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** 26/02/23 Heading Up ** Probably how not to restore a Herald!


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They  are both clearly late engines.  The only reason I could see to mark them 47 is to distinguish from the 948 and the bucket core plugs do that.  Early 1147 are externally identical to the 948, but these are late engines, and 6 port engines so shouldn't be confused with 1300s or 1500s.

FYI, engine sequence in 1961 was GA0001

C.

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5 minutes ago, Casper said:

and 6 port engines so shouldn't be confused with 1300s or 1500s.

You're assuming the number was painted on after the engine was built up. Would it not make sense for the foundry to mark up the bare block (possibly after machining) so that the engine build line knew which head to fit?

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Well also, Casper you as an experienced enthusiast will see these differences. The apprentice on the assembly line, maybe not. A large bright number is definitely easy to visually check for. I understand the TR engines were marked to differentiate them from the Fergie tractor engines.

Do you know if the GD sequence was started from 1 again? I know the Spitfires started to mix prefixes at some point and there were jumps in commission and presumably engine numbers. 

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AFAIR GD was used (probably starting from 1) on export engines, then for the 12/50.  The GA engine continued with GA when it first changed to 12/50 spec ('hot cam' engine) GA but at some time changed to GD.

Incomplete answer, but I hope that helps

C.

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On 27/07/2022 at 06:47, Josef said:

Well 113xxx would indicate a later engine (nominally the numbering series will have started at GD1HE - I think, don’t have any concrete evidence there though - in 1961). Given in 68 the 13/60, Spit Mk3, 1300 etc and 1200 Herald were all in production, having some obvious mark up to make sure each car got the appropriate engine fitted first time seems logical. But I’m only inferring, maybe someone round here knows for sure?

UK 1200 Heralds were all GA and the 12/50s GD; my 1962 convertible is GA119*** but the 1967 Estate is GA229***. I was going to post that a 113*** engine seems quite early, but if it's GD from a 12/50 then that changes things somewhat. However: there were only about 50,000 12/50s made so there can't be the same number of engines as cars. This then poses the question: were the 12/50 blocks taken from the same production sequence, and when uprated to 12/50 spec given the GD prefix to denote the difference to the standard GA - so therefore there's no GA113000HE engine about, or ever released?

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Thanks everyone for the feedback, I’m particularly interested in the fact that I appear to have a 12/50 engine.

What is the difference between the stock 1200 and the 12/50 engines?

Sounds like I might need to look at getting a heritage certificate.

Thanks

Karl

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There were about 4 or 5 different 'stock' 1200 enines with quoted hp from 39 to 48 (with standard exhaust and 51 with the 12/50 swept pipe exhaust).  The 'hot cam' engine, which you have, is identical for both Herald and 12/50 and was the last variant in production.  The only differece is the exhaust  manifold which, for the 12/50, is similar to the Mk 1 Spifire but has a single solex inlet manifold cast as a unit, compared to the Spit which has a 3 piece twin SU manifold seperate. 

You could do no better than refer to John Thomason's series in the Courier starting p. 31 Courier 174 December 1994 https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/uploaded_files/174 - December 1994.pdf

in particular the article on the 1200 engine at p. 29 https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/uploaded_files/175 - January 1995.pdf

https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/uploaded_files/177 - March 1995.pdf  Courier 177 p. 28 has the specs.

C.

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Casper, many thanks for posting those articles, they have really satisfied my not so inner nerd!

I had a vague recollection that the standard and 12/50 engines had been rationalised late in the production, but it was very vague.

Thanks again

Karl

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've not managed to do anything on the Herald the last couple of weekends, as I have been away on business this week, and last weekend was spent getting ready to fly out to South Africa, and today is recovery time having landed at 5.00!

I work in IT, but in the mining industry for a large multi-national, with a large chunk of my team, based out in SA, this was my first opportunity to meet my team, including my boss, face to face due to Covid.

I spent the first couple of days travelling to mine sites in the North-West of the country, meeting the IT teams that my team deal with and getting their feedback, but which also meant a mine site tour!

BmSugk.jpg

This is one of the mine pits, and it's a kilometre across! The trucks look tiny, but are in fact full size haul trucks capable of carrying 300 tons of ore!

This next shot is of an abandoned pit which is being used as a resevoir.

HmSjvz.jpg

It's about 300 metres down to the level of the water, and the the water is another 60-90 metres deep, though this pit isn't as wide as the first pic..

No trip to a mine site is complete without getting up close and personal with the hardware.

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This is Papa Truck, Mama Truck and little Truck.

But you only get an idea of scale when you get up close and personal.

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This is full size haul truck, like in the photo of the mine site above, which makes you appreciate the scale of that hole in the ground.

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I'm never moaning about changing a tire again.

We even had a look in the workshops, where this monster was awaiting re-fitting.

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These truck are packed full of IT kit, much of which is provided by the vendors that my team manage, so great to understand how it actually gets used in the field, and the conditions it has to operate under.

Despite a packed week of travelling, meetings, and team conferences, I did get some downtime, and my boss very kindly took me around a local game reserve before I flew out on Saturday evening.

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This was actually taken on the way to the mine site, and just shows how close the big game get to industrial operations in SA.

At the game reserve we got to see a whole raft of animals, from Meerkats to Gnu, but the Rhino and the Buffalo were definitely the most impressive, particularly as we got up close.

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CZpBRb.jpg

Overall an amazing, but very tiring week, and now looking forward to getting back to the Herald.

Karl

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  • Bordfunker changed the title to ** 07/08/22 Trucking Hell! ** Probably how not to restore a Herald!

I mentioned in one of my previous posts that I had my concerns around how accurate my reconstruction of the chassis and tub had been, due to a number of the mounting points not quite aligning.

So first order of business this weekend was going to be checking all of the key measurement points against the values in the WSM.

Cue much use of garden twine and screw drivers to create my own large scale cat's cradle.

First up, getting a centre line.

5zSr0x.jpg

Note very technical use of pliers to keep the tape measure in place!

I took the bulk of the measurements from the line between the two rear turret mounting bolts, as this looked to be what the WSM was suggesting. 

Was my interpretation correct?

I then used the twine to mark out the position of the various measuring points at 90 degrees to the central datum line.

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Note the motley collection of screwdrivers being used to hold the twine in position.

By this point it was looking like I was trying to create my own pentagram and summon some demons!

W7eo3n.jpg

The result of all this mucking around with string was, as suspected, many of the mounting points were not where the WSM said they ought to be.

Some were out on the WSM value by up to 12mm, whilst most were within 2-5mm.

Worst was the rear most chassis mounting point on the outriggers, which is 179cm from the front datum point, rather than the 177.8cm stated in the WSM.

Given this, I expected the locating point for the drag link mount for the rear suspension to be out, but compared to the WSM figure it was spot on.

So I know:

  1. that the bulkhead and tub fit the chassis without issue, so that there are no gross issues with key elements of the body fitting within the confines of the chassis itself,
  2. the critical rear suspension mount is in the correct place, not surprising really as the suspension was in situ when I welded these in.

All of which suggests, to this novice at least, that the chassis is generally OK, but it's the detail of the mounting points that I need to address.

Consequently I am assuming that being repro panels, not all the mounting points may be in the right place. 

Therefore my current thinking is, if I enlarged the mounting points, including the crush tubes, so that they are maybe double the width, with perhaps a little fettling of the tub mounting brackets, I should gain sufficient wiggle room to get everything bolted up.

Does this make sense? Or is this just evidence of shoddy workmanship on my part?

All suggestions very welcome.

Karl

 

 

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  • Bordfunker changed the title to ** 14/08/22 Cats Cradle ** Probably how not to restore a Herald!
19 hours ago, Bordfunker said:

Was my interpretation correct?

the biggest problem is deciphering the drawing to get just where on the crossmember the 0 datum is set against the main xmember or its brackets 

i  studied this and enlarged the drawing  many years back but  i dont remember other than its as clear as mud 

Pete

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Pete, thanks for that, good to know it’s not just me!

I’m inclined to finish off redoing all the main welds on the chassis, then set the tub and bulkhead up on the chassis getting the best alignment I can with the mounts as is, then put the doors and roof on.

Once they are on, and I’m happy everything fits, I’ll then look at amending the remaining mounting points so that they fit.

It’ll be a faff, but worth it longer term.

I did actually managed to get something meaningful done yesterday, finishing off the last few bits of welding on the boot outriggers.

uu3R8Q.jpg
 

Bxn1iI.jpg

Aside from redoing my original chassis welds, I also need to replace the passenger side end of the front bumper rail, as I’ve noted it’s sporting a few perforations.

Karl

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  • 2 weeks later...

Mrs B was away last week, which would usually signal several days of working in the garage, but it was mid-week, so instead I spent the time working.

Apparently it’s frowned upon to work on your ageing Triumph when you ought to doing the departmental budgets for 2023!

I did however get into the garage Wednesday evening and attack the engine with Gunk, a scrubbing brush, and the steam cleaner.

it really is amazing how much crud an engine accumulates over 50 years, particularly one as prone to leaking as the SC!

53RMal.jpg

The engine stand really has come into its own, allowing me to tilt the engine over to get into all the nooks and crannies.

However the removal of said filth has raised a number of questions, such as, is this supposed to be attached to the sump?

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For clarity it’s the bracket at the bottom of the crankcase breather vent tube.

Or what is this bracket for?

fVnlyg.jpg

The aim is to clean up and repaint the engine and associated sub-assemblies before reassembling everything with new gaskets and seals, which are on order from Paddocks.

The engine was running well before I took the car off the road, so I won’t be trying to fix what ain’t broke, just cure the oil leaks.

Karl

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  • Bordfunker changed the title to ** 28/08/22 Steaming ** Probably how not to restore a Herald!

Chris, normal Gunk is still very good, but this time I switched to Gunk Green, as it’s more environmentally friendly and a lot less stinky.

Surprisingly, it’s no less effective than the old formula, and leaves you a lot less objectionable when you leave the garage.

Karl

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Thanks for the insights guys.

Matt, that would make sense, as I can’t see that the bracket was welded to the sump pan at all.

Casper, I think you are right as although my car does have the drain tube, it looks to have been left just hanging by the exhaust down pipe, rather than being attached at the lower end to anything.

Thanks 

Karl

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With 3 days of DIY behind me, it's time to get into the garage.

I was intending to be working on the chassis this week, but have managed to side track myself with the engine instead.

Not helped by a care package from Paddocks arriving this morning.

7VQRVI.jpg

From left to right:

  • new bottom end gaskets for the engine
  • bumper rail repair section
  • clutch slave cylinder
  • windscreen gutters x 2
  • front and rear engine oil seals 
  • set or core plugs

The engine has always leaked since I've had the car, from all the usual places, so seeing as the engine is out of the car and on a stand, I thought I might as well attend to the leaks.

I've already cleaned up the engine with Gunk and the steam cleaner, and have started removing the timing chain cover, sump etc..

The timing cover was pretty much bereft of paint, so I simply gave it a clean up with a strip disc, and then gave it a coat of rust stopper.

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Followed by a coat of etch primer.

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That has been put to one side for now as I'll clean and prime all the other sub-components before I mix up a batch of engine black and paint everything as a job lot.

I took the sump off last weekend, but given the sludge in the bottom of it, left the clean up till today.

Half an hour with some Gunk and old paint brushes, and copious quantities of rags I got the interior of the sump clean, so that I could flip it over and start cleaning up the exterior.

Despite the clean up, it took me a while to realise that the gasket was still in place, including bright yellow Stanpart branding, and wasn't showing any urgency in separating from the sump itself.

Nothing for it, but to break out a razor blade, and carefully, (wearing two pairs of gloves!) remove the fossilised gasket.

As I peeled the gasket back, I found pockets of oil trapped under the gasket in the dimples of sump flange pressing.

Nothing unusual in that, and most were black and gunky, obviously, but weirdly, several contained clean fresh oil!

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I felt like a archaeologist, peeling back the layers and finding this!

Even after the razor blade treatment there were still pieces of gasket clinging to the sump, so out came the strip disc again, to take the sump flange back to bare metal, without damaging the flange itself.

QEbTDe.jpg

With the risk of spreading 50 year old oily muck everywhere, it was time to start on the exterior.

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I'm not going to go mad over cleaning up the sump, after all, it's a sump, but the aim is to remove any loose paint and get the surface fit for a coat of primer.

Now, while in the sump region, (ooh err Matron!) I noticed something which struck me as strange.

XbHmu1.jpg

The oil pump pick up is centre of shot, and here's a closer look.

o1MX2E.jpg

I was expecting to find a gauze filter over the intake, but there is nothing, just a plain opening.

As you can see from the proceeding photos of the sump, there is nothing in the sump to act as filter, so I am therefore somewhat baffled.

Is this normal? Every other oil pump appears to have a filter attached.

Thoughts from the hive mind appreciated.

Karl

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  • Bordfunker changed the title to ** 01/09/22 Sumped! ** Probably how not to restore a Herald!

On the six cylinder cars, there was a design change around 1968. Early cars used a straight pump pick-up like yours, with a gauze filter plate across the sump (there was a hole in that plate for the pump to poke through). Later ones lost the filter plate and instead had a gauze over the end of the pick-up. I'd assume the same design change happened on the four cylinder engines (I vaguely recall my brother's Mk2 Spitfire being the early style but all the other ones I've ever dismantled were later engines).

So it looks like you may have an early pump with a late sump, which results in no gauze at all.

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NM, thanks for that, that would make sense.

But it does beg the question was it built like this, presumably so, or has the oil pump or sump been replaced at some point.

If it was built like that, you would have thought that the factory would have made sure there was either a filter on the pump or the sump, not neither!

Either that or one or the other has been swapped, I’m assuming it could have been the pump as the engine is relatively late.

Whichever it is, it does leave me with the question of whether I add a gauze strainer, either by replacing the pump or the sump.

Karl

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Personally I wouldnt worry about a gauze as long as the pump is within tolerances. Presumably this engine is now going to have regular oil and filter changes plus not do a lot of miles so the chances of large items entering the sump and being sucked into the oil pump are very low... 

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