Clutch stuck or not .......

[Valherald]

Hi all,

My issue is similar to the one recently posted by Brian Burton so apologies for posting similar but didnt want to hijack that thread as my problem continues past that of Brian's which I read with interest.

 

BACKGROUND: I'm working on the early stages of a renovation of a 1965, 1147 convertible Herald which had been stood up for eight years or so before I got her. I have got her running, reliably now, refurbished brake system so am ready to attempt moving under her own steam.

 

PROBLEM: Clutch appears stuck (as probably predicted after such a long period) with symptoms as follows: 

- Gears can be selected without engine running

- Gears cannot easily be selected with clutch depressed however, will select with crunching and grinding

- When in gear with engine running (jacked up) drive shaft and wheels will turn but continue too even if clutch is depressed

 

RECTIFICATION ACTIONS SO FAR: Having read other posts etc, I figured the drive plate may be suck to the flywheel so took the many ideas that others have tried (and found to be successful) as follows:

- When jacked up, warmed the engine up, ran the car in gear with clutch depressed, revved high and then braked which I attempted several times to no avail

- Rocked the car back and forward whilst in gear and clutch depressed

- Bled hydraulics and tested for leaks

- Removed, cleaned and tested slave unit and replaced rubbers

- As none of the above worked, I removed the gearbox and clutch to find that the flywheel did have rust residue resembling what it may look like had it been stuck to the drive plate. I have cleaned up the flywheel, tested all mechanical links etc and replaced.

 

SUMMARY:

Unfortunately, after reassembling etc I still have exactly the same fault.

 

It may be worth mentioning that although I'm reasonably mechanically able, this is the first time I have ever inspected a clutch system so have no experience of what good would look like or what bad would look like.

 

I am now thinking I should maybe replace the release bearing and will probably replace the clutch (although I know the clutch alone would not fix my issue) next time I'm in there as in essence, the clutch looks to be a relatively simple mechanical system to me so I am a little stumped.

 

Any thoughts, tips or assistance would be very much appreciated and I am also aware that some less mechanically minded approaches have taken place on this car before and have learnt not to ignore the obvious. with that thought in mind, there are a couple of other questions as well:

 

1: I have looked at clutch supplies and the outer covers available all have 5 spring wholes whereas the one fitted has 9, s that correct? see pic attached

2: In the mechanical manual, a return mechanism and spring assembly is shown for this type of clutch. Although non of the pics I have looked at show the return spring, the housing does have a hole just next to the slave aperture, should there be a return spring fitting there?

 

Apologies for the long post and thank you so much in advance for any time and assistance you can offer.

 

Best regards

Gary

[dougbgt6]

Yep, your clutch is stuck on the flywheel. It's not a difficult job to separate and it's not certain anything else is wrong. I've got the bell housing off and separated the clutch in a couple of hours. It comes off dead easy and you think why was this sticking?!!   .

 

I have heard of people being towed, starting the engine, dropping the tow rope, depressing the clutch and slamming on the brakes, it works but not recommended!

[AidanT]

Hi

 

I remember a thread on here in respect of the clutch release arm being bent and therefore the clutch not dis-engaging even though the hydraulics were working I'm not sure this is the answer but it would certainly be worth a look. I'm sure someone will put me right if I have gone off on a tangent!! ????

[Valherald]

Yep, your clutch is stuck on the flywheel. It's not a difficult job to separate and it's not certain anything else is wrong. I've got the bell housing off and separated the clutch in a couple of hours. It comes off dead easy and you think why was this sticking?!!   .

 

I have heard of people being towed, starting the engine, dropping the tow rope, depressing the clutch and slamming on the brakes, it works but not recommended!

Thanks Dougbgt6 but I have had the bell housing off, physically separated the clutch drive face from the flywheel (like you say, relatively simple job), put it all back together and have the same fault!  

[Valherald]

Hi

 

I remember a thread on here in respect of the clutch release arm being bent and therefore the clutch not dis-engaging even though the hydraulics were working I'm not sure this is the answer but it would certainly be worth a look. I'm sure someone will put me right if I have gone off on a tangent!!

Many thanks for the tip AidanT, definitely worth a look when I'm back in there as that would make sense, I just need to see a comparison somehow, how it should look.Thank you.

[Pete Lewis]

one common plave on 4 cyl cars is the tolereance ring ( a crinkled thin walled bush ) that holds the throwout pivot pin to be slack/out of positon and loose travel  

 

try re bleeding by pushing the slave pushrod fully into the cylinder to reduce its volume  wiht its beed screw at the top .

 

then refit the slave and its clamp bolt , pump a few times to get the piston in contact with the push rod.

 

pete

[Herald948]

 

1: I have looked at clutch supplies and the outer covers available all have 5 spring wholes whereas the one fitted has 9, s that correct? see pic attached

2: In the mechanical manual, a return mechanism and spring assembly is shown for this type of clutch. Although non of the pics I have looked at show the return spring, the housing does have a hole just next to the slave aperture, should there be a return spring fitting there?

From what I've seen over the years, the 6 (not 5-spring clutch was fitted to the 948cc Herald engines, and the 9-spring cover was fitted to 1147cc Heralds until superseded by the diaphragm-style clutch. I don't know what sort of stuff is typically offered these days, but that's how it used to be! What you pictured here IS correct for your car.

 

As to the "return mechanism and spring assembly," again, that's something that was present until partway through the 948cc series gearboxes but was not used on the later Heralds.

[Valherald]

one common plave on 4 cyl cars is the tolereance ring ( a crinkled thin walled bush ) that holds the throwout pivot pin to be slack/out of positon and loose travel  

 

try re bleeding by pushing the slave pushrod fully into the cylinder to reduce its volume  wiht its beed screw at the top .

 

then refit the slave and its clamp bolt , pump a few times to get the piston in contact with the push rod.

 

pete

Many thanks Pete, I will give that a try as well, thank you.

[Valherald]

From what I've seen over the years, the 6 (not 5-spring clutch was fitted to the 948cc Herald engines, and the 9-spring cover was fitted to 1147cc Heralds until superseded by the diaphragm-style clutch. I don't know what sort of stuff is typically offered these days, but that's how it used to be! What you pictured here IS correct for your car.

 

As to the "return mechanism and spring assembly," again, that's something that was present until partway through the 948cc series gearboxes but was not used on the later Heralds.

Thats great info, many thanks, much appreciated.

[Steve C]

Are the clutch slave and master cylinders the correct ones for the car? It sounds very much like there is some mechanical reason why the clutch is not fully disengaging. You know it is not rusted on to the flywheel face, so I would look at the hydraulics. Was there any scoring on the cover plate where the release bearing touches it? Possible causes could include incorrect length pushrods on either or both cylinders, use of "rogue" parts from another Triumph model that look superficially right but differ internally. I had a similar problem with a master cylinder that was holding my clutch part-way in even when my hoof was off the pedal. One of the penalties of having cars like ours with their "Meccano" nature is that sometimes people mix and match bits without the required knowledge as to what will work!

 

Good luck in sorting it out, you will get there.

 

Steve C

[Pete Lewis]

also on that idea check the pedal does return to its stop, if the pushrod has no slack/free play the cylnder will not recuperate fluid from the reservoir .  so  a returning piston wont refill after a stroke 

 

just give the rod a rattle ,  often caused if the pedal pivot has seized , you will loose travel

 

Pete

[Valherald]

Are the clutch slave and master cylinders the correct ones for the car? It sounds very much like there is some mechanical reason why the clutch is not fully disengaging. You know it is not rusted on to the flywheel face, so I would look at the hydraulics. Was there any scoring on the cover plate where the release bearing touches it? Possible causes could include incorrect length pushrods on either or both cylinders, use of "rogue" parts from another Triumph model that look superficially right but differ internally. I had a similar problem with a master cylinder that was holding my clutch part-way in even when my hoof was off the pedal. One of the penalties of having cars like ours with their "Meccano" nature is that sometimes people mix and match bits without the required knowledge as to what will work!

 

Good luck in sorting it out, you will get there.

 

Steve C

Many thanks Steve, some great tips which I will take note of when I go back in. Great point on the scoring on the cover plate which I dont remember seeing and as you say, will be a good tell tell.  know what you mean about the Meccano effect as Ive already came up against that when getting the engine back to life, lots of incorrect parts etc. thank you again, most useful post. Best regards

[Valherald]

Thanks Everybody, all of the tips helped and after a mixture of new release bearing, recharged slave unit and tinkered with pressure plate assembly etc the car is moving and stopping under her own steam after many many years.

''Thanks All'' and here's to the next part of the project!

Best regards

Gary