*$*$ Drive shafts

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

              You may remember last year I had a rear wheel bearing fail while on holiday in Spain but thank,s to a fellow member got it sorted.

So when we got home I thought right 2 new drive shafts and new (quality) bearings and u/j,s!

I thought that,s it my troubles are over in that department!!!!!!!

When touring northern Ireland later in the year I heard a very light rotational squeak! so 2,500 miles later I thought I should find out what it is?

All inspections showed b***ger all wrong and no noise when jacked up!!!!

So off with the drive shaft etc and the problem became clear the yoke was loose on the splines (Indian/Chinese C***p)

So I have refitted the Original Triumph one with new bearings and u/j (it was from the same side?(Fate?)) 

Those £1000 upgraded ones are looking more attractive now?

Roger

 

[hugh]

The std items are perfectly adequate with OE quality parts, problem is rubbish parts from places unknown , never has problem with o/e stuff even with a 220bhp turbo engine on a tr7 5 speed box on std drive shafts, age is also a factor as most are now the best part of 50 years old,  when the turbo engine went in the spit we managed to find a pair of new triumph shafts, guess very difficult now

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Hugh

                    You are correct I was being Flippant about wasting £1000 on drive shafts for a road car! I have only spent a bit more than that on building a new engine with balanced crank ,Newman cam, reborn,decked,etc

Roger

Ps I think I will look for some good used ones as spares!

[yorkshire_spam]

26 minutes ago, rogerguzzi said:

Hello Hugh

                    You are correct I was being Flippant about wasting £1000 on drive shafts for a road car! I have only spent a bit more than that on building a new engine with balanced crank ,Newman cam, reborn,decked,etc

Roger

Ps I think I will look for some good used ones as spares!

They do crop up on e(vil)Bay from time to time. I've previously bought (at 2 different times) 2 pairs of rear shafts complete with uprights and brake back plates from about 70 to 90 quid per pair delivered. Of those 4 I ended up with 1 scrap shaft and 3 really good ones to re-use.

[hugh]

My lad may have a couple of rear shafts with uprights and mgf disc conversion

[daverclasper]

Sorry to hear that about the crap shafts Roger.

Got a couple of questions please.

I understand, it's difficult to access a bearings condition while under spring tension on the car?.

If so are there any particular noises/symptoms a bad one makes while driving?.

As a bearing starts to breakup, does it damage the shaft surface very quickly?.

Any help great, thanks.

Cheers, Dave

[rogerguzzi]

1 hour ago, daverclasper said:

Sorry to hear that about the crap shafts Roger.

Got a couple of questions please.

I understand, it's difficult to access a bearings condition while under spring tension on the car?.

If so are there any particular noises/symptoms a bad one makes while driving?.

As a bearing starts to breakup, does it damage the shaft surface very quickly?.

Any help great, thanks.

Cheers, Dave

Hello Dave

                    The uj,s usually click

The yokes I have had come loose both only make a slight noise(a soft crunching noise) and only heard at very low speed and on a smooth surface.

The bearing fail I had was quite quick but I limped on a long way knowing that the shaft was getting B****ed and I think it was due to a ball race failing(I found out later the bearings had been sold as UK made but were only UK finished (Chinese?)

In the end it sounded like a load of marbles in a bucket!

The whole cage had broken up which caused the needle roller to fail as well

Roger

[rogerguzzi]

4 hours ago, hugh said:

My lad may have a couple of rear shafts with uprights and mgf disc conversion

Hello Hugh

                     I would be interested in the shafts not sure about the disc conversion!

Roger

[rlubikey]

Hi Roger. I think we're all learning about the poor quality of "new" parts. You've narrowed your squeak down to the yoke and I've recently noticed a squeak coming from the rear of my swing-axle Spit. I heard an interesting theory - albeit related to the hub on these shafts. Somebody speculated that, with our higher power engines, swapping a second-hand shaft from left to right or vice versa was unwinding the tension and reversing it, loosening the hub. I wonder if the same might apply to the yoke? Which of course begs the question; is there any way of telling which side a shaft has previously been fitted?

Cheers, Richard

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

                I have just frightened the S***t out of myself !

I thought I will look at the failed drive shaft

I thought I would try and press the ROLL PIN out of the Kn****D shaft

Well to be honest I think I could have pushed it out by hand! and this is how it came out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The photos show the grim picture?

Roger

ps it is 6mm I am thinking I will jack the car up tomorrow and see if I can push the other one out and fit a high tensile bolt for now for peace of mind!

Those expensive ones are looking good value now?

[Pete Lewis]

Shouldnt these be a solid pin not a roll pin 

Normally pretty impossible to remove 

Cant see  how a spirol or roll pin can take the shear effect of the suspension  working 

Pete

[Nick Jones]

They should be a solid pin and one made from a strong material at that.  The splines should also be a firm press fit as without that, it doesn't matter what the pin is made from - it will fail eventually.

Same failure as the Herald estate in Samarkand, but after fewer miles and on smoother roads (well, bit smoother).

My concern is that if all of these repro shafts are being sold with slack splines and roll pins, I believe they are wholly unfit for purpose, more failures are inevitable and could easily lead to a serious accident.

If you've bought new shafts recently, check to see if they have a roll pin (you'll be able to see daylight through it as the pin is hollow).  If they are on a car you use, I'd also have a close look at the area where the splines meet and if there is any sign of movement there, be afraid and I'd be getting straight onto the supplier...... and don't be afraid to show them Rogers pics and/or the ones posted by the intrepid overlanders.  Glad all 3 Triumphs in this household are roto/CV equipped cars......

Nick

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

                An update on this problem of mine I emailed the supplier with details below and I have had 2 replies

 

Hello Sirs

     I purchased

two Triumph Spitfire Drive

shafts from you on the 04/07/2017   Part No 155928

One of these drive shafts started to make a soft crunching/squeaking noise at about 500 miles but I could not see at the time any fault so I thought it may be a faulty universal joint and carried on using the car for the rest of the summer.

Over the winter months I did a bit more investigating into the noise and found that the yoke had come loose on the drive shaft and all that stopped it coming out of engagement was a ROLL PIN - which was breaking up!!! I have also checked the second shaft, which is still fitted, to the car and this is also showing slight signs of movement having now covered  5,000 road miles.

Triumph fitted a solid pin in this position and we assume their Engineers knew what they were doing as this is a Safety feature and also, on the OE shaft, the yoke is a press fit onto the shaft requiring several tons of pressure to fit it.

As the combination of too loose a fit of the spline and a wholly inadequate pinning method can cause the shaft to pull right out, resulting in the collapse of the rear suspension (and has done so on at least one occasion I am aware of - see link below), I think you need to advise your suppliers of the potential failures of these parts as it could lead to at best badly damaged cars and at worst loss of life with all claims that will bring!  You may also wish to advise your colleagues in the retail sector of this safety risk.

I have attached photos showing the roll pin(as it came out) that just pushed out and the fretting of the shaft where it had been moving in the yoke.  

This drive shaft had only covered 1800 miles

You may also like to read this report of one of these type that failed (I am not saying you supplied these but they look like they are of the same type I think?)

Roger Greening       14/08/2018

http://forum.tssc.org.uk/topic/3850-reproduction-herald-driveshafts/

Hi Roger,

Thank you very much for informing us of this, we have not had any other comments as yet. I will forward your email to the supplier and let you know what they say.

Regards, Paul.

 

Hi Roger,

The initial feedback from our supplier is that they have not seen this problem previously. They are going to examine a couple of shafts in their workshops to assess how securely the yoke is attached to the shaft.

I will let you know.

Regards, Paul.

 

So we will see what the suppliers say! I may have just been unlucky and had the only 2 faulty ones!

Roger

[Ben Caswell]

I think they need to understand that the drive shaft is also part of the suspension and the fact that it not only turns but it also pushes and pulls as the suspension works under load. The roll pin is getting compressed as its not solid.

Roger I help the Marlin Owners Club with the Triumph based cars and would like to flag this up in a forth coming mag.

Can I borrow your pictures which show the problem quite clearly.

Ben Caswell.

[rogerguzzi]

1 minute ago, Ben Caswell said:

I think they need to understand that the drive shaft is also part of the suspension and the fact that it not only turns but it also pushes and pulls as the suspension works under load. The roll pin is getting compressed as its not solid.

Roger I help the Marlin Owners Club with the Triumph based cars and would like to flag this up in a forth coming mag.

Can I borrow your pictures which show the problem quite clearly.

Ben Caswell.

Hello Ben

                  Yes of course you can do you want higher resolution ones? if so pm me and I will send them to you

Roger

[rlubikey]

So, about 5 years ago I had to replace the halfshaft on Red Spit as there was a "Squeak" when I took up drive. It turned out the hub nut was not tight - though it had been tightened up on assembly, presumably to 120ft-lbs. Consequently the hub itself was moving on the shaft. I realised I still had the shaft, and here it is.

As you can see, the Woodruff slot was shot - fortunately at the outboard end. However, it's interesting to see that the yoke has a roll-pin. You can just see the yoke has been struck in a cross at each end to stop the pin from exiting.

So then I looked at what's on the car now, and they're both roll-pins holding the yoke as above. Seems that's what the pattern part boys have been fitting for at least 7 years.

Cheers, Richard

[Pete Lewis]

my old parts list only shows it as an assy made by BRD  so cant detail the pin 

Pete

[Nick Jones]

Richard

That's another fairly scary looking failure.

On the pin, can you remember if it was a "slotted spring pin" which seems to be what Roger found, or one of the spiral wound ones

https://www.spirol.com/library/sub_catalogs/cldp-What_Differentiates_Coiled_Pins_us.pdf

One of the heavier duty spiral wound ones might not be totally daft......

Nick

[Ben Caswell]

3 hours ago, rogerguzzi said:

Hello Ben

                  Yes of course you can do you want higher resolution ones? if so pm me and I will send them to you

Roger

Thanks Roger, Those pics are really clear so will do the trick just missed my last deadline so will be a little while now.

Thanks again

Ben

[rlubikey]

Nick, I'll have a look tomorrow - see if I can tap it out or something.

[rogerguzzi]

21 minutes ago, Ben Caswell said:

Thanks Roger, Those pics are really clear so will do the trick just missed my last deadline so will be a little while now.

Thanks again

Ben

Hello Ben

                The file size may not be big enough for printing it requires bigger files than screens so if you want them just pm me

Roger

[rogerguzzi]

1 hour ago, rlubikey said:

So, about 5 years ago I had to replace the halfshaft on Red Spit as there was a "Squeak" when I took up drive. It turned out the hub nut was not tight - though it had been tightened up on assembly, presumably to 120ft-lbs. Consequently the hub itself was moving on the shaft. I realised I still had the shaft, and here it is.

As you can see, the Woodruff slot was shot - fortunately at the outboard end. However, it's interesting to see that the yoke has a roll-pin. You can just see the yoke has been struck in a cross at each end to stop the pin from exiting.

So then I looked at what's on the car now, and they're both roll-pins holding the yoke as above. Seems that's what the pattern part boys have been fitting for at least 7 years.

Cheers, Richard

Hello All

                 That shaft looks different the spines look smaller than the shaft mine are bigger but not cross staked neither is the OE shaft

Roger

ps perhaps there are different ones?

[rlubikey]

15 hours ago, rogerguzzi said:

Hello All

                 That shaft looks different the spines look smaller than the shaft mine are bigger but not cross staked neither is the OE shaft

Roger

ps perhaps there are different ones?

 

 

Hi Roger. My broken shaft has a small shoulder - approx. 0.5mm - and then the splines which have peaks *almost* the same as the main shaft diameter. There are 24 splines. The main section of shaft is 26.5mm diameter, spline peaks 26.3mm and neck 25.6mm. I would estimate the splines are about 1mm deep (peak to valley). Any more details, just ask.

16 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Richard

That's another fairly scary looking failure.

On the pin, can you remember if it was a "slotted spring pin" which seems to be what Roger found, or one of the spiral wound ones

https://www.spirol.com/library/sub_catalogs/cldp-What_Differentiates_Coiled_Pins_us.pdf

One of the heavier duty spiral wound ones might not be totally daft......

Nick

Hi Nick. The broken shaft is deffo. fitted with a Slotted Spring Pin. The ones on the car seem to be the same, though not as easy to inspect.

I just spoke to David Picton, who says they made & supplied by ESP Automotive in Coventry. He believed that the yokes were heat-shrunk on to the splines - in these ones at least - and therefore shouldn't move at all. He said ESP was started by an ex-Triumph chap and thought that, to his knowledge, these were the best pattern parts available and supplied by a number of more familiar names in the trade..

Cheers, Richard

[rogerguzzi]

2 hours ago, rlubikey said:

Hi Roger. My broken shaft has a small shoulder - approx. 0.5mm - and then the splines which have peaks *almost* the same as the main shaft diameter. There are 24 splines. The main section of shaft is 26.5mm diameter, spline peaks 26.3mm and neck 25.6mm. I would estimate the splines are about 1mm deep (peak to valley). Any more details, just ask.

Hello Richard

                       Well that definetly makes them a different make!

Mine measure 26.5mm main shaft but OE one is still unmachined there are 25 splines on new one and 24 on OE one

New spline diameter 28.5 mm OE one 26.3mm

The recess in front of the splines on new one is 25.3mm dia

So we can probably assume yours were made to a good standard and mine were made in the chocolate factory!

I am thinking of going to Manners or Fitchets and looking at them before buying

Roger

 

[rlubikey]

Roger, I'll check the number of splines - I quickly counted 12 around from pin hole to hole and doubled. I'll report back tomorrow.

Other than the number of splines (and the roll pin) mine seem *almost* the same as OE!

Cheers, Richard