Seized Studs

[Adrian]

Hi Chaps

I've got one manifold stud that just won't budge. Did the two nut trick - I felt if I'd pushed anymore it would snap. Remaining thread is healthy so should I just leave? I've replaced the others - should I use copper slip or would that just burn off.

Secondly the manifold to exhaust studs are in much worse state. I'm much more cautious of these as its cast iron. Use as is and hope? I think the only way would be to drill these out.

Thanks

Adrian

[Pete Lewis]

i would leave the head studs as is,  use an anti seize compound if you like , not overly needed but why not.

as for the triangle flange if they break why not drill out and use a bolt instead , if theres room and a decent flat surface for it its head to seat on.

gun metal or brass nuts are whats needed on exhausts .

Pete

 

[Guest]

Hello Adrian.

I agree with Pete on both stud dilemmas.

Provided that the exposed thread on the head stud can take the nut on tightening then I would leave it be, after cleaning up the threads.

With regard to the exhaust manifold at least you have got it off which makes working on it much easier.

Out of interest what rust breaking fluid are you using ??

Something of quality like Plus Gas really will do the trick albeit time consuming - you have nothing to lose so I would try spending a few hours at least to ease them off. You may find that a gentle tightening movement on the stud can be just as effective as trying the unlocking motion. Apply liberal amounts of rust buster and you may well win the day.

The other option is to use direct heat to try and free the studs; after heating them try to move them back & forth and then as they start to cool down apply some rust buster which hopefully will sneak in to the thread of the stud due to the heat application. There will be some slight smoke but that is to be expected. The whole process may take 1/2 a day or so, but as mentioned worth giving it a go.

In combination with the above I have also used a very light hammer to gently tap studs, the resonance or something like that can assist breaking the rust grip between the two mating surfaces. 

If the above fails and no chance of shifting, then cut the studs flush and drill out the stud to make way for a new nut and bolt set-up as Pete suggests.

With regard to using brass nuts, that really is a must and makes it so easy to undo in years to come. I have used them on cylinder head studs for various classics and where the exhaust manifold meets the downpipe. Certainly on the latter issue (exhaust manifold studs) using anything else will bring you back to your current situation and the games will commence once more !! 

Good luck.

Richard.

[JohnD]

If the manifold stud has useful threads, leave it alone!

On the flange, again, it's the exposed threads that get eaten away, so if the rest are still there, use them!

Double nutting is, to be honest, a desperate measure bordering in bodge.  Invest in a stud extractor, NOT the type that forces a knurled wheel against the stud, but a 'roller' extractor (see below) that grips the stud allong oits length and won't damage it.       Not cheap about £10 each.

As Pete said, non-ferrous nuts will help prevent them seizing again, but not Brass, which is a soft metal.    You need Bronze nuts, available in eBay, again not cheap, about 50p each, but worthwhile.

John

[dave.vitesse]

I agree with Pete and Richard. Be careful of the manifold as it is cast and can break if you apply to much pressure. Cut and drill out, then re-tap is the best way. When their out you can re-work the flange surface.

[Adrian]

To be honest I'm only using WD40 which obviously does nothing for rust. I'll look up some rust buster.

I've already got the brass nuts. Its been a slow process because there has been no disassembly maintenance on the engine (other than gear box) for nearly 30 years. I was expecting the nuts to shear because as you can see the stud threads are in very poor corroded condition. I was surprised they moved as all the manifold nuts were rusted steel.

I suppose I can attempt to drill out and re-tap or as worst case drill out and bolt.

  

[Guest]

Hello Adrian.

I had a feeling you may be using WD40; this is no good at all as it is a water dispersant (hence WD) - you really do need to use something like Plus Gas or just use Plus Gas.

When you use this, your case will accelerate towards a positive result.

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Plus-Gas-Releasing-Fluid-Aero-400ml-Dismantiling-Lubricant/332436171019?epid=1732336551&hash=item4d66bd690b:g:vrYAAOSwDkVZ~GHl

Regards.

Richard.

[JohnD]

Heat, try heat if you MUST get them out.

Heat the flange, keep the stud cool - wrap it in wet newspaper!

And I've had success with the candle method!    Heat the part and rub a candle into it, so the molten wax falls on the joint.  Let it soak in and heat again.  Repeat!

John

[Pete Lewis]

Memories of  fourcandles  ....  comes to mind

Pete

[Adrian]

Richard, Wow, never knew that (genuine). Will have a look at the link.

 

thanks all

[Gadgetman]

As most have mentioned, leave the head stud in. The manifold stud: build op a plastacine volcano crater / dam around the stud. Pour in some of this https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/MouseMilk-Penetrating-Oil-8-Oz-Packing-Mouse-Milk-Worldwide-Filter-/301793234519

and leave overnight to penetrate. Remove the plasticine & heat the manifold with a good blow torch. Keep the stud cool with wet rag. Then try one of these especially good in a 1/2 drive impact gun  

http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/tools/hand-tools/laser-impact-stud-extractor-1-2-drive?cm_mmc=Google+PLA-_-Tools-_-Hand+Tools-_-121932&istCompanyId=b8708c57-7a02-4cf6-b2c0-dc36b54a327e&istItemId=lwqirl&istBid=tztl&_$ja=tsid:94971|cid:865695754|agid:42483195983|tid:pla-331463653198|crid:203186066553|nw:g|rnd:12871476095304801569|dvc:m|adp:1o3|mt:|loc:1006717&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuZeey7HZ1wIVZrftCh1kPQROEAQYAyABEgK3ZPD_BwE

 

Hasnt failed me yet!

 

[steveweblin]

18 hours ago, JohnD said:

If the manifold stud has useful threads, leave it alone!

On the flange, again, it's the exposed threads that get eaten away, so if the rest are still there, use them!

Double nutting is, to be honest, a desperate measure bordering in bodge.  Invest in a stud extractor, NOT the type that forces a knurled wheel against the stud, but a 'roller' extractor (see below) that grips the stud allong oits length and won't damage it.       Not cheap about £10 each.

As Pete said, non-ferrous nuts will help prevent them seizing again, but not Brass, which is a soft metal.    You need Bronze nuts, available in eBay, again not cheap, about 50p each, but worthwhile.

John

I have broken these in the past.  They get loss studs out but if the stud is stuck fast it is all too easy to apply so much torque that extractor fails. 

When putting the stud extractor back in its box I read the instructions which included this warning in red:

WARNING:

USE TORQUE RANGE LESS THAN

1/4" 6MM 15FT/LB 20N,

5/15" 8MM 15FT/LB 20NM

3/8" 10MM 25FT/LB 33NM

7/16" 12MM 25FT/LB 33NM

[Pete Lewis]

Ive used the one gadjetman suggest with a 1/2 drive battery impact gun and theres not much this has ever failed on 

and talking studs  you have a   MK1 engine so i would release a head nut and examine the washer for deformation, you can change them all do one at a time

its common these washers collapse and you loose clamping due to lost torque

Pete

[Gadgetman]

30 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

Ive used the one gadjetman suggest with a 1/2 drive battery impact gun and theres not much this has ever failed on 

and talking studs  you have a   MK1 engine so i would release a head nut and examine the washer for deformation, you can change them all do one at a time

its common these washers collapse and you loose clamping due to lost torque

Pete

Pete it was you who put me into this stud remover and I’ve not regretted buying it!

[JohnD]

Steve,

No one seems to publish the safe working load of roller sud extractors, but 15 ft/lbs is piffling!

"Hand tight" is not an accurate measure, but it's how tight you can get it with hand power, not arm/shoulder, and it's about 12 ft/lbs!   

Of course, you get what you pay for and a good quality extractor will stand far more, IMHO.     If you really want to risk snapping the stud, then one of those knurled eccentric wheel jobbies usually come with a half inch drive, so stronger.      

Work the stud both ways, start by tightening it!   Then when you get some movement continue to work it to and fro, add lubricant/penetrant, and if it squeals, STOP!   It's about to break!   Go back, add more juice. try again later!

John

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Work the stud both ways, start by tightening it!   Then when you get some movement continue to work it to and fro, add lubricant/penetrant, and if it squeals, STOP!   It's about to break!   Go back, add more juice. try again later!

I fully agree John and to be honest I have had a 99% success rate with the "stud wriggle" - yes it can be time consuming but there is a certain sense of satisfaction when you get that first moment of the stud freeing off.

Regards.

Richard. 

[Algy]

I would weld a nut onto the stud close to the casting, then I would heat the whole exhaust flange and then shock cool the studs (being careful not to shock cool the casting). Use a deep reach socket with a “T” handle so there isn’t a side load, to undo the studs. Just make sure you remove any coating off the nuts first and use a large nut so you can get a good welded joint.

From my experiance the roller stud tools these are great for fitting studs but unless you get a good one they are generally not that effective at extracting studs in the state that yours are in on the flange.

[dougbgt6]

2 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

Ive used the one gadjetman suggest with a 1/2 drive battery impact gun and theres not much this has ever failed on

Except my block studs, afterwards you said "Tell no one about this!" 

[Pete Lewis]

Doug you left out the 3ft breaker bar and a frozen shoulder after shock   but the driver held its grip

Twas the battery whacker that lost its umpf.

There was a charging problem now sorted ,    back to clatter   clatter   whizzzz.

 

Pete

 

[dave.vitesse]

3 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

Doug you left out the 3ft breaker bar and a frozen shoulder after shock   but the driver held its grip

Twas the battery whacker that lost its umpf.

There was a charging problem now sorted ,    back to clatter   clatter   whizzzz.

 

Pete

 

I see your using predicted text on your PC Pete.

Dave 

[Pete Lewis]

If I knew where that was itmight improve this is the silly tablet , I dont spel it dont type, all hope is lost 

I just stick to take the .....tablets

Pete

[dave.vitesse]

That's me after a couple of glasses of red wine!

Dave

[Adrian]

Just thought I’d close out this thread. Went for the laser stud removal tool. Fantastic grip came out straight away 5 mins for all 3. But it does mess the stud up. Your comments gave me great confidence. I will leave the one in the head though as it is still serviceable.

[Guest]

Excellent result, well done Adrian.

Regards.

Richard.

[Anglefire]

Irwin extractors are what I have used in the past - but don't expect to reuse the stud/bolt!