The mirror

[pugwash]

Hi all, the daft questions commence. The car is a 1981 Spitfire 1500 and is LHD. The passengers side door mirror does not seem to move other than in one plane, I dismantled it and put the half ball into its socket properly and applied a little lubricant then reassembled the mirror without overtightening the spring inside. It now moves more freely but still in one plane, the mirror on the drivers side (LHD remember) moves as one would expect. The reason that this is a problem is because the mirror angles up at an extreme angle - not visible in the image but very visible from the drivers seat - and cannot be adjusted to allow rearward vision of any use. I am not sure about that distancing piece between the mirror and the door, it is pretty substantial and has the look of being original but I cannot find a picture anywhere of anything similar. Any ideas or do I have to buy a new mirror? Thanks, pugwash.

[Colin Lindsay]

The chrome spacer is original, I presume it acts as a wedge to allow the mirror to get close to the vertical on a sloping door so as not to protrude too far out to the side, but the mirrors can be fitted elsewhere without requiring it. Have you tried loosening the two screws on the underside of the mirror head and moving it to the required position, then tightening again? I don't know if the mirror mounting is a complete 360 degree fitment, some only allow a certain arc of movement and the pivot might have to be loosened off then moved to a different section before full tilt and pan is achieved.

 

[Graham C]

My 1981 spitfire had mirrors fitted and they are fitted with plastic mounting plates. From memory the mirrors moved in all directions however it wasn't a simple movement around a single point. You had to move them in one direction then in the direction you wanted the mirror to be in.

Hope that makes sense working from memory.

Graham

[pugwash]

56 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Have you tried loosening the two screws on the underside of the mirror head and moving it to the required position, then tightening again? I don't know if the mirror mounting is a complete 360 degree fitment, some only allow a certain arc of movement and the pivot might have to be loosened off then moved to a different section before full tilt and pan is achieved.

I looked for the two screws on the underside of the mirror head after seeing them pictured on some aftermarket mirrors. On the, I suppose original, mirrors I have on both sides there are no screws other than the grub screw holding the mirror body to the trapezoid section bracket. There are two cross headed screws holding the spacer to the door and these are as tight as can be. As I said there is almost no movement of the mirror head even after loosening the fixing spring inside the mirror head, the plastic half round pivot sits in a matching recess of the body of the mirror, logically it should be capable of movement in all planes but this seems to not be the case.

One of many things I do not understand is why this passenger side mirror has the spacer and no movement whereas the drivers side has no spacer and full movement. I haven't taken the drivers side mirror off yet to see if there is a different setup, that may be an idea but I do not know.

[pugwash]

27 minutes ago, Graham C said:

My 1981 spitfire had mirrors fitted and they are fitted with plastic mounting plates. From memory the mirrors moved in all directions however it wasn't a simple movement around a single point. You had to move them in one direction then in the direction you wanted the mirror to be in.

The drivers side has only the plastic plate and all the images I have seen show both sides of the car fitted thus, I have not seen one picture of a car with this spacer. As I said there is practically no movement in any direction even with an application of force - but not enough to snap something.

My only  observation at the moment is that if the spacer were to be removed then the mirror fitted directly to the door (via the plastic mount) then the angle of  the mirror arm would be reduced and the mirror possibly will sit more horizontally. As previously said though, that spacer seems to have been fitted tightly, even given 40 years in situ I think an impact driver would be needed to free the screws. On a car door?

 

Edited September 23 by pugwash
Typed before thinking.

[Graham C]

I would avoid using an impact driver as you could damage the door. It will only be held on by two screws  and it seems as if the chrome site on a plastic mounting plate which locates in two holes in the door.

You could view/check the mounting by taking off the door card, using a torch and mirror or endoscope.

Graham

[Peter Truman]

On my old Sprint I had TEX (?) mirrors and on the mirror S/S head there are 2 screws on the underside of the S/S mirror cover that adjust the tension on the swivel ball in the head these might be too tight to let it swivel or the plate it adjusts on the swivel ball has seized on the ball which was plastic, in my case the ball had disintegrated hence no mirror head adjustment.

I contacted TEX who advised there wasn't a service part replacement, but the service guy said he'd post me one, IT NEVER ARRIVED, I eventually found a brass ball of correct size and modified it. 

[pugwash]

9 hours ago, Graham C said:

I would avoid using an impact driver as you could damage the door. It will only be held on by two screws  and it seems as if the chrome site on a plastic mounting plate which locates in two holes in the door.

You could view/check the mounting by taking off the door card, using a torch and mirror or endoscope.

I was not being serious about the impact driver even though these cars are built of proper metal and not the tinfoil of today. I would have thought checking from the outside would suffice? I agree that the spacer is probably mounted to the plastic bracket so may be superfluous. Going back to the reply by Colin Lindsay I don't see why the mirror on one side needs moving inboard - and that by about 1cm - when the other side does not.

It looks like a big screwdriver job, but after the expert from the insurance has evaluated the car as it might lose a few Euros worth if there are no mirrors.

7 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

On my old Sprint I had TEX (?) mirrors and on the mirror S/S head there are 2 screws on the underside of the S/S mirror cover that adjust the tension on the swivel ball in the head these might be too tight to let it swivel or the plate it adjusts on the swivel ball has seized on the ball which was plastic, in my case the ball had disintegrated hence no mirror head adjustment.

As I pointed out there are no screws on the underside of the mirrors. I took the offending mirror to bits, resited the pivot (swivel ball) and lubricated it then reassembled but taking care to not overtighten the spring holding the pivot to the stalk. There is still no movement to talk about of the mirror head.

[Colin Lindsay]

Two things come to mind: firstly, the modern kits are supplied with a fragile black plastic spacer which going by accounts doesn't stand up to much abuse, but are supplied with both sides so obviously still required in some applications today; perhaps this is to allow for personal choice of adjustment and make both mirrors more visible to the driver no matter which side he is on, as possibly one mirror or the other will require more movement due to the distance and angle from the driver - fit one, adjust so the driver can see rearwards, fit both if required or just bin the other unneeded side? I tested mine just now on the Herald door and with no spacer they sit low, protrude quite too far out, and cannot be adjusted to suit my line of sight, whereas the spacer gives me that little bit more of comfortable line of sight. Maybe it's just a case of fit what suits.

Secondly, my mirrors have the screws on the underside as shown on this spare set:

The mirror does need a degree of tightness so that it doesn't move about under driving conditions, but not so that it can't be easily adjusted with light force. If there is a screw on the rear of the actual mirror head then remove that and see if the glass assembly drops out; adjustment screws may be behind this inside the actual body depending on the brand. These are Unipart GAM 147, whilst others recommend GAM 213, but they still all come with the plinth.

 

 

 

 

[pugwash]

7 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Two things come to mind: firstly, the modern kits are supplied with a fragile black plastic spacer which going by accounts doesn't stand up to much abuse, but are supplied with both sides so obviously still required in some applications today; perhaps this is to allow for personal choice of adjustment and make both mirrors more visible to the driver no matter which side he is on, as possibly one mirror or the other will require more movement due to the distance and angle from the driver - fit one, adjust so the driver can see rearwards, fit both if required or just bin the other unneeded side? I tested mine just now on the Herald door and with no spacer they sit low, protrude quite too far out, and cannot be adjusted to suit my line of sight, whereas the spacer gives me that little bit more of comfortable line of sight. Maybe it's just a case of fit what suits.

If there is a screw on the rear of the actual mirror head then remove that and see if the glass assembly drops out; adjustment screws may be behind this inside the actual body depending on the brand. These are Unipart GAM 147, whilst others recommend GAM 213, but they still all come with the plinth.

Starting at the end, the only screw other than the grub screw is inside the head and goes through, thus compressing, the retaining spring. I did not tighten this up as much as it was because I thought it was overtight, I set it to be tight enough to hold but free enough to adjust. The only thing holding the glass in is the black plastic bezel, behind the glass are only some tiny cushioning pads.

You are right in that the mirrors only have to be set up once as I am - hopefully - ever going to be the driver.

Back to the start, I believe you in your saying that the spacer helps to bring the mirror into a better position but as I said at the moment the only mirror adjustment means either looking at the sky or the rear wheelarch. I did not get time to take a look today but will tomorrow with a bit of luck. If I can't get any results with this then it looks like a new mirror that adjusts then try that with and without the spacer to see what works best.

As far as the protrusion goes I think if you look at my photo you will agree that the diference will only be about 1-2 cm which is still within the width of the car, the possible problem is that the level of the mirror could be below that of the window however at the moment I can see clearly under the mirror. Again a suck it and see job.

All this just to adjust a mirror, what happens when I get to the mechanicals?

I just thought, do you have a photo of your spacers to compare to the chrome one I have? I would like to compare the thickness and thus the amount the spacer lifts the mirror.

Edited September 24 by pugwash
Late thought

[Colin Lindsay]

I'd loosen off the centre internal screw quite far; on mine just now it took a fair bit of free movement before the head swivelled right round freely. With the grub screw on the mounting at the rear, away from the direction of travel, it took some flexibility before they overcame some internal obstacle and turned round to a useable angle. It really does take the angled plinth to raise the mirror to a vertical level that will overcome the restrictions of the angled neck.

The plinths are as shown with a 1/2 drive between to show scale.

  

[Pete Lewis]

i used rivnuts to replace the tap screws 

pete

[mpbarrett]

can you buy the metal pedestals separately?
I use the plastic ones that came with the mirrors and they are not very good, as Pete has done I put in rivnuts into the doors. 
I have also replaced the glass from flat to Convex so that you get a wider view angle and then the adjustment does not have to be exact.

[Colin Lindsay]

57 minutes ago, mpbarrett said:

can you buy the metal pedestals separately?
I use the plastic ones that came with the mirrors and they are not very good, as Pete has done I put in rivnuts into the doors. 
I have also replaced the glass from flat to Convex so that you get a wider view angle and then the adjustment does not have to be exact.

Yes you can, eBay has a lot for sale. I searched 'door mirror plinth pedestal' and quite a few appeared. 

[pugwash]

The latest thrilling episode...

I took the mirror and plinth off - a job in itself as the screws are PZ2 which I only have one of and they were well tight - and found out that the plinth is fitted as per the instructions shown by Colin Lindsay above.

Not a chance of mounting the mirror directly to the door without drilling another hole or two. To be avoided especially if the mirror still will not adjust enough afterwards.

I slackened the internal spring tensioning screw as far as it would go before the head began to flop about. No change.

The sum of all this is I am still at the state of play as when I started. It looks like a new mirror is needed but as suggested previously by mpbarrett I will buy one with convex glass and fit the same glass to the drivers side.

Just out of interest the mirror head is stamped on the surface facing the car with:  e11 / (Roman) III / 1101  no idea what this means.

Anyway I would like to thank you all for the advice and suggestions, it is much appreciated.