. My starter has loads of clearance all round, no exhaust near it and there is no cover beneath it. I can, of course, use a freezer spray or pour water over it on a hot day.

I could add a changeover contact to ground the start solenoid feed too.

The only other occurrence that could cause this is insulation breakdown between start solenoid and the big terminal. 5mm apart. Not very likely unless the alternator is generating huge spikes.

On Ducato's anything can happen. Best look for a Mercedes then! I wish.

Edited August 16 by Wagger

[Wagger]

7 hours ago, Straightsix said:

Few years back I had an early 5.7 Chevy classic car that suffered starter motor issues during hot weather too.

Something called heat sink,wrapping the starter motor in an insulation blanket helped, or fitting a smaller high torque starter was another option. A friend shared hot starting issues with his car too, not uncommon I believe?

My B-I-L had a new Vauxhall Vectra in late 1990's. Starter remained engaged due to a switch sticking in. Starter ran like a generator frying wiring, alternator and almost catching fire. His poor daughter was driving it and just about managed to get home.

Mine did this too as proven by watching the two battery voltages in the display above the rear door. I am expecting damaged starter ring and altenator. We won a wee bit on the Thunderball last week, so it may be enough to cover the repairs.

[Wagger]

Just realsed that I may be able to monitor the starter electrically if I can access the wire that goes from solenoid to start winding. Connecting an LED between this and earth, and another to the feed from the ignition switch would allow me to see this in the cab. Both should only illuminate whilst starting.

Does anybody know if the shaft protrudes from the starter when the solenoid is engaged? Bit of a fag, but I could check visually and be ready with a hammer.

Edited August 17 by Wagger

[PeteH]

Are we experiencing yet another “quality control” issue here? The aftermarket is notorious for poor output at present. My Fiat experience was of the later X250. Which itself has problems with EGR’s and a tendency to destroy gear box bearings. I just acquired another Sprinter based Motorhome. Which  I too expect will be our last. Over a metre shorter than the last, I wonder if herself will actually not want the full “kitchen sink” this time😁. We are now limited to 3.5tonne.

Pete

 

 

 

[Wagger]

14 hours ago, PeteH said:

Are we experiencing yet another “quality control” issue here? The aftermarket is notorious for poor output at present. My Fiat experience was of the later X250. Which itself has problems with EGR’s and a tendency to destroy gear box bearings. I just acquired another Sprinter based Motorhome. Which  I too expect will be our last. Over a metre shorter than the last, I wonder if herself will actually not want the full “kitchen sink” this time😁. We are now limited to 3.5tonne.

Pete

 

 

 

I wish you both well PeteH. I have been surprised as to just how big a 3.5 tonne moho can be now. No doubt cheap flimsy flooring and body panels like Swift used around 2007.

The 2001 Rapido that I sold to a nephew (2.8JTD Fiat) is still going strong, after some welding. It has a mere 30,000 miles on it. It was always overweight. I could never get it under 3.4t unladen. It needed re-plating.

[ahebron]

Funnily enough Fiats from the early 70s had ignition switch problems.
But that was I believe because they ran everything through the switch and it would overheat.
I had all lighting go on a dark wet moonless night. 10 minutes later after the switch cooled down the ligths came back on.

[Wagger]

I am collecting this 'Thing' on Tuesday and I am adding two wiring mods asap. A lamp that will indicate voltage present at the solenoid AND a switch in series to isolate it. In fact, it is a combined device, LED built in to a start switch.

However, there is no way of detecting that the starter is mechanically stuck and that is a common fault with some starters when they are hot, apparently. I'll have to live with that possibility.

[Wagger]

Yesterday I managed to accomplish half of the mod. Due to the position of the starter, I could only fit one extra wire instead of two. The solenoid wire connection is very short and I cannot access the terminal nut.

I managed to use an IDC connector to 'T' on the the solenoid feed wire. Then I had problems running the wire into the cab. Had to run it under the engine, tie it up and go through the battery box. Mounted a bi directional LED on the central plastic dash. The LED illuminates ONLY when I turn the key to 'Start' then decays away when the engine runs. At least I can now 'See' if the start switch remains on. At least I can turn off if the fault occurs. Better than doing nothing at all, but not quite as thorough as I wanted.

Next job is fitting a heat shield between the bottom radiator pipe and the solenoid casing. This stays hot longer than the exhaust and is within 3 ins of the solenoid. Some solenoids stick when hot, apparently.

In the rear of the MOHO, a display shows the battery volts. When all is normal. both batteries read 14.2V with the engine running. When the fault was present, the vehicle one read erratically, 11 to 15V. Now, I check it every time I start. Paranioa rules OK!