That was a year that was..

[dougbgt6]

And back to "When shall we three meet again?" 

db

[68vitesse]

52 minutes ago, dougbgt6 said:

And back to "When shall we three meet again?" 

db

Doesn't that depend on the coven19 restrictions.

Regards

Paul

[Bfg]

On 18/03/2021 at 21:26, Bfg said:

Thursday :  Clutch-fork pin replaced, 3/16" dia roll pin fitted and lock-wired in, the clutch itself replaced, and successfully all back together again (save the interior) - I drove home in the car at six this evening ...all THANKS to invaluable advice from the learned gentlemen of this and the TR Forum,  and to Colin ..the AO of our TSSC group, who came to a very timely rescue with letting have his own new clutch fork pin.   

After months of activity, and then a 9 hour day today of clambering over, under and contorted inside - I'm knackered !!   ..so I'll report with photos on the forum over the weekend. Perhaps my thumb will have stopped throbbing by then ! ?

Pete

Ok, just for fun I'll share what I've been up to this week.

.

Re-torquing the cylinder head / gasket leak into the coolant - mostly worked.   I'll probably try again as it's by far the easier option.

This past Tuesday my best laid plans... to get all the necessary clutch release fork parts in stock ready for the car to go into the spanner-man, first thing on on Thursday - faced a hiccup ..  

Our parts order arrived from Moss and again it was only - mostly  there, as part #   158777X    Pin C/Fork Securing      Ord Qty: 1     Del Qty: 0 (nil) 

.                                                                                          ..with a new fork release cross shaft -  Fed Ex Next day delivery      £8.95+ VAT

So despite express delivery, the essential item of that clutch release fork pin was missing. And as I didn't get to open the parcel until (after 6pm) Tuesday evening ..there was no time to order and get one delivered from another supplier.  

I put out an appeal for one through the TR forum and through my local TSSC group - to ask if anyone happened to have one in their box of bits.?

Incredibly Colin, the AO our local TSSC group, not only happened to have a new one (in readiness of his rebuilding a gearbox), but was also passing by Ipswich on the A14 the following morning  ..so I was saved.!   BIG THANKS to Colin. 

I was still awaiting a parcel from another supplier, with new bearings, gearbox oil and other parts in, which I hoped would arrive that same Wednesday.  As I said in the previous post ..things became very much more complicated because a very kind and well intention friend helped.   As it happened I never did get the gearbox oil I had ordered nor a replacement speedo cable either.  But at least they are jobs which can be done at another time.

- - -

On Tuesday,  I also needed to drive across to near Wattisham Airfield, as a friend Andrew had in his loft my steel gearbox cover from a TR3.  I bought and collected this on the way back from the Duxford Triumph meeting a couple of years ago, intending to fit it into Chance  ..the American project TR4 I was trying to buy.  I've been advised that the cover won't fit a TR4A without very extensive modification but, as the gearbox was coming out anyway, now was opportune to see how practical it might be to do such changes.   I'll report back on that later..

While over there, Andrew was keen to see what I'd bought in Katie,  and so in observance of social distancing (he was on one side of the car and I the other) I took a moment to check the water level in the radiator again.  Unfortunately it had gone down.  Not nearly as much as was being pushed out before I re-torqued the head ..but still things are ominously not right.  I then also notice fuel pouring out  of the forward carburettor's float bowl.  Fuel was on top of the cap but also running down (when the engine was running) onto the wiring loom and puddling in the bottom corner of the inner wing.  

Standing there, in the fine drizzling rain, I cut 3/4" off the end off each of the two pipes & then tried fitting smaller (better fitting) jubilee clips, and then also replaced a length of pipe, each of which made little improvements - but when flexed the petrol would pour out again.  I suspected a cracked cap, because the petrol was also on top of the cap, whereas Andrew suspected the gasket.  Thankfully he was correct. The gasket must, I think, have been a home-made piece of thin card, which was mostly missing and otherwise turned to mush in my fingers.  Again good fortune was with me, insomuch as Andrew has seven classic cars including a Mk3 GT6 and 1500 Spitfire, three Jags, an old Mercedes estate, and a Rover P5. And then he has also a few classic bikes ..all projects !  The 1500 Spitfire kindly donated a correct float bowl gasket ..which successful sorted out Katie's petrol piddling issue.

I didn't investigate why the petrol level should be so high in bowl, nor the condition of the other float bowl's gasket. They'll be jobs for another (hopefully drier) day closer to home.       

- - -

Wednesday  was very wet in the morning but dried up in the afternoon, that was a good thing because I needed to get items of the interior removed. . .

^ Passenger seat, carpets, H frame (support brace to the dashboard) removed. One of the two top bolts "securing" the H-frame were very loose, undone only a turn to remove the nut, and the other had fallen out and was under the carpet. Clearly scuttle shake was doing its damnedest to break free !

Thereafter the tunnel-carpets and felt, and all the bolts holding the fibreglass cover down were removed, so now cover is now loose and ready to lift out.  There were no fastenings into the bulkhead itself.  For reference, working outside in the yard, it took me 50 minutes to get thus far, but that did include me taking lots of reference photos, as it's been 35 years since I last did this.

Pete.

[Bfg]

Thursday ; clutch out and fix it !

starting soon after 9am ;

^ 9.47am ; Having released the gearbox cover the evening before, it was just a few seconds to remove it completely, and then the gear change lever, the wires to the overdrive switches & solenoid, and to remove the solenoid itself so that it didn't get damaged.

The speedo cable and its 90-deg drive, the earthing wires from under the gear-change top cover nuts, and the prop / drive shaft were also released, and the handbrake lever (on the tunnel) was removed ..so the gearbox may be drawn up and backwards from the engine.  And the bell-housing bolts were removed

^ 10:05am ; ready to lift into the air to remove the bottom bell housing bolts, the clutch slave cylinder, and two big nuts under the gearbox rubber mount.  

^ 10:37 ;  This was the amount of free play in the lever.

All ready to remove the gearbox but no experience in how to do it.  My understanding was that the workshop had a gearbox hoist, whereas they only had a gearbox stand to support the gearbox as it is dropped  out.  But this gearbox was to come out from inside the car but the dashboard is in the way to get a hoist in. 

The back-end of the engine is to be supported on a jack (block of timber to protect the sump) and so we tried to get a second trolley jack under the bell housing to roll it back on.  That didn't work because Tommy had removed the front wheels and the car was hanging on the two poster lift, so that and its arms were in the way.  And off the two poster would have been too low to get his trolley jack under.  I went off to my storage container, to get my small trolley jack.. by which time Steve (who has the workshop) had come up with the good idea to use a longer piece of wood between the first trolley jack and the sump.  When pulled back, the bellhousing would then drop onto that. . .

^ I was more concerned about getting the shaft & its spline back in again and so added to his idea by loosely packing other pieces of plywood on top of that first piece (now sandwiched tight under the sump).  And those were of the right thickness (about 20mm higher) to support the bellhousing itself (so no dropping down - which also meant no lifting up when it's refitted). . .

With the trolley lifting the back end of the engine a little and me lifting n' pulling the back end of the gearbox (mounting studs out of the cross member's holes) Tommy was then able to slide the gearbox back. A little more tilt, lift and twist cleared the gearbox's prop-shaft flange over the rear part of the tunnel.  An 18" length of 4"x 1-1/2" timber was then placed across the floor (spanning the hole) and the gearbox could then be swiveled around and slid further back from under the heater matrix and dashboard on that.  It worked well.

12.03pm ; gearbox out ..three hours. I would have thought a competent workshop, familiar with TR's, with suitable equipment and the right sized spanners to hand, might have done this in half the time.  Nevertheless it was out, with fingers and car otherwise intact, and so the task could be got on with. 

^ unfortunately the clutch was shot, not just the friction plate but the diaphragm fingers were well worn too.  I had a new one in stock but had hoped not to need it because my spare engine's lightened flywheel & crankshaft had been balanced with it.. Nevertheless it was needed and so swapped out.

^ so very close to being down to the rivets.

^ I suspect the oil wash is from the engine's crankshaft rear scroll. the thrust bearing of course whirs when spun.  By the stiffening web, just seen below the middle of the cross shaft and the clutch release fork, you might notice the shiny end of a pin, quietly hiding in the corner there. 

^ 1. the sheared-off taper pin, which should be twice as long as you see.  With that part of the pin removed, the clutch release fork still would pull not slide down and off the cross shaft.  So the shaft was quickly cut through, close to the fork which allowed its end to pull out of the bell housing.  2. I later spotted the clutch release fork was cracked close to where the pin screws in. I was using a steel drift only against the fork and so I don't think I broke it, but anyway it was now scrap.

Thankfully I had been well advised to buy both a new shaft and a new fork.  3. the little pin found in the bottom of the bell housing was from where that clutch release fork n' shaft had been drilled at 90-degrees ..but it had fallen out !  

 

^ The cross-shaft bushes were replaced ..you wouldn't believe how loose the shaft was in the old very-narrow bushes. Indeed, when I first looked at it, I thought the bushes were missing altogether (the shaft itself was worn).  I only needed two of the four replacement bushes I had bought, as these are about 2-1/2 times the width of the original ones. I fitted the old ones too, as they weren't actually in bad shape. I suspect they had been replaced when the car was restored 22 years ago (38k miles ago) but perhaps the rebuilder just didn't have another shaft at hand.   

^ 15:17pm : with the new taper pin fitted, the new clutch release fork and shaft were drilled at 90 degrees for a 3/16" x 1-1/2" roll-pin.  The shaft is solid steel so it took a little while.  Its pilot hole was done with a brand new 3.5mm drill bit and cutting fluid, and then the 3/16" drill bit finished the hole to the correct size.   By the way., the shaft's hole through the release fork needed honing before the shaft would go through. 

^ The thrust bearing's bush was pressed out of the old and into the new. The inside of this was cleaned out and it, and the gearbox shaft, liberally smeared with molybdenum disulfide grease.  During final assembly, this bearing assembly has to be fitted before the taper pin is fitted into the release fork.

 

^ the roll pin was cut to length ..leaving about 1mm poking out of either side, before being wired in place, together with the standard taper pin.  It's galvanised wire.  The fitted assembly was then lightly smeared with grease to help dispel moisture (rust).   

. . to be continued ..after a cup of coffee.

Pete

[Bfg]

Thursday continued . .

^ the new clutch fitted.  It's not that I'm a bit of a pack-rat but I still had the clutch-centering tool I'd bought back in the mid-'90s when I last worked on a TR4.! 

^ 16:07pm ; The all new clutch release mechanism together and ready to fit, with the Borg & Beck red grease on the gearbox splines. The thrust bearing shaft's new plain bushes were fitted flush to the outside of bell-housing case, and the old bushes refitted (with bearing Loctite) inside of those.

25 minutes later . . .

^ 16.32pm ; the refitting of the gearbox was the reverse of it coming out, save the jack under the engine with its gearbox support boards was adjusted to get the tilt alignment right, as the gearbox rubber mount's studs cleared the chassis cross brace. Tommy adjusted the height as I eased the gearbox forward.  

I might add that, as we were swiveling the gearbox in on the timber spanning the hole in the floor, I had one hand on the bell housing. The weight of the overdrive suddenly toppled that end down and the bellhousing pivoted upwards - my thumb nail was caught between the bellhousing and the underside corner of the heater box.  Neither of those were damaged nor did they shout out !  And neither of those now have a very bruised black thumb nail as a reminder of this auspicious happening.. the gearbox being back in situ.

 

^ The race was then on to get the bell-housing holes aligned and its bolts in, and to get everything reassembled enough to drive the car home that evening.

^ The bottom bell housing bolts of course needed refitting, and while down under - the clutch hydraulic pipe had to be disconnected ..so the slave cylinder's mounting plate could then be fitted onto the other side - where it should be (..the slave cylinder should be on the engine side of that plate).  'Interestingly' the clutch master cylinder's cap was seized on and the reservoir was all but empty ..it wouldn't have worked for very much longer without sucking air rather than the last dregs of its filthy black brake fluid.  That is now flushed through.

The clutch pedal was so light that (thinking there was air in the pipe) I suggested to Tommy that it wouldn't pump up.!    

My last photo was timed at 17:28pm, so the task took the two of us 8 hrs 28 minutes.  I wonder how long it would have taken a commercial garage or even an experienced crew.  The gearbox cover and interior / passenger seat etc weren't refitted, because they'd only have to come out again the following day, but my mistake was to not drop the cover in place ..to close the hole, as I drove home.  It was my mistake, made in haste because Tommy needed to rush off to catch a train, but I was thinking that the handbrake lever had to be removed again to get the g/box cover on. Of course that was only necessary to get the gearbox far enough back over the rear part of the tunnel. 

It appears my not fitting it has cost me a Samsung Galaxy phone, which has just disappeared ..I guess having skated across the floor and down through the hole in the floor !      Stupid boy Pike.

Oddly, after the 2-1/2 mile drive home, I pulled into this apartment block's car park, and not having the cover over the gearbox showed a flickering of orange flame from under the bonnet.  I swung straight into the nearest parking spot opened the bonnet to be faced with what appeared to be a bonfire !  Tommy had been refilling the clutch cylinder and, while he was changing to leave, I had refitted the cap and closed the bonnet.  I hadn't spotted the small silver bottle of brake fluid sitting amidst the silver manifolds behind the carburettors.  The heat of the exhaust manifold had melted a small hole the plastic bottle and its brake fluid had ignited. I'm a big chap and, being duly motivated ( ! )  ..I managed to blow the flames out.  Ironically, had the gearbox cover had been in place &/or had it still been be daylight - I wouldn't have spotted those flames or their smoke immediately. 

Being unfamiliar with another person's way of working + my haste to get the car done and out of the workshop that evening - very nearly caused a catastrophe.  Again I can be truly thankful that just two days earlier I had spotted and fixed petrol leak from the carburettor - Wow ! 

^ photo taken the following morning.

Even though I'd not have put the bottle of fluid there, Tommy was simply keeping the bottle handy as he topped the fluid up, and not wanting to place a bottle of fluid down on the bulkhead's paint ..Fair enough, but it's still something that good workshop practices would easily avoid. 

I hope it is a lesson we all might learn from ..

                                                          Calamity Pete !

 

[Pete Lewis]

surprising but brake fluid causes a lot of fires   it will as you found ignites on a hot manifold 

where as petrol just doesnt 

lucky escape  all round   sorry about the thumb  ouch 

Pete

[Bfg]

17 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

surprising but brake fluid causes a lot of fires   it will as you found ignites on a hot manifold 

where as petrol just doesnt 

lucky escape  all round   sorry about the thumb  ouch 

Pete

Indeed . . . < https://trid.trb.org/view/294408 > which makes an interesting point about it spilling in an accident. 

ouch indeed.. Thanks,

Pete

[Bfg]

Friday :

The clutch is now so light that I first wanted to check that it was properly bled (after being used for two short journeys) and to fit return spring alongside the slave cylinder.  The was just a little air in the pipe (it's a nuisance having a bigger bore pipe when bleeding). Now the feel of clutch wouldn't feel out of place in a small modern car. 

- - -

I also wanted to check out the differences in gearbox covers and to see if we might get a steel TR3 one to fit in place of the TR4's fibreglass cover.  It wasn't intended to be, but this also gave me the opportunity to see how effectively and neatly Tommy worked with tin bashing, as I have much bigger changes in mind for the car . . .

^ sorry., I should have taken a little more time to align the two up. Their lengths are in fact very similar indeed, as are their footprint.

As you can see the TR3 cover (right) has an upturned flange at the front ..to bolt through the bulkhead, whereas the TR4 - TR6's  g/box cover sits on a flange coming back from the bulkhead.  The TR3 cover is noticeably fuller / rounder over the gearbox. This must have been altered because the later cars have a dashboard-support H-frame, and so their covers are slimmed down just forward of the gear-change hole, for the H-frame to straddle over it. 

The first thing I wanted was to split the TR3 cover into two parts. . .

^ I proposed a line about 3" further forward of the gear-change hole for the split, as this would allow easy access and if necessary replacement of the overdrive's solenoid without needing to disturb the forward part of the cover.  The split is also just forward of where the H-frame sits and so because I wanted to retain that (at least for the time being) I hoped reworking their (split) edges would be easier. 

The height from the front edge of gear-change hole to the floor was much the same between the two covers (1/4" difference), but the height over the rear part of the prop-shaft tunnel was an inch too high on the TR3 cover. That was easily sorted by simply re-bending its bottom flange ; 1" difference at the back tapering to no change in height at the front corner.

Meanwhile inside the car. . 

There's certainly plenty of space under there.  The solenoid switches and their wiring connections stick up but not that much. . .

^  although the footprint to the floor is very much the same (and many of the holes line up), the width around the top is ..let's say 'generous'.  Personally I would prefer more spacious foot wells.

^ even the steel cover's fit against the bulkhead was very good.

In short ;  it all looked very promising and to my eyes easy enough to modify to fit very well.

However... Tommy seemed to be struggling with simply getting on with the job. It was his job and so I tried to only suggest client instructions to what was wanted.  In truth I was enthusiastic by the fit and I just wanted to get on and do it. His rolling & smoking cigarettes while he was thinking was getting to me ..as indeed was rap "music" out of the transistor, having tea and then toasted sandwiches, and his not being able to find tools.  There are no solid work-benches, and two lightweight stands are covered with tools and drill bits ..from however long ago.  So anything is done by scampering around on the floor or otherwise hammered over a steel (horse) trestle at the other end of the workshop

According to the photos, we started looking at these g/box covers at 11:40am. And the photo taken ..where the cover was simply cut into two, was taken at 13:12pm ..an hour and a half later !  ..by 16:00 we had packed up.

The cuts (as darts) he'd made to bring the small rear part of the cover lower & narrower (to fit under the H-frame) was let's say "not as I would have done it".  Very ugly indeed, horribly hammered, and with just a few holding-tacks of weld to show for 4-1/4 hours work. The front / larger part of the cover hadn't yet been touched.

If I were to let it continue, then it would be a very expensive job (for what I was getting).  Perhaps it's a sad reflection on me, but I am not even able to watch someone work like this.  After doing things my own way, and just getting on with the job on my own for the past 40 years - I was getting more and more wound up.  I didn't say anything but.. I'll not continue with him doing this. 

So Friday, was such a disappointment ..when the TR3 cover itself offered such promise - with its fit and for being an easy mod. to simply slim down.   I now have to consider how best I might proceed on my own ..with no power and little space in my storage container. In the meantime I have overheating and water loss issues to worry about.

Pete

 

[Colin Lindsay]

3 hours ago, Bfg said:

If I were to let it continue, then it would be a very expensive job (for what I was getting).  Perhaps it's a sad reflection on me, but I am not even able to watch someone work like this.  After doing things my own way, and just getting on with the job on my own for the past 40 years - I was getting more and more wound up.  I didn't say anything but.. I'll not continue with him doing this. 

I know how you feel. I had a disagreement with a friend a month or two ago over an ill-fitting part, where his proposed option was to take shears and trim the metal. In the end I had to forcefully put my foot down, we got it to fit without trimming but it left an awkward atmosphere for the last hour or two. I just couldn't stand back and watch it being bodged, even if it had the desired end result. 

[daverclasper]

Yes. Watching someone else, is worse than being watched?.

[Bfg]

On 21/03/2021 at 18:39, daverclasper said:

Yes. Watching someone else, is worse than being watched?.

If someone (invited) is specifically watching what I'm doing then I'll explain both what and why. However I also like to invite their thoughts / other approaches as I still have a lot to learn, and wisdom might even come from babes. 

Tommy is in a difficult position, because he's been very open about having worked professionally for a decent restoration shop. And that implies he ought to know what best to do.  He shaped that scenario, but still it has to then put pressure on him when a paying customer  is watching, and yet he's quite unsure of what he's doing.  Perhaps a bit of pride stops him talking things through, whereas because our roles are reversed - I can comfortably turn to him and say 'how would you do this ?'  I can then follow his recommendation ..or else proceed to do thing my own way ..after all it is my car.

On Thursday it was different because we each needed the other's physical help, and because I knew what needed to be done and why ..on this Triumph. I pushed him to get a move on but at the same time pulled my own weight, so we got on well.

But he's never seen me shape metal or make things from scratch. He doesn't know my history or experience, so when I suggested a different way or questioned his cuts of my  (quite rare) panel - then I guess he feels I'm undermining his expertise ..that I am an interfering amateur telling him what to do.!  I could feel the tension in the air, so backed off ..but then very little got done. 

The dynamics of our 'working relationship' was very different, because I couldn't work on what he was bashing and then also, from my point of view I'm mostly only using him for this task because I have no workshop facilities to do the job myself.  

Very possibly, unless he is really very good, he's in a no-win situation.    . . . and very likely,  I am in equally so.  

huh !

 

[poppyman]

2 hours ago, Bfg said:

If someone (invited) is specifically watching what I'm doing then I'll explain both what and why. However I also like to invite their thoughts / other approaches as I still have a lot to learn, and wisdom might even come from babes. 

Tommy is in a difficult position, because he's been very open about having worked professionally for a decent restoration shop. And that implies he ought to know and do best.  He's shaped the scenario, but still it's got to put pressure on him when a paying customer  is watching, and yet he's quite unsure of what he's doing.  Perhaps a bit of pride stops him talking things through, whereas because our roles are reversed - I can comfortably turn to him and say 'how would you do this ?'  I can then follow his recommendation ..or else proceed to do thing my own way ..after all it is my car.

On Thursday it was different because we each needed the other's physical help, and because I knew what needed to be done and why ..on this Triumph. I pushed him to get a move on but at the same time pulled my own weight, so we got on well.

But he's never seen me shape metal or make things from scratch. He doesn't know my history or experience, so when I tried to suggest a different way or question his cuts of my  (quite rare) panel - then I guess he feels I'm undermining his expertise ..that I am an interfering amateur telling him what to do.!  I could feel the tension in the air, so backed off ..but then very little got done. 

The dynamics of our 'working relationship' was very different, because I couldn't work on what he was bashing and then also, from my point of view I'm mostly only using him for this task because I have no workshop facilities to do the job myself.  

Very possibly, unless he is really very good, he's in a no-win situation. 

. . . and very likely,  I am in equally so (from his perspective).

huh !

 

A very difficult one Pete. I tend only to work with people who won't get upset and they can't upset me..... We can argue all the time, call each every name under the sun and still be laughing. But if you asked me for help? I would do as you ask as it's your car and vice versa as i don't know you well.... I hope i have worded that right Pete. It's a case of needing a helping hand.

Tony. 

[Bfg]

Thanks  I've paid my bill and politely told the workshop that I will probably use them again but that I have to be more selective on who I ask to do what task. 

Following advice on the TR forum, I've just checked the flatness of the radiator cap filler and it's fine. Where the cap's inside seal sits is not so flat though because there is what feels like a weld or solder all around that edge. I guess that's standard though. 

^ The cap that was fitted (left) is 4lb and was missing its rubber seal. The new cap (right) is 7lb.  And if the coolant system cannot take an extra 3psi pressure, then it would be running the gauntlet anyway ..with the system about to burst.  

I looked it up, and do see in Brooklands BL Heritage approved publishing's of the TR4 Spare Parts Catalogue, p.179 plate Z29, the filler cap's part number is 122136., and in Stanpart Spare Parts Catalogue for the TR4A, p.209 plate # AG3, the cap's part number is 137691.    

A higher cap pressure being specified (for the later / slightly more powerful engine) is logical, insomuch as the higher pressure also takes the coolant's boiling point up a little.  So as I understand it ; water at sea-level atmospheric pressure boils at 100 deg.  4psi would raise its boiling point to approximately 106 degrees, and at 7psi it would be approximately 111degrees.  In normal running - the difference would not be noticed, but in a hot climate (some American or southern European markets) and the engine is stewing in its own heat, when stopped in traffic, it might make all the difference.  Likewise for a sportscar that was being marketed as being suitable for club racing.

However, using blue antifreeze 50/50 mix takes the boiling point up to 130 degrees. So does it make much difference what the pressure is ?

Anyway, for today the plan is to test the water temperature gauge's sender and thermostat to see how well they work in a cup of near boiling water.  I also need to extend the length of the expansion bottle's pipe.

And before I add antifreeze - I want to replace all the water and heater pipes, and possibly some of their clips.  I hope to order those today, but first I need to search through this forum's archive of topics and see what's been said and advised.  I do NOT want brightly-coloured silicon hoses but aside from that - I don't know one pipe, or indeed one supplier, from another.   

Pete.

 

[poppyman]

Try for nos if you can Pete, they should be flexible if they are ok. I managed to get some for my Dolly off Fleabay and apart from one that was rock hard all were great. I did send the hard one back and got a full refund.

Tony.

[Bfg]

new old stock is surely not a good idea as rubber products are said to have a 10 year lifespan although in reality 15 -20 years seems to be good for purpose, but when the car is 54 years old - how old is NOS.?  

[Pete Lewis]

if you push the wallet black silicon hoses look ordinary and most have a lifetime warranty  but  they do  Cost £££

club shop dont do them for TR but I guess they know who does   whats on the TR shop ??

Pete

[Bfg]

Yesterday afternoon  I went to the dust bowl (where my storage container is) to do a few more TR jobs - related to its running temperature. 

I'm more and more suspecting the temperature gauge sensor &/or its wiring to be an issue.  I did have one fitted into the spare 4Aengine I bought in Nov 2019 (which was intended to have been rebuilt ready to go into 'Chance') but with moving house that particular item was packed safely away ..and somewhat frustratingly remains 'out of sight.'  Anyway I removed the one from Katie simply to clean it (in case it was encrusted with rusty crud) and to check its part number, so that I might buy a replacement. .

^ The numbers on three faces read ; GTR / 20G5 / 104.  I'm guessing GTR is the manufacturer, 20G5 being the part number, its length & fit, and the 104 might be the temperature that transmits "too flipping hot fella" to the gauge.   

Now I have those, I hope to cross reference, check it's the correct part, and to find another.

I also pulled the thermostat (yet again) to make some soup. .

^ The silver one in the middle is the new one (82-deg), the rust stained one at the bottom is the old one out of this engine (also 82-deg), the one at the top is a nos I bought for 'chance' (it is rated at 88-deg) and that to the left was one out of the spare engine.  The first three worked fine, but the latter, an old Waxstat, doesn't. 

^ I've now refitted the new replacement.  The one that was fitted has been cleaned of its rusty deposits and with the 88-deg one have been labeled and kept as spares.  The old Waxstat (right) which didn't work has been binned. 

 

Next up was the expansion bottle. . .

^ after cleaning as best I could while it was in situ., I pulled it out to clean it up and check that it wasn't cracked or otherwise damaged. The rusty colour staining was a hard encrustation. Whatever the root cause Katie has had this overflowing issue for a long time.   In any case it then took a flipping age to clean it off, with a coarse industrial scouring pad and a scraper.  Fortunately the bottle itself is in good shape and has been refitted. Its overflow pipe only reached a third of the way into the bottle. That's now been replaced with a new length of pipe which reaches to the bottom (cut at 45-deg so it can't go flat to the bottom).

 

I also pulled the bypass hose off ..

 

^ The bottom jubilee clip, on the water pump was loose enough to turn and pull up without undoing first) and there was again a fair degree of encrustation to be seen.  I've been told that the small hole size in this casting is correct for the TR4A, whereas the TR4 had a noticeably larger drilling. Again things were only cleaned up before the pipe was refitted.  There was also hard rust deposits within the first 1-1/2" of the rubber pipe ends. I used a small rotary wire brush to get rid of those and then wiped the inside of the pipe with a smear of silicon grease before refitting.

Can anyone explain why the difference in this pipe's hole ?

 

The next, and final job of the day, was to get up-close-and-personal with Katie's fan . .

^ The four blade fan is pretty useless at best and ..if possible, even more so when fitted back-to-front and with one blade slightly bent.  The fan's rotation is anti-clockwise when looking forward from the engine and so the ribs in the aluminium blade ought to face forward ..to offer a mediocre of leading-edge shape to the otherwise lacking aerofoil.  As fitted, reversed / rotated 180-deg. - the overall blade angle of attack is the same but the leading edge is facing backwards and so would induce stall..

Hey ho, it is an easy mistake to make but a pain-in-the-access to correct. Getting a spanner onto and undoing the four bolts has one's knuckles scraping over the radiator core, which feels similar to a cheese grater.  They did however come out and the fan was removed with the radiator in situ. .

^ The existing, surprisingly heavy fan with aluminium blades but a hub of two layers of steel. And its replacement ..a very lightweight plastic contoured-blade fan from the TR6 (also GT6 &/or Triumph 2000 perhaps) which has the same pcd / hole spacings.  So it's a straight swap, except that the TR6 fan's hub is level with the back edge of the blades (not the middle of their roots) - and when fitted this pushes the fan 1/2" further forward than the TR4 type. Awkwardly too, its fastening bolts (those from the TR4 are fine to reuse) sit into the bottom of the cup (hub) ..and that makes it very much more difficult to fit them, not least because a flat or ring spanner cannot be used. 

The cardboard shroud between the radiator and the grille prevents the radiator from simply being unbolted and pushed forward.  But I was able to lift it and rest it on a block of wood, without having to drain or totally lift it out.   In retrospect that might have been easier though. 

^ It looks a reasonably clean working environment (outside) but this is after sweeping up the sand and dust that blows literally everywhere.

..so laying on ones back with hair (or bald patch) in the wet I achieved this access  . .

^ although I couldn't get a hand through that gap,  I could see what i was doing when reaching under the chassis, to get my fingers in to loosely fit the bolts and the plate. And then, with a 1/2" socket on a 1/4" drive ratchet I could get between the radiator and those bolts to tighten them up. Finally tightened with an 3/8" drive ratchet. 

^ The original lock plate as removed off the TR4 fan. The central hole is hexagonal and it is supposed to fit / lock around the head of big bolt through the crankshaft's fan-extension. The four fan-securing bolts then lock it from unwinding.  I flattening and refitted the plate correctly, albeit inside the TR6's fan.  And after fitting and final tightening I even painted it (using a toothbrush to get in there). 

 

^ While the fan was off I took a couple of photos of the fan-extension on this car, which  is interesting ..insomuch as it appears to have been modified to clear the steering rack . .   So I have to ask - is the engine sitting low or is the rack sitting high ? 

Some of you might wonder why I take so many pictures ?  Well that's because very often I can see more in a photo, taken with a camera in a position I'd never get my fat head in.  For example, the eagle eyed among you might have spotted the U-clamp which is securing the steering rack. !  I hadn't spotted that from above.  

I wonder how long Bob's been driving it around like that ? 

An equally interesting question might be what else has rusted away because an overflowing radiator has been ignored for years ?

 

^ TR6 cooling fan in place. Admittedly it's not very 1960's but I prefer it to fitting an electric fan.  And very oddly ..with the engine running on fast tick-over.. the blast of air coming back and down the side of the engine (where it is safer for fingers) is in stark contrast to what was not at all happening with the original fan (as that was fitted).  

Although it's only 2-1/2 miles from the dust bowl to home.. already the temperature gauge suggests things are noticeably better than they were.

These are just single steps at a time ..but they do seem to be in roughly the right direction.  

But I'll not use the car until the steering rack fastening is corrected.

So that's all for right now,  I bid you a good weekend. 

Pete.

 

[Pete Lewis]

gtr104 is a generic part number    and used on a lot of cars incl.  4 and 4A  and many Mini's etc 

the sender has to be matched to the gauge design as you cant mix and match stabilised system parts with 

non stabilised systems   i guess by ageism the 4/4A are non stabilised gauge   systems 

stabilised  thermo bi metal gauges the needle moves slowly 

non stabilised needles tend to wag about and move instantly 

no experience of 4 an 4A gauges but for example all other triumphs are  

non stab senders 121997   and stabilised are GTR108

what on earth has caused the U clamp to part ????

Pte

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

38 minutes ago, Bfg said:

 

Some of you might wonder why I take so many pictures ?  Well that's because very often I can see more in a photo, taken with a camera in a position I'd never get my fat head in.  For example, the eagle eyed among you might have spotted the U-clamp which is securing the steering rack. !  I hadn't spotted that from above.  

I take a lot of photos - probably far too many - but with digital you can delete the unwanted ones. Many of mine are out of focus as I hold the camera where, like you, I can't get my head in, so usually can't see the viewfinder. It helps both with reassembly but also in working out how components are fitted or fastened. I can study them from the comfort of the computer and see what spares I need.

That steering rack clamp; is it the same as Herald?

If you want a spare unmolested fan extension there's a complete kit on eBay, fan, extension and all:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-TR2-TR3-TR4-Cooling-Fan-Pulley-Hub-and-Bolt/303929862544?hash=item46c3a1a990:g:lcsAAOSwuB1gMlac

 

[Bfg]

26 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

gtr104 is a generic part number    and used on a lot of cars incl.  4 and 4A  and many Mini's etc 

the sender has to be matched to the gauge design as you cant mix and match stabilised system parts with 

non stabilised systems   i guess by ageism the 4/4A are non stabilised gauge   systems 

stabilised  thermo bi metal gauges the needle moves slowly 

non stabilised needles tend to wag about and move instantly 

no experience of 4 an 4A gauges but for example all other triumphs are  

non stab senders 121997   and stabilised are GTR108

what on earth has caused the U clamp to part ????

Pete

Thanks Pete,

Katie's temp gauge is slow to move and steady. There no jumping about, so from what you're say its a stabilised type.   Whether that is correct for the car is a different ammeter altogether. !

The U-clamp was a bit of a surprise this morning as I was posting and looked at the photos for the first time.  Of course working outside there are big contrasts from concrete in the sunlight to the dirty little corners in and around a chassis, so yesterday I simply didn't see it.   Why..  is I thought one of your own expertize. - no ?

[Badwolf]

BFG - I bought one of the cheap laser thermometers from Lidl (where else). It is reasonably accurate under most circumstances. I use it for checking the temperature of bodywork prior to painting. Also for engine block, tyres, rads and loads of other bits and pieces. Even tried it as a covid test but it's not a medical unit. It's not too happy with silver(ish) things like roof sheeting, probably due to the higher reflectance. Just thought I'd mention it in case it helps at all.

[Pete Lewis]

senders  always a what should it be  on the old forum we had a engine changed for heating problems it was the sender mixed up that solved the hot readings  

rims show a stabiliser  https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-128484

Pete

[Peter Truman]

Pete That stabiliser must be electronic as surely the old style bi-metallic units would work with either pos or neg earth.

With alternator conversions and just over the years wouldn’t most Triumphs have been converted to neg earth, or even just for modern radio’s.

The daughters 65 Mk2 Spit had been converted to neg earth when we got it and it was still running a dynamo, maybe AMI here assembled them as Neg earth, must check with the old wizard.

[Bfg]

4 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

If you want a spare unmolested fan extension there's a complete kit on eBay, fan, extension and all:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-TR2-TR3-TR4-Cooling-Fan-Pulley-Hub-and-Bolt/303929862544?hash=item46c3a1a990:g:lcsAAOSwuB1gMlac

Thanks Colin,  That's a good price but I already have an unmolested fan-extension and a 'tropical fan' from my spare engine, but recognising they were useless by design is why I happened to have a TR6 fan on the shelf too.  And equally why I had a fan-extension made in aluminium ..which may in time find its way onto this car, but I've done what was necessary for the time being.  Now it is time to  move onto the next priorities which are ; the temperature gauge sensor, the steering rack mount, and the rubber hoses.  Without the first two being correct I'm not at all comfortable using the car.  

Pete.

[poppyman]

On 27/03/2021 at 10:29, Bfg said:

new old stock is surely not a good idea as rubber products are said to have a 10 year lifespan although in reality 15 -20 years seems to be good for purpose, but when the car is 54 years old - how old is NOS.?  

I always ask if the rubber is still supple Pete, if they have been stored right and not left outside or on a shelf they will be ok.

Tony.