** 26/02/23 Heading Up ** Probably how not to restore a Herald!

[Bordfunker]

Adrian, thanks for that, I have heard similar horror stories with POR 15 peeling off in sheets due to the surface not being properly keyed.

I’ve got an air powered DA sander ready for this, that is once I finally finish the welding, which is probably still a few months away yet.

Not a lot of progress over the bank holiday weekend.

Well actually none, as I only got into the garage on Monday, and then spent 3 hours making a sheet metal bending brake, which will come in handy over the next few weeks.

Karl

[daverclasper]

Very interesting thread Karl. Thanks

Goodness!. It does make you wonder what is the state of "most?" classics that are driving about. Even the ones with new paint jobs (even more so?).

The Herald/Vit are easier to check out than most as you can access a lot of the panels by removing rear seat/rear door cards etc, but not foolproof I guess?.

I guess the chassis is the main strength in these cars, hopefully?.

Cheers, Dave

  

 

[Bordfunker]

Dave, I knew it wasn’t perfect when I bought it, with holes in the passenger side door, but having checked the usual rot points, boot corners, out riggers etc., I thought it was OK.

Turns out that underseal hides a multitude of sins!

Still I won’t deny I’ve enjoyed the journey so far, and having jumped up and down on the chassis corners after welding in the new sections, I at least know now that I’m building on a sound foundation.

I’m in no rush to get the car the back on the road, so will deal with each new issue as it appears.

Nothing to report this weekend progress wise, with focus being on a number of DIY chores which it had been pointed out that I was avoiding.

Karl

[Bordfunker]

After getting nothing done last week, I thought I had better put in some time in the garage and make a start on the repair patch for the passenger side A-pillar.

I did my usual and tidied up the hole that I had made cutting out the rot the other week, squaring off the angles and straightening out some of the cuts ahead of getting a bit of quality cardboard, in this case a Winalot dog biscuit box, taping it over the hole, and then marking the edges of the aperture with a fine pen.

This was then cut out and test fitted into the hole with masking tape. This generally takes a few goes before I end up with something that I am happy with, and which can then be transferred to 1mm sheet steel.

This was duly done with a cutting disc in the angle grinder, but this leaves we with a flat panel which needs to fit a distinctly non-flat hole in the car, therefore nothing for it but to get bending.

I built this bender the other week out of angle iron as there are a number of bends that need to be made in panels around the car, so reckoned it was time well spent.

It's not a proper sheet brake, but it does, and allowed me to put a radius into the bend in the repair panel.

As you can see the panel is quite an odd shape, as dictated by the pressings under the A-pillar in the picture below.

You can also see where I have inadvertently managed to slice into the panel above with the angle grinder, always a risk when you have panels in close proximity to one another, and easy enough to fix with a bead of weld.

The cuts on the repair panel will be welded up to form one neatly contoured panel, however here it is clamped in position while I checked the fit, something I did a lot of.

Overall fit is quite good, but requires more work next week, but does look pretty good from the inside of the car.

You can see where I've welded up one of the cuts and ground it back in an attempt to match the contours of the original panel on the left hand side.

And that's where I left it for this weekend, 3 and a half hours well spent I think.

Karl

 

[gt6123]

On ‎03‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:48 PM, Bordfunker said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good progress on the herald, keep it up. Just a bit of constructive criticism,  the crack in the metal was caused by you grinding down to much around the weld thinning the metal ( which can be seen by the blueing of the metal)when grinding  always keep the grinder on the welds and never touch the surrounding metal, its easier said than done, but just takes a bit of practice.

[Bordfunker]

Thanks gt6123, that’s a lesson I had to learn the hard way.

I’m a bit less hung ho with the grinder now.

Thanks

Karl

[ShaunW]

I like your bender....if I did that I'd probably just pull my bench over. 

[JohnD]

Karl,

I want to be constructive here, so may I suggest first of all - turn up the heat on your welder, turn down the feed rate and practice the "dither".

I say this, because the welds in the floor, you have ground down before photographing them, but they look like the "bird-poo" stage that I went through.   Bulky, raised off the native metal and so of doubtful penetration.   So more heat and less feed.     The "dither" is the movement of the weld torch, that contributes to the lovely wave-like appearance of a really skilled weld.    Move the torch from side to side in a C-shape, with the points of the C in the direction you are taking the weld.   

I was taught that MiG welding is "taking a drop of molten metal for a walk".  You lead the drop with your torch, as it will move with it, leaving a trail of solidifying metal behind, which is why you need the feed.    Start on the thicker, or more vertical side of the weld, and take the drop across the joint, a little further on and then back again.   And so on, keep it moving and advancing.   The amount of time you spend with the torch on either side of the joint depends on the thickness, less on the thinner.

Good Luck!

John

[Bordfunker]

John, many thanks for the feedback, all happily received as welding is still a developing skill for me.

I do struggle with welding thin steel, and have tried various approaches to try and improve both the quality and appearance of my welds.

At anything above the lowest setting on my welder I start to get blow through if I attempt to seam weld 1mm steel, and so have resorted to going up a power setting, while reducing the wire feed rate as per your advice, but using a series of pulsed welds as per the picture below.

This produces a lower, wider weld which penetrates better, and appears to be good and strong, and almost delivers that much desired 'stack of dimes' look.

As you can see from the 'blueing', there is plenty of heat getting into the weld.

I think when I start on the body panels I will use a lapped joint as opposed to the butt welds I have used elsewhere, as these are a lot more forgiving.

Shaun, luckily the cabinet that forms the bulk of my bench is full of scrap, so weighs a ton!

Karl 

[JohnD]

Karl,

That looks a lot better!   Maybe reduce the feed rate still more, as the weld still looks bulky or else move faster forward.  If those  curves follow the joint, fair enough, if not construct some guide edge parallel to the joint that you can follow.  Physical, a rule clamped nearby, or just a white line, offset from the joint.   I use a welder's silver pencil: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/381499414438?chn=ps&var=650622010497&adgroupid=53506530233&rlsatarget=pla-412513283680&abcId=1133926&adtype=pla&merchantid=113622323&googleloc=1006854&device=c&campaignid=1058609970&crdt=0     Do you have a 'self-darkening' mask?    They make finding and following a line easier, especially if you do it intermittently and allow it to return to normal transparency

Yes, MiG welding thin panels is difficult, especially old, rusted ones.   Cut back with surgical exuberance to get to full thickness for best result.      Another tip is to clamp a piece of scrap aluminium plate behind the joint.    The bigger and  thicker the better, this will act as a heat sink to help prevent blow-through, and support the weld pool. preventing it just falling through a weak panel.

John

[Bordfunker]

John I’ve never seen a pencil specifically for welding before, will have to give that a go.

I do have a self darkening mask, and will typically not weld more than an inch or so without stopping and checking as it’s all too easy to wander off course, and it puts too much heat into the joint as well.

I found that if I backed off the wire feed anymore the arc was intermittent as the feed wasn’t sufficient to maintain the arc.

And the curve was intentional rather than just drunken welding!

Karl

[Bordfunker]

Despite, or because of, it being Father's Day, I only managed an hour and a half in the garage today, so decided to focus on one of the areas I have been dreading, the lower front corner of the passenger side door aperture where it meets the bolt on sill, as this area was paper thin.

I had previously cut out the worst areas of rust, cutting back to decent metal that I could conceivably weld new metal to, which meant an odd shape hole to plug.

Rather than make up a single repair panel, with a very low chance of getting it to fit in all the right places, I made up a couple of L-sections which were then welded in to the gap, leaving me with this.

At this point it has just been tacked in and needs full clean up and trimming as they have been left over length, but that won't happen until the other repair sections have been completed.

It will need any high spots taking down with the grinder, and the a skim of filler, but at least will be solid by the time I'm finished.

So next up was the horizontal portion of the panel and the associated L-section to which the sill attaches, which was roughed out in card before cutting a couple of sections of steel, which were then held in the vice, maintaining the 90 degree angle, and welded up.

Here we part way through the welding, I welded about an inch at a time, cooling the piece with the air line from the compressor to ensure no unwanted distortion of the part.

And then here we are 10 minutes later with the welds ground down as far as I was prepared to go.

In the pic above I have left the vertical section over length as it provided somewhere to attach the earth clamp from the welder.

Satisfied that the welds were all strong, and it wasn't going to disintegrate when removed from the vice, I trimmed the extra length off, and tried it for size where it will finally reside (excuse the tatty glove!).

It will need further trimming before it is attached next week, but before I do that there are a couple of other sections which need to be made up first.

Karl

[Bordfunker]

Despite not getting around to posting last weekend, I did actually get some work done last weekend, not a lot, but some.

It feels like I've been working on the section beneath the passenger side A-pillar for months now, it has been such slow going, mainly because it is a very fiddly area, with a host of different shapes and interfaces.

One of the most complex areas is the section below the bonnet latching point where there is a scalloped area, which then feeds into the passenger side door sill area.

This is what I started with after chopping out the rot.

First up was to create a small patch piece to be welded in.

You can see the scalloping, along with a small return which feeds into the sill, which fitted neatly into the hole created.

Here it is all welded in and ground down, and I'm actually quite pleased with that, a bit of filler and it should look good.

With that welded in, the next task was to attach the section of the sill that I fabricated the other week.

The actual contact point surface between the new piece and the sill is very small, so this had to be carefully tacked in from the rear, leaving me with this.

I then ran a line of small tacks along the front of the join to be on the safe side, leaving me with a nice solid joint.

As I said this will need a coat of filler to provide an acceptable finish, which can then be painted.

Like I said not a lot of progress, but significant in that it tidies up one of the more complex areas.

Karl

[Bordfunker]

As you may have been able to tell from my last post I'm a little bit frustrated with the A-pillar repairs, so decided I would do something different this week to break the monotony of being stuck with my head in the passenger side foot well every weekend.

An added incentive has been the near 30 degree heat over the weekend, which combined with a long stretch of welding, all felt like a recipe for rapid weight loss and chronic dehydration, so time to do something else.

I've been putting off the removal of the remaining under seal from the wheel arches and boot under floor area, so figured I'd break out the white spirit, rags and scrapers and get stripping.

I did use the heat gun to remove some of the thicker areas, but then switched to the white spirit, wire brush and rags, rather than reduce myself to a greasy stain on the garage floor!

I didn't have any white spirit, but brush cleaner works just as well, and leaves you with a nice clean surface.

I also tackled the boot floor area, having done the other side last year when I repaired the boot corners.

This was then attacked with a wire wheel in the angle grinder, and a flap wheel on the drill to remove the loose rust and get down to a stable surface, which could then be painted with the Fe 123 passivator.

There is still more clean up required before I can apply the Fe 123 to the rest of the underside, but this at last feels like progress.

With that done, I thought I would start the work on cutting out the rusty metal between the base of the B-pillar and the rear arch, here we are with the out panel cut back.

Not pretty! The tin worm was taken the vertical flange completely between the body mount and the rear arch, and even attacked the base of the B-pillar where it mounts to the cabin floor.

This illustrates how rotten the vertical web was, as I just had to pull this with one finger, and it just flopped!

Here it is ground back a little further.

And fully cleaned up.

The good news is that floor area is solid, as is the body mounting bracket. There is a little rot at the base of the rear B-pillar web, but nothing too scary.

The base of the rear wing is also solid, so will provide a good mounting point for the repair panel.

The other area that requires attention is the bottom of the rear wheel arch where it meets the wing, and the return of the wing itself where it is welded to the arch.

No real surprise there, as in their wisdom Triumph applied an almighty lump of tar like sealant in the junction of the wing, floor and rear arch, which has just acted as a moisture trap with predictable results!

I know that I now have two holes to repair on the Herald now, and that may not count as progress in some people's book, but discovering and removing the rot on this car does feel like progress of a sort.

I have ordered a set of Clecos to help with the fixing of the rear wing repairs, along with their associated pliers, and I think an air powered joggler may be required as I don't think the manual pair that I have will cut it on the Herald's bodywork.

Karl

[Bordfunker]

After last week's excavations of the B-pillar, and cutting out of at least some of the rot, it was time to make a start on replacing some of the rotten metal with new, starting with the lower front rear wheel arch.

Given the odd shape of the area to be repaired, and the fact it also had to form the return on the inside of the rear wheel arch, I opted to use a couple of sections of new steel.

Here it is held in place with a magnet, and then welded in 10 minutes later.

You can see here that it only forms the rear of the arch, the lip was formed next from another piece of steel.

Now this didn't quite go to plan, as having welded in the portion that was to form the lip, I realised that I had got the angle wrong, and therefore had to make a cut with the angle grinder, which then allowed me to ease the section back a fraction and into the correct alignment, before welding up the cut.

And that should have been that, but this morning I noticed that where I had welded the new section of the inner lip to the old, the old had become overly thin where I had ground it back, so nothing for it but to start again working from sound metal this time.

Here's the new section, folded up and held in place ready for welding.

And here it is all welded up and ground back.

Given that these welds won't be seen, I haven't ground them back any more that I need to allow fitment of the outer panels.

With that out of the way I turned my attention to the other end of the hole at the base of the B-pillar, the flange to which the repair panel attaches aft of the door.

As you can see rust had crept between the two panels, which meant first drilling out the spot weld holding the panels together to allow them to pealed apart and the rust cleaned out before another coat of FE 123. 

With that done I then had to work out how to replace the flange section. I could have just welded a section at 90 degrees to the panel edge, but I wasn't convinced this would work particularly well considering my level of welding skill. Therefore I cut out a larger section into which I could insert a new L-section which would be easier to weld and clean up.

Here's the L-section resting in situ, along with it's big brother.

The whole vertical section of steel in front of the body mounting back to the wheel arch was gone, so a repair section needed to be made up, thankfully it's a simple L-section again, just on a much larger scale.

You can see above how it sits relative to the rest of the repairs.

As per usual cardboard played it's key role in templating the repair panel.

That's most of the repair patches made up, I just need to make up a section to tie the base of the outside of the B-pillar to the new vertical section in front of the mounting bracket, and then it's time to start welding in earnest.

But before I can do that, and in order to avoid doing this again any time soon, everything got a coat of weld through primer.

Once all the welding is done I will be dosing all the interior cavities with Rust Busters cavity wax, which should protect it all for a few more years.

Thankfully I'm off this week, so in between trips to Ikea, and a list of DIY chores I'm hoping to get the section completed, after which I ought to get back to sorting out that bulkhead A-pillar repair.

Karl

[Bordfunker]

So in between Ikea and DIY I managed to get some time on the B-pillar repairs.

Here's the repair panel I made last week held in place with my latest acquisition - Clecos.

And the smaller repair panel with the mini clamps that came with the Cleco set.

I'm really impressed with the Cleco's they are excellent and a great way of holding repair panels in place without bulky clamps, which always seem to be exactly where I need to weld.

First up the vertical panel was welded where the spot welds attached to the body mounting bracket.

Closely followed a continuous weld on the smaller repair panel.

Which was then cleaned up with a flap disc.

I also had to create a small lip on the back of the vertical panel to close a gap between it and the repair panel I bought for the B-pillar to wheel arch area.

It's been drilled to accept a Cleco when it finally comes tome to fit the outer panel.

Next up was the reinforcing panel which links the outside of the B-pillar to the floor, and the replacement vertical section.

In order to fit properly I had to create a step for the section to fit over the floor, which was done in the vice with a hammer and a section of angle iron.

I'm actually quite pleased with the welding on this, as I've been taking JohnD's advice and keeping the wire speed low but with a higher power setting, which produces a better looking weld bead with better penetration and therefore strength.

And the whole lot as it currently stands.

Not all that pretty, but a million times better than what wasn't there before, and it'll soon be covered up by this.

Who would have thought fitting this one panel would require 5 other smaller repair sections to have to be made up? No wonder professional restorations cost a few bob.

Now at this point was expecting to be in possession of an air powered flanging tool courtesy of Machine Mart, but despite ordering it before my week off, it won't arrive until after.

The aim was to create a stepped flange just below the swage line on the rear wing ahead of the rear wheel, into which I could then weld the top of the repair panel.

Before anyone says, I know that the repair panel already has a step pressed into it, but it faces up, and lapped joints like this should always face down as it makes it less likely for moisture to gather in the join.

And I know that I could just butt weld it, but I don't trust my welding to be neat enough for that, which given that this is the first visible panel I'm doing is a major consideration.

I may go back to the A-pillar tomorrow, or try repairing the rear of the driver's side arch where there is a perforated section a couple of inches long.

Karl

[Paul H]

Hi Karl where did you get the Cleco set from . They look like a must have 

Paul

[Anglefire]

10 hours ago, Bordfunker said:

Now at this point was expecting to be in possession of an air powered flanging tool courtesy of Machine Mart, but despite ordering it before my week off, it won't arrive until after.

Amazon have them - a bit dearer but would get it this week.  Depends how much your time is worth. 

[Bordfunker]

Paul I got the Cleco from A B Tools on EBay. 

It was £25 for 10 Clecos, the 2 clamps and the special pliers for setting them.

That was about the cheapest that I could find them.

Definitely pleased that I got them as they are excellent.

Angel, annoyingly Machine Mart dispatched the tool on Friday, and I got a 24 hour delivery note from Parcel Force on Friday as well, so was hoping for the tool arrive yesterday.

Apparently though, 24 hours doesn’t mean the same to Parcel Force!

Not as if I don’t have plenty of other stuff to be getting on with.

But thanks all the same.

Karl

[Bordfunker]

Of course first day back after a week off and the clamping tool turns up!

That didn't stop me making some progress yesterday, focussing on the scabby portion of the driver's side arch.

The inner lip of the arch was holed, through both the return on the outer wing, and the lip of the wheel well pressing, necessitating cutting out sections of both.

Unfortunately I forgot to take any pictures before I started work, so we'll jump in with the inner lip repair section in place.

All very quick and easy, and once ground down ready for the next stage.

Next up was the more difficult part of the repair, as I needed to create an L-shaped curved section to complete the flange of the wheel arch.

I started with an offcut that I had pre-primed.

It's already an L-shape, and the black marker indicates where the curved portion needs to end, and a flat portion formed to match the rear of the wheel arch.

I don't possess a metal shrinking or stretching tool, so I started with this on the back of the vice, looking very straight.

To get the section to bend while preserving the L profile I started tapping the section of the L that will form the vertical part of the wheel arch, with a panel beaters hammer.

A couple of minutes of firm tapping produced this.

A gently curving repair section which matches the wheel arch and preserves the perfect 90 degree angle of the L.

When I saw this method described I thought it was witchcraft, but it's actually really easy.

And here it is resting in position.

Overall well pleased with that, and that's where I left it for the weekend.

Next week I'll weld it all up, along with the repair section between B-pillar and rear arch.

Karl

[Bordfunker]

I have to start off with a pic of my latest toy, given that it is finally here.

So with this now in my grubby mitts, I set about neatening up the area to be flanged on the rear wing, cutting it back to a straight line, utilising a piece of angle iron clamped to the wing as a guide, as I can't cut a straight line to save my life!

You can just about see the scribed line which represents the edge of the flanged area and this the start of the repair panel.

So having practised on a couple of pieces of scrap steel, I set about creating the stepped edge with the flanging tool.

More difficult than it looks, particularly in my dim garage, no chance to open the door due to the high winds that we are experiencing at the moment, come back heat wave!

A few more runs with the tool left me with a straight, stepped edge that I could work with, which meant it was time to trial fit the new panel.

I had already cut the flange off the repair panel, and ground down the lip that it left, to ensure a good fit, but hadn't anticipated that it would be too deep where it attaches to the B-pillar.

Luckily while rummaging in the study last week I had found my contour gauge, which was promptly pressed into action.

A decent slice of metal needed to be ground off the repair panel to ensure a good fit, which was duly achieved with a flap disc in the angle grinder, leaving me with this.

As you can see I've been making use of the hole punch facility on the new tool as well, creating the holes for plug welding that will finally attach the panel to the rest of the car.

So much easier than the manual tool I bought last year, which requires biceps considerably stronger than those of a weedy office worker!

Which left me with a panel which actually fitted.

Now it was time for the Clecos.

There is still some fettling to be done, particularly where the repair panel meets the bottom of the rear arch, but nothing too major.

I'm taking all this very slowly at the moment as I don't want to cock it all up, given that this is virgin territory for me.

Hopefully I'll get some time to complete the fettling, and actually start welding today.

Karl

[Phil C]

Hi Karl

Just joined the forum and found your thread and read through all!!

I am just commencing a Mk2 Vitesse restoration myself so all this information you have provided is very interesting and useful.

Like you I am on a steep learning curve (particularly with welding!) so thank you for taking the time to post all this.

I recognise all those body repairs covered and no doubt I will be attempting the the same over the coming months.

My car was partially dismantled on purchase so I am starting from a bare chassis which sometimes appears like an advantage but sometimes not when I think of the work ahead.

Currently just replaced the outriggers. New ones came with the car so I thought it would be rude not to. The welding improves from front to back and then from left to right and is at its best on the boot outriggers ?. Need a lot more practice however before starting on bodywork?

Look forward to your next instalment.

[Colin Lindsay]

I couldn't work out what was wrong with that chassis until I realised it's Vitesse, and probably rotoflex (or lever arm rear suspension)? I'm too long in the Herald camp!

Phil and Karl, I'm seriously in awe, and as my long-time fall-back welder has gone to a new job and can't spare me time any more for Heraldy-bits, I'm going to have to learn how to weld.

Keep the updates coming and John - keep the advice coming!

[Bordfunker]

Phil, many thanks for the kind words and encouragement.

Your chassis is looking very tidy, and although it's a nuisance having to strip and replace all the out riggers, it does at least leave you knowing that the backbone of the car is solid for another 30 years.

Colin, I would definitely advocate getting a MiG welder and learning to weld. It does take time to practise, and can be infuriating when it not's going well, but does get easier and rapidly repays the investment in kit when you have a car like mine!

I did actually get the repair section welded up on Sunday, despite the best efforts of Halfords Weld Through primer, which I can assure you is not, as I found out to my chagrin.

I had very neatly plug welded all the holes that I had drilled, leaving some of the best plug welds I have ever done, and was very pleased with them, only to find that after removing the clamps, that the weld through primer had stopped the weld from bonding to the panel behind.

I tried drilling the welds out, but have you ever tried drilling weld? In the end gave up and seam welded it all in.

Still some clean up to do, but it's definitely on it's way.

I'll post some pics next week.

Karl

[68vitesse]

Agree welder is very usful, have made gates repaired fire grates, barbeques, fans and various tools etc. have even managed to do welding on my Vitesse for myself.

You have been warned.

Regards

Paul