Replacing Inertia Starter with Powerlite Hi Torque Starter

[willis]

Hi everyone, Just to let you know that new starter is on. Not only that, but it went on with no issues thank goodness. Still not turning over however. Might be a problem with old ignition on column? Ignition light comes on but not turning engine. Could also be old battery or a combination of them both? I feel a call to a sparky is in order as soon as I get time.                                     Cheers, Rob

[Colin Lindsay]

Might be the solenoid.... is power getting to the starter at all? It's just a case of seeing where the break is ie if the key makes the light come on then that should be ok although check the terminal for the starter current and not just the ignition circuit - if you turn the key one click and the light comes on, that's the ignition circuit powered up but the next turn of the key activates the starter; if that's still attached then next stop along the line is the solenoid so see if there's any current entering, and more especially, leaving when the key is turned.

[willis]

Hi Colin, thanks for your advice, I have taken it all on board. However, unfortunately I don't know how to test for these things as electrics are way outside my capabilities, but I know a man that can so I will give him a call and let him have a look at it. I will give a progress report as soon as I can.                                                                                                                                                       Thanks again, Rob

[Colin Lindsay]

Electrics are simple - power comes in one end and goes out the other; if not there's either a switch or a break. A simple 12v tester (basically a screwdriver with a bulb in it!) will let you see how far the current is getting. £3.34 on eBay and a very simple piece of kit to start you on route to the exciting and very basic world of Triumph electrics! It's a great feeling when you start to identify faults and work out how to overcome them.

[willis]

Cheers Colin, I think I've got one of those screwdriver testers somewhere. I'll dig it out and have a go.                                                                                                                                                              Thanks, Rob

[willis]

Hi Paul, in the photo you posted of your starter is the second lead a extra earth? If so, did you connect it directly to the battery?                                                                                                                      Cheers, Rob

[Paul H]

On 8/8/2018 at 11:03 AM, willis said:

Hi Paul, in the photo you posted of your starter is the second lead a extra earth? If so, did you connect it directly to the battery?                                                                                                                      Cheers, Rob

Hi Rob the second lead is an extra earth and is directly connected to the negative side of the battery . Belt and Braces approach 

Paul 

[willis]

Cheers Paul, sounds like a plan to me. I think I'll try that myself                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Rob

[Anglefire]

This sounds to that the existing solenoid is not working properly - or as said the column switch is knackered.

One way to test is to use a jump lead from the battery to the starters main terminal - just be away that the jump lead end will be "hot" when connected to the battery - so might be better to connect to the starter first and then touch the +ve battery terminal - depends if there is a risk of the starter end touching to earth at anytime.

If that works the fault lies further back in either the existing solenoid or the feed to it.

Simply connect a +ve wire to the switched side of the solenoid and it should energise the solenoid, which in turn will put power onto the starter. If that doesn't work its either the starter (Not likely) or the ignition switch or the solenoid. You then need to trace it back to confirm you have power at the right point on the switch.

Its a lot easier than it sounds - BTW one of the screwdriver type testers may not work on 12v dc - a simple bulb attached to a couple of wires would be better - or a simple £5 multimeter from where ever.

The other way to wire up these starters, is to remove the link from the +ve post the the lucar connector - put a permanent feed to the +ve post and use the existing solenoid as a relay and apply power to the lucar connector to start the car - ie make it a traditional pre-engaged starter - depends if your solenoid is just a bit dodgy and simply can't take the starting load through it or is bust. Though I do think there is an auxiliary contact on it too which you could use to connect to the starter.

As said electrics in these cars is in reality very very simple. 

[Paul H]

10 hours ago, willis said:

Cheers Paul, sounds like a plan to me. I think I'll try that myself                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Rob

Hi Rob , use a piece of string to determine length & source from ebay , cost about £7 . I brought mine behind the battery box and connected to a common earth bolt, saves an extra cable direct to the battery - In the pic you cant see the earth cable though its connected to the bolt - Also very easy to add additional earth wires if needed 

Hope this helps

Paul 

[willis]

Ayup chaps, pinched battery off wifes MGB and my Vitesse turned over first time. Seems I was stressing over nothing. (Hate to admit it, but it was her idea). I think I'll ask wife to finish the rest of the car as she's obviously got more ability than I have. I'm never going to live this down. By the way, does anyone know how long it takes for oil pressure to build up on a new fully rebuilt engine with spin on filter conversion? I've turned it over without starting it but not for long as I don't want to ruin it. Any advise would be greatly appreciated.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Thanks, Rob

Edited August 11, 2018 by willis
additional information required

[willis]

It's me again, my amps gauge has 2 wires coming off the back of it. They are quite long and I was wondering what they are connected to. Are they coupled direct to the battery or some thing else?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Thanks, Rob

[Pete Lewis]

They take the main (brown feed) from the battery solenoid terminal and feed back to record all electric usage

They can carry very high amps if all services are in use  best removed and binned , to reduce long wires and good place for fire risk

A volt meter tells you about the battery condition and does not carry any load  its just linked to the ignition circuit 

Pete

 

[willis]

Cheers Pete, do both wires go to the same connection on the battery solenoid or is one a earth wire?                                                                                                                                                                   Rob

[Pete Lewis]

 

No  if it went to earth you would have one heck of a short circuit amd lotsmof melted harness

The ammeter is  fitted in line with the main supply   every thing you use gpes through it

The leads come from a battery source through the ammeter and virtually back from whence it came

Normally a good section brown lead  cant do a sketch on here , needs a clever hand.

Pete

 

 

 

[willis]

Thanks again Pete. Please excuse my ignorance in this matter as I'm not skilled in this field or indeed anything to do with electrical or mechanical issues. However, with your help and that of everyone else on this fantastic forum, I know I'll get there in the end.                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Cheers, Rob

[Anglefire]

There are ways of safely measuring current (requires a shunt resistor of known value and the actually a voltmeter calibrated in Amps) 

But as Pete says, ammeters are largely redundant.

[TRevver]

I've recently fitted one of these Powerlite units to a 2l MK1 Vitesse (Powerlite RAC101) purchased from the Club shop and thought it might be worth sharing my installation experience!

It comes with a captive stud to "assist fitting". This means that the unit can only be fitted properly by removing the gearbox tunnel cover and can't be fitted (easily, if at all) from the engine bay side alone. (I tried fitting it from the engine bay side first - and there isn't any way of tightening the nut that fits on the captive stud, especially the supplied nyloc nut).

The cover is fairly easy to remove and re-install without removing the seats etc. It was suggested to remove the heater outlet (two nuts and the heater pipes) to allow the front flange of the tunnel to wiggle out, which is a good idea.

It will make the job easier if all of this is done BEFORE removing the old starter motor as spanners can be secured in position from the gearbox (passenger compartment) side of the car whilst the old starter is removed from the engine bay side - much easier than trying to hold a spanner underneath the car (for the bottom bolt) or using a crowfoot (for the top).

It is also worth noting that it's difficult to correctly torque the nut onto the captive stud because a socket won't fit properly - as it tightens up, it will interfere with the clutch bell housing (at least it did on mine). I ended up using a spanner to get it about right and then a second nut up against the first to secure it.

The picture shows the location of the captive stud from the passenger compartment side.

 

[Colin Lindsay]

1 minute ago, TRevver said:

It is also worth noting that it's difficult to correctly torque the nut onto the captive stud because a socket won't fit properly - as it tightens up, it will interfere with the clutch bell housing (at least it did on mine). I ended up using a spanner to get it about right and then a second nut up against the first to secure it.

I can't remember how I fitted mine all those years ago - it's been removed since and regreased - but I don't remember taking all the insides out; must go out later and see what access I have. 

If you have difficulty getting the socket onto the nut due to restricted space you need a slim socket - they're usually quite thin-walled and a lot longer than a normal socket - but they're designed for spaces like this. I have quite a few and usually bought for one job only (the top bolt on a Landrover TD5 starter motor, for example) but sometimes it's the only option.

Just as an aside I found this photo recently, so if you think the Triumph is awkward....

 

[RogerH]

I know that not all our cars are the same.

However on my TR4A it has a plastic tunnel and has holes cut all over it with rubber bungs and SpeedTape covering them all.

I was in the LakeDisrict  a few years ago and my Hi-Torque starter began playing and needed to be removed.

The Local garage in Keswick were useless and I was having serious trouble removing the starter.

In the end I roll the drivers side carpet up and made a 3" hole somewhere behind the starter to access that top nut. It took 10  15 minutes but it worked.

I could then repair the starter in the camp site and reinstall.

I have holes for GB oil filler, OD angle drive, starter top nut, OD jigging hole for alignment, OD Solenoid access. And it is also cut into two pieces to aid removal.

 

Roger  

[Pete Lewis]

makes you wonder why Triumph never made access easy , even my first 52 Minx had a bung in the hump to get at a gearbox dipstick and filler .

so yours is now more holes than........ tunnel  Ha !  brilliant 

Pete