Dolly 1850 single rail gearbox in to mk3 GT6

[Chris A]

26 minutes ago, dougbgt6 said:

 normally I put cherry Kirsch in the fondue, but I suppose you could...……………………..

Doug

I would just put it in a glass and drink it why waste all that effort someone went too. A bit like buying 0% beer 😨

[Graham C]

Hello 

No progress to date due to other family commitments, however I am hoping to star next month and will feed back information.

Clive if you have any problems with bell housing, I have a single rail 1850 wheelhouse that will be surplus to requirements soon.

Graham

 

[Clive]

Thanks Graham, but the job is on tomorrow!

I will take some pics as the job will replicate what you will need to do.

[Nick Jones]

4 hours ago, clive said:

As we have not been able to source for sensible money a single rail bellhousing,

Clive, I have two 1850 single rail bellhousings on my garage floor.  Both are ugly, one extremely so, but the better one may be saveable if you want it?

Nick

[Clive]

Nick, this is just typical... I have been looking but not in the right place. But as above, the gearbox swap is happening tomorrow, and the bellhousing mod will be happening hopefully mid-morning.

(In fact I am hoping the chap can get on with much of it single handed. I have spitfire jobs to get on with...)

But thank you both for the offers, lesson learnt. Must ask on the forums!

[Colin Lindsay]

On 27/02/2019 at 19:17, dougbgt6 said:

I recommend fondue, my kit has a meths burner and smells wonderful, normally I put cherry Kirsch in the fondue, but I suppose you could...……………………..

Doug

I love the smell of Waxoyl in the mornings, I usually liquidise it over a gas ring before it goes into the gun and into the chassis; someday it's going to blow up but until then, wonder if flavouring it with something nice would affect the wax treatment?

[Peter Truman]

Re modifying the Vitesse/GT6 Bellhousing when upgrading my daughters Mk2 Spit to a J Type OD I went the other way and put the Spit 1500 Single Rail Internals into a GT6 3 Rail Gearbox casing. Why because I had several 3 Rail Herald/Spit Alloy Bellhousings 1 early Herald thin walled type (see photo) and 2 later copies of the standard cast iron unit ie thicker construction.

This conversion also had issues (reverse lever mods, extra washer in selector rod to stop selecting two gears simultaneously) as related in a the Courier mag last year  see Spit1/2/3 Suzie Singleton column, as a teaser see attached photo of completed job! Note the extra 1in annulus spacer between the OD Adapter and OD as the 3 rail box (mainshaft) is 1in longer!

Under the bench I have a Dolly 1850 Single Rail with J Type OD to convert for my Mk2 Vitesse, & I'm uncertain of which way to go , the 3 Rail using the std Vit/GT6 Bellhousing as per the Spit conversion above or use the Single Rail & modify the GT6 Bellhousing.

I'll be extremely interested to see the photo's of the Bellhousing or Single Rail selector shaft capping?

Regards

Peter T

[johny]

Hi Peter, interesting modification, where did you get the aluminium spacer made? I suppose the propshaft will also have to be changed/modified to accommodate the extra gearbox length.... 

[Clive]

8 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

Re modifying the Vitesse/GT6 Bellhousing when upgrading my daughters Mk2 Spit to a J Type OD I went the other way and put the Spit 1500 Single Rail Internals into a GT6 3 Rail Gearbox casing. Why because I had several 3 Rail Herald/Spit Alloy Bellhousings 1 early Herald thin walled type (see photo) and 2 later copies of the standard cast iron unit ie thicker construction.

This conversion also had issues (reverse lever mods, extra washer in selector rod to stop selecting two gears simultaneously) as related in a the Courier mag last year  see Spit1/2/3 Suzie Singleton column, as a teaser see attached photo of completed job! Note the extra 1in annulus spacer between the OD Adapter and OD as the 3 rail box (mainshaft) is 1in longer!

Under the bench I have a Dolly 1850 Single Rail with J Type OD to convert for my Mk2 Vitesse, & I'm uncertain of which way to go , the 3 Rail using the std Vit/GT6 Bellhousing as per the Spit conversion above or use the Single Rail & modify the GT6 Bellhousing.

I'll be extremely interested to see the photo's of the Bellhousing or Single Rail selector shaft capping?

Regards

Peter T

Peter, I am not sure I understand the need for the extra spacer. I have seen a few boxes built with single rail internals into a 3 rail case, but they have not had an additional spacer. Though I know the OD adaptor plates on the single rail is longer. SO... is that a single rail adaptor plate plus extra, or 3 rail "thin" adaptor (d type? J type) 

Re the capping, the bellhousing taken off the 3 rail dolomite box has the casting and is drilled for the  single rail already. However, it does not retain the little selector shaft and has a approx 1mm gap around the main gear selector shaft between the box face and bellhousing. So  a sort of inbetween design, they had added one part but not sorted the other. Most odd. I am making a small plate to fill the gap, and will use some sealant plus make a small extra gasket. But not exactly a stressed area.

I will take a pic of the "cap" though it was going to be trimmed to size once the bellhousing was off. 

[Peter Truman]

The adapter plate I used was a 3 Rail Mk4 J Type,  Part No.313085 around 1.625in wide. I originally brought it to convert my Vitesse Mk2 to a J type overdrive using a Mike Papworth J type mainshaft TKC899 (small end to input shaft). How did I determine a 1in spacer, after assembling the single rail J Type OD internals into the Mk3 GT6 case with the adapter plate attached I couldn't get the OD to align and drop down mating with the gearbox main case there was always a 1in gap with the splines aligned! Also Canley advise the Spit Mk 4 with OD (J) has a propshaft of 38in verses the Spit 1500 with single rail box and J type OD of 37in.  So a 1in spacer looked right when fitted the OD just slid down when the splines were aligned and everything rotated correctly.

The single rail 1850 J type OD gearbox I have that I'm considering for the Vitesse Mk2 has a 2.125in wide adapter plate Part No. RKC634.

With the Vitesse I'm be-twixt & between whether to convert my existing & original 3 Rail gearbox using adapter Plate 313085 , J Type mainshaft TKC899, & original bellhousing OR to use the stronger 1850 Single Rail J Type OD box & modify the bellhousing to take the single selector shaft. I must admit I prefer the 3 rail Box it looks more conventional.

If I upgrade my existing 3 Rail Gearbox with a J Type OD I have a new Propshaft specially made for that set up that I purchased from Rimmers a couple of years ago. but I'll need another Spit Mk4 style J Type Adapter Plate 313085, unless the 3 Rail D Type Adapter Plate Part No. 305137 I have can be modified it's also 1.625in wide. More research reqd!!!

The 1in spacer was made by a local machine shop here in Melbourne "Hardeman Bros" Industrial Gears, its a reasonably big concern & the principal lived a few doors up from us, it was cut from a piece of 1in Al plate. Another Part of the business makes MG B Splined wire wheel hubs, an overdrive conversion (US copy of the Laycock OD) for the Toyota Landcruiser, and a Toyota 4 pot Alloy caliper to convert/upgrade a Nissan Patrol.

Regards

Peter T

 

 

[johny]

I dont think youll need a 'special' prop for the Vitesse cos with mainshaft TKC899 3 rail box is the same length with either D or J type OD unless of course yours didnt originally have OD in which case you just need a new standard OD prop. If you do this youll have the 3 rail OD box that was used in the early Dolomite 1850 which many people like for its stronger J type but Im afraid I would also like to have the larger mainshaft tip needle bearing design which of course, as standard, is only used in single rail. 

Ive been looking at the possibility of a single rail into a Vitesse and apart from the bell housing mod, 1" longer length and clutch plate change I would be concerned about the gear lever position and how well the original plastic gearbox cover is going to fit.

How about putting the single rail internals in the 3 rail but with TKC899HD modified mainshaft (for bigger tip bearing) and J type with thin adaptor? Then you only have to have a change of clutch plate.....

[Graham C]

Hello

I have now started work on this project, I will not cover the remove of the gerbox as this is detailed elsewhere, the differences in the single and three rail are shown below

As you can see the single rail LHS is taller and you have the selector shaft protruding through, inaddition covered by the red gasket to the RHS of the selector shaft is another shaft.

As discussed previously the selector shaft impacts the GT6 bell housing which requires altering.

You can see the selector shaft to the side of the clutch lever opening.

Above shows the hole which was drilled and filed out, as you can see the selector shaft comes out close to the clutch lever which will need adjusting.

I had an aluminium tube cut and welded in the hole, this tube was closed off with a blanking plate which was welded onto the tube.

This is the tube being held in place.

The tube was tack welded into position while the bell housing was attached to the gearbox and later fully welded up when seperated.

Inaddition a small plate was welded next to the tube to hold the other shaft. I used super steel to fill any gaps between the tube and the bell housing to ensure a good seal.

As I pointed out earlier the clutch lever had to be alter this was a simple task of taking a bit out of the side and re curving the edge back and welding.

As well as that I noticed that the clutch lever was catching the top flange of the gearbox which I decided to cut off to ensure the clutch could move through its ful range of movement. I thought it was better now than when in the car.

You will noticed I also removed part of theside of the lever.

The next move is to re fit the gearbox, my intial thought was to use a 1500 gearbox support plate however due to the chassis (limitations in surface to bolt the support plate) and the extra length of the overdrive this is not possible. I am thinking of having a plate made to enable the plate to be bolted in positon but extended between the chassis rails to support the gearbox.

I will provide updates as I progress.

 

Hopefullybthe pictures will reamin in position.

Graham

[Peter Truman]

Thanks that info is terrific and the photo's are worth a thousand words. Isn't always the way one solution begats another problem, ie the clutch lever mods, & covering the second shaft.

How are you going to seal the interface between the new selector tube and the gearbox face, or are you relying on a good pressure fit against the gearbox to bellhousing gasket.

I also like Johny's solution with the 3 rail conversion using the TKC899HD mainshaft wish I'd thought of that eons ago when I started my daughters Spit J type upgrade.

Winters coming here in Aus so a good time to sort the Vitesse J type option out.

If using a 3 rail case (Vit/GT6) watch out that the case isn't cracked thro the top of the output bearing, I gather its not unusual. I strengthened a damaged one I used by machining outa 1in long section over the crack and installing a bit of 1in long sq bar machined down to the gearbox thickness and tapped back into the gearbox case each side of the crack, also using copious amount of Permatex and ensuring the top face was level for a good seal.

Peter T

[Pete Lewis]

Mike Papworth does a input shaft modified to suit the 3 rail with  18mm spigot  mainshaft  and std 6 cyl  clutch splines

Used this on my Vit6 some years back. Due to the 1/2" spigot failures,   

Pete

 

[rlubikey]

Terrific pictures and description Graham, thank you.

Why is it that the selector shaft needs casing/boxing in like that? There's an O-ring seal both ends on the selector cover, right?

Cheers, Richard

[Graham C]

Hello Richard

In my research over numerous years people have advise you need a tube, obviously the shaft passes through open space so can collect contamination which may cause problems. I capped the tube for the same reason as it was close to the clutch lever slot in the bell housing. Basically that was an easy weld for the workshop I would rather do it now rather than latter. I have looked at the Spit 1500 parts manual and it does not show any o rings, I assume that because it would be located above the oil level and only affected by splashed oil.

In addition the Dolly and also the Spit 1500 bell housing has the selector shaft fully recess close off from the clutch area.

I intend posting more pictures as and when I progress. I had hoped to fit the gearbox last weekend but I had ordered the wrong clutch - I do not know why possible confusion on my part of the web site. 

Hopefully the picture will help others

I have to admit that the gearbox and overdrive are untested, purchased from e bay approx 10 years ago when I had this idea. So it will be interesting driving the car for the first time. No major noises when turned by hand, can select all gears and the magnet did not have any bits of metal. So fingers crossed for that part.

Graham

[Graham C]

Just some information I forgot to post is the the selector shaft extends 32mm out of the gearbox and the length of the splinters pin at the end is 18mm so I used a tube with a thick wall tube approx  3mm with an internal bore of approx 20/21 mm. The gentleman doing the welding did have to bore out the tube very slightly due to it being slightly off centre. Advantage of aluminium, the split pin scored the tube when we tested it and a quick whizz with a drill and a very small flap wheel.

Graham

[rlubikey]

The penny's just dropped - this is a Single rail gearbox.

Cheers, Richard

[johny]

That's the title of the thread😂

[Graham C]

Actually it was a good question as I had thought long and hard about capping the tube. Above was simply my thought process,

Hopefully this article will help others. 

Graham

[Graham C]

Hello

Further progress has been made in that I have design a support plate to hold the gearbox/overdrive in place to the chassis. See pictures below

 

Basically I had originally thought I could just install a Spitfire 1500 gb mounting plate but it soon became obvious that the gb sat further back and the chassis rails would not allow the plate to slide/fit further back. So I decided to extend the plate as shown, the extension is 2 mm thick steel with the edges folded up (12 mm fold) to provide extra strength, in addition I had a reinforcing plate attached underneath it to provide further support this was in 4 mm steel. the width of the extension is 98 mm to fit between the rails, and 70 mm long. this is in addition to the extension plate being fully welded to the 1500 plate.

Upon fitting it I found that the od filter was sitting on the 1500 plate fold so I had to cut and bend that flat that part of the plate flat as can be seen from the picture of the painted plate. The advantage of using the 1500 plate is that two of the original holes line up with the chassis bolt hols so that helps with alignment and getting the gearbox central.

I had to drill 2 extra holes in the plate and chassis so the plate is held by 4 bolts near the pivot point, further 2 holes for the od mounting bracket (taken from the Spitfire 1500). Measurement taken to ensure things were central.

The next job was shortening the prop shaft as said below the GT6 shorten prop shaft is too long, I measure the gap between the diff and gb flanges as 880 mm, so had the shaft shorten/balanced so the slide was in the middle of its movement allowing for a bit of movement either way. Just over an 25 mm was taken off, as I think Colin suggested.The shortening /balancing came to £84 and was turned around in a day. (Wilson Drive shaft, Nottingham, they did seem use to these odd jobs so were very helpful.)

Fitting of the gb was as normal, I believe the part of the gearbox I ground off to allow extra movement of the clutch lever may not have been required, better to have done this out of the car rather once installed if it was required.

The fitting of the prop shaft and completion was done yesterday but i have not driven the car yet to see if it all works OK as the battery was flat.

Annoyingly I had to take the exhaust off to get access to the bolts securing the mounting plate and snapped an exhaust stud, so need to sort that out. Have applied heat but still will not move.

I have not driven the car yet as the battery was flat.

One problem I can see with the design of the plate is that od filter housing is covered by the plate and it means the mounting plate needs removing to service the od filter.

May redesign the mounting plate another day.

Graham

 

[johny]

Looks like the end of the saga is in sight but I dont think I'll be going down the same route anytime soon! Going back to the question of the tube I think you did the right thing sealing it as Im not sure the gearlever rod has o-rings as was suggested. It looks like it just runs through holes in the ends of the main casing with no form of sealing.....

[Graham C]

Latest update, following the fitting of the gearbox I took the car out down my street last week to test the box. Good news everything worked with the gearbox. Could not  try the OD as it was not wired up. Today thanks to Peter Lewis who supplied an OD gear lever I wired the up the OD, again it worked OK. 

So a £250 gearbox from e bay approx. 7 years ago, where the gentleman said it was sound has been proven right. 

Thank you all for your help, information and interest in this project. Hopefully the information I have posted Willl help someone else.

Graham

[johny]

well its been a bit of a marathon but at least now you can relax in the knowledge that youve got the best possible standard Trumph box fitted but, of course, in none of the changes did Triumph ever address the problem of that layshaft☹️

[johny]

Hi Graham, just to drag this old thread up again, as now that hopefully youve got some miles on the new gearbox, I wondered how its worked out? How do you rate the gearchange of the single rail with the original 3?