Buying Advice - Is this engine sound a worry?

[SiFli]

Hi all, 

 

Adamant on becoming a classic car driver / enthusiast and found a nice 50year old triumph 1300 FWD within budget. 

 

Been to view it, needs a bit of TLC cosmetically but undergone a decent amount of mechanical works and it's just passed an MOT no advisories. 

 

My only real concern is the way the engine sounded, there was quite an obvious clattering sound which grew as the car accelerated. 

 

I'd be grateful if you could see the attached video and give me any idea of if I should be concerned as a first time buyer of a classic about this kinda noise. Is it normal or a serious underlying condition? 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqOQTXzJW2o&feature=youtu.be

 

My only other concern was looking up into the engine bay from under the car, there was some oil present on the front of the engine, I was with the guy with several hours though and none ever dripped down to the floor, so uncertain if this is an old issue. Appreciate its not the best angled photo but the best I could do 

 

 

I'm very appreciative of any help and hopefully in the next few days I might have myself a cracking piece of history and become an active member of the forum (y)

 

Regards

 

-Si

[Pete Lewis]

Think I would start with crank end float , the thrusts have diapeared and the flywheel is making contact with the rear plate, not uncommon,

 

Look at the front pulley , ringear see if it moves when you press the clutch

 

can be solved its sump off and drop the rear main cap, the trusts are held in by a lug on the cap

this can get worn off but can be built up with carefull weld,

 

in real disasters its a new crank

 

look on the brighter side there could be a much simpler clue on here soon.

 

it could be clutch throwout related , but the noise is more likey to be the above

 

pete

[Steve P]

That sounds frightening,i would be wary of even driving that until you know what`s doing it.Unless the price reflects it there could be major work required.

Steve

[SiFli]

Price is at £1600, has just passed MOT but mileage unconfirmed (shows 11k), only docs with it are a V5 and a MOT certificate. Really struggling to value it but starting to think its probably not worth that amount 

 

Admittedly my mechanical knowledge is pretty limited, if existent at all, but would love to learn. 

 

Not particularly sure where to go from here

[Guest]

Hello.

 

Only one action required here - WALK AWAY from that car !!

 

There are plenty of Triumphs out there, so wait your time and go for the one that ticks all the boxes (or as close as possible) and you have a positive gut feeling.

 

Nothing wrong with going to look at as many as possible, sellers want to shift their car - you can benefit by building your knowledge via their selling opportunity.

 

Worth having a look at the TSSC for sale board and also Club Triumph if you can access it. A lot of Triumph owners are in either one or the other; quite often both.

 

Good video & sound footage.

 

Good luck.

 

Richard.

[dougbgt6]

I discovered my car had very bad end float after I bought it. The crank was obviously moving backwards and forward. This had not only worn the crank, but also worn the the bores into an elongated S shape. A regrind and re-bore were necessary to fix it. However, there was no audible indication any thing was wrong.

 

This sounds to me like a Mini I had, the crank had broken diagonally through one of the journals and the bearings were holding it all together but the flywheel was flexing on the end of the crank and banging on the casing.

 

Should you walk away? Engines can be fixed but what state is the body work in?

 

As to the oil, well, that's how you can tell it's a Triumph!

[68vitesse]

FWD Triumphs are quite rare and engine, gearbox parts etc. can be different from the RWD models. Ran a 1500 FWD for some years but tinworm got it in the end, it is not a matter of dropping the sump on these as the engine sits on top of the gearbox and final drive. On the 1500 the drive shaft used same rotaflex as MK11 Vitesse and some GT6 and the front disc are peculiar to the model, not sure about 1300FWD. As others have said if not completely happy walk away, having owned a FWD and currently a MK1 Vitesse personally I would always go for the RWD models but to each their own.

 

Regards

 

Paul

[Pete Lewis]

yes the whole lump has to come out and separated, not a bad job ,  but heavy as an assembly.

    

 

there are good points about FWD as the clutch change is a doddle and the gearbox can be rebuilt in situ from inside the car  done some in  the past 

and strangely my first experience of dropped triumph thrusts was on a 1300 fwd  which was resurrected with a little weld build , it ran on for another 12 years till 

the body was beyond reclaim,     this one stalled when declutching with a flywheel brake !! 

 many /most parts for the fwd are very hard to find , herald or vitesse  are far more available  dolly a bit lesser 

 

if youre starting on the classic scene then something more attainable is a sensible  move

 

Pete

[68vitesse]

A question to ask yourself, having listened to the video, if the fix is easy and or cheap why hasn't the owner sorted it.

 

Regards

 

Paul

[Clive]

Stay away, that sounds nasty. And FWD stuff is hard to find compared to so many other cars.

At £500 allowing 1K for engine work it may be OK, but no more.

 

Plenty of much better cars out there.

[SiFli]

Thank you for all your input guys, gave me the much needed kick up the back side I needed really. 

 

In my gut alarm bells were ringing but I was almost bartering myself into it for the sake of having something rare and unique. 

 

In the end the item sold for £1850 and low and behold a number of days later I've just had a text saying the buyer has refused to pay and take the car away and do I want it for that price. 

 

Admittedly I saw a '67 on eBay sold items (the one I was watching was a '66) in better nick with history confirming miles which went for £1660 so wouldn't have dreamed of going over that anyway. 

 

If I was a bit more mechanically experienced I might make and offer but perhaps best off waiting it out till something already spot on comes up, as previously suggested. 

 

So for parts etc sake, Im better off with RWD versions? 

 

If so, how does the spitfire compare to them for part availability and such? Thats one of the first classics I saw as a younger lad at auction with dad and its stole my heart I get a bit scared of soft tops though as Id guess theyd be a bugger to deal with if damaged or not 100%. I've had a long running dream of having a classic with the roof down to take up int' dales int' summa forra spin

[Guest]

Triumph spares is a plentiful market and the majority of the well known models are comprehensively catered for.

 

Spitfire (as you have mentioned) is a very good example of spares availability. Compare spares for FWD to a Spitfire and they are the opposite ends of the spectrum. 

 

If you are looking for hood down, then yes the later Spitfire / Herald / Vitesse are the key vehicles; all with decent spares back-up. Earlier versions of these vehicles do have some spares limitations (i.e. Vitesse 6).

 

Additionally I think they are the perfect vehicles for cutting your teeth on with home mechanics etc. Needless to say you have access to immense amounts of knowledge & help from similar owners via this Forum - a fraction of which you have just experienced.

 

Well done for staying away from that FWD and your decision has been very much justified.

 

Worth thinking about joining your local TSSC area club; a great way to learn about Triumphs that you may be interested in, with decent guys & girls of a similar shared interest.

 

I hope the above is of assistance ??

 

Best wishes.

 

Richard.  

[dougbgt6]

Spitfires are plentiful and most spares not a problem. There is also an OE (Original Equipment, you'll have to learn the jargon!) hard top which you can take off for the summer. And as you won't want to take it out in the rain, you won't need a soft top! If you can find a hard top one it should also have it's soft top.

[Pete Lewis]

Sorry Richard, theres no parts problems with vitesse6 and they are the smoothest of the 6s

had mine for 13 years drove like your stole it and shes 52 now , I only sold her to get 4 doors

for our golden oldie club

 

A well set up 1600 gives most 2ltr a good run less torque but more revable.

 

pete

[Guest]

Thanks Pete.

 

Noted.

 

Even better news for perspective purchasers !!

 

I saw your 6 on a number of occasions and a fine example.

 

Regards.

 

Richard.

[SiFli]

Hey guys, thanks again for all your support, it's much appreciated!

 

I've come across a nice little mid 60's herald 1200 saloon and it looks just as lovely as the 1300's (if not nicer )  

 

I know Pete's already mentioned they're very good on parts, presumably that includes the early models are as well? 

 

I see on the tssc main site the rough price guideline is 1600-2400 good - excellent. Think id quite happily pay up to around the 2k mark if it looks as nice in person (seller has advised there's one or two patches of paint work needing a little spruce up)

 

Only thing that scares me is the 39BHP engine I think coming up to roundabouts I might be sat waiting till it's absolutely clear to pull out   

 

-Simon

[Casper]

 

Only thing that scares me is the 39BHP engine I think coming up to roundabouts I might be sat waiting till it's absolutely clear to pull out   

 

-Simon

 

You do have to develop 'momentum management techniques.

 

From about Feb 1965 (Engine No. GA178101E on ) the 1200 was pushing out a massive 48 bhp.

 

C.

[Pete Lewis]

You could always add the 12/50 or early spitfire manifold and carbs to make more spritely

but there, s little wrong with the 1200 after all , it used to be quite nippy in the 60s

 

best if the herald has the disc brake option

 

pete

[Steve C]

HI Simon

 

If you are prepared to do most of the work yourself, and learn the required skills as you go, a Herald 1200 is an excellent starter classic, with easy mechanicals, excellent parts availability. They are a poor liar in terms of hiding rot. Just inspect the chassis carefully, particularly the outriggers, the main rails around and under the diff and the body mounting points. On the body itself, full rear wings are NLA, although repair panels are available, and those headlamp rings which give it such a pretty "face" compared with a 13/60 are no longer available, so if they are pock-marked, you are stuck with it. The main areas to watch for up top are the screen pillars, which if they have holed, allow water into the A-post, where it can rot everything out. If you find a car with really good panel fit and gaps, particularly the doors, direct your eyes to heaven and give thanks - it is rare to find this on cars outside the concours arena.

 

On the road, they are surprisingly capable, as long as you don't intend staying on motorways all day. The drum brakes can be adjusted to work reasonably well, but if the car has the optional discs, so much the better. The controls are light, and visibility all round is good, which is why BSM used them as driving school cars back in the day. If you don't expect it to drive like a modern hatchback, and recalibrate your expectations back to the 60s, you can relax and enjoy it for what it is.

 

It is eminently possible, if a car has a sound chassis, to repair any rot as a rolling restoration, doing it as you can afford to, and as your skills improve. I would recommend asking someone who knows the cars to go with you to view a potential purchase if you can. I am sure the local TSSC area will help .

 

Where it is possible to come unstuck in this hobby, and I have seen it happen,  is to buy a car without the necessary skills, or the inclination to learn them, expecting to farm all the work out to others. Unless you have very deep pockets, at today's; labour rates this can get very expensive. It is a fact of life with classic cars that something always needs doing, (even stuff you have done once already). Back in the sixties, cars were not the sealed-for-life, ultra-reliable vehicles we now take for granted - they spent regular time in the garage, and needed constant fettling.

 

Modifications can also make these cars easier to live with in modern traffic, and the sky is the limit. 1500 engines, overdrive gearboxes, later seats, inertia reel seatbelts have all been done, and well-documented in the Courier and elsewhere.

 

I hope you find yourself a decent car, and have a lot of fun with it. There are some great people in this club, who will always advise you on here, with a lot of experience of long-term ownership. Good luck!

 

Steve C

[Pete Lewis]

and  there's a guy making  replacement headlamp cowls  chrome on brass casting  around £80 but will never pop mark or corrode 

 

Pete

[Steve C]

Sad to relate Pete, that project seems to have folded for lack of takers. I am on Bob's list for a pair, but have not heard anything from him for some time.

 

Regards

 

Steve

[David McHugh]

Hi Simon, when you first heard the sound did you ask what it was or did he offer any kind of reason or any comment about it? I appreciate that you don't have the experience but he didn't know that, had it been me selling it with a sound that is quite obviously not supposed to be there, I would of offered an explanation. I find it very odd if he did not react in some way when the sound started.

 

I think you made the right decision to walk away.

 

Kind regards

David

[SiFli]

Hi Simon, when you first heard the sound did you ask what it was or did he offer any kind of reason or any comment about it? 

 

I didn't David no, I should have but was wondering if that's just how a 50 year old car sounded! 

 

I was hoping to go away and have a friend of mine whos worked with classics all his life as mechanic and provider to tv/film production have a listen but he decided to go quiet on me, grr! It lead me here to you guys though so that's quite a silver lining!

 

Im being careful what I put out publicly online but I think had I of asked I wouldn't have received such a forthcoming answer as you would offer in that situation David, that certainly seemed the case with the mentioned oil leak which warranted an "oh is there an oil leak?" response haha. Im certainly going to be a lot more inquizitive in future, just dont want to come across as a newbie. 

 

At the moment Im feeling rather frustrated looking over eBays completed listing and seeing some nice clean examples with full MOT's and history selling around £1600-£1800 - Something will turn up eventually Im sure!