That was a year that was..

[Bfg]

2 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

senders,  always a what should it be.  On the old forum we had a engine changed for heating problems - it was the sender mixed up that solved the hot readings  

rims show a stabiliser  https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-128484

Pete

Thanks Pete - good advice

I feel for the owner who changed the engine for heating problems.  Indeed I recognise how very easy it is to loose analytical objective ..and a pragmatic approach to getting down to the root cause, when symptoms clearly appear to point to a serious problem.  I've heard all sorts of things over this past few weeks, when the well intentioned kindly advice is to face the fact that I'll have to remove the cylinder head, have it skimmed, replace all the gaskets (including the figure of 8 gaskets under the base of these wet liners) as well as all the core plugs.  And while I'm at it - to check the bores and pistons, the big end and main shells, end float and timing chain, the oil and water pump, the carburetion and distributor / ignition system, and while the engine is out to have the radiator re-cored and to fit an electric fan.

Whereas my being 'ever the optimist' I'm hoping that the temp sender unit, the gauge or the voltage stabiliser is overdue retirement or perhaps a wire has come off the voltage stabiliser     I wonder where I might find that ? 

 

In case others face a similar situation, the clues I had or have are that ;

• the engine does not doesn't pink from it running too hot, nor clank excessively, and things like the exhaust joints do not tick as they cools down (again from being too hot).  I have had just one instance when the engine over-ran when turned off.
• this engine's oil pressure gauge typically reads 50psi (whether hot or cold). The prior owner used Halfords classic 20/50 in this engine which I know from experience is of low viscosity and so the pressure reading would be low.  However, the important factor is - the engine wasn't getting so hot as to thin this oil further - which would have registered as a drop on the oil pressure gauge, and as a flickering oil warning light at tick-over.    
• I have no doubt the cylinder-head gasket was leaking a little into the coolant.  Not so much as to make things blatantly obvious with spouting water everywhere, but just enough to pressurise the cooling system and push water out of the radiator's cap and overflow.  I think this leak was via one or both inside-end cylinder-head stud holes.  Those in turn let water into the sump as the engine cooled. And it was this that was evident as mayo in the rocker cover.  That moisture / condensation has been steadily drying out since I re-torqued the cylinder head, despite my only having yet driven a small number of short distance trips.   
• the radiator was not boiling over or steaming (which would have been obvious in the cool springtime air) from the engine running too hot.  Its water loss may be attributed to the radiator cap having lost its base rubber seal and the excess pressure before the cylinder head gasket was finally re-torqued ..after having been disturbed in 2016 !  
• the water pressure in the cooling system is enough to open the 4lb (4psi) radiator cap, but is not so much as to squirt water out of pipe joints, even though I found the bypass hose's jubilee clip to be finger loose. 
• without a thermostat fitted ; the engine ran cold, which in turn necessitated my having to use choke.  If the engine was running incredibly hot then the freely-circulating water would have been very hot too.
• the frothing of the water I saw in the radiator filler may simply because it was contaminated, I wonder if the prior owner had tried flushing the system himself ..and had added 'something' to help clear the rust ?
• the frothing of the water I saw (and found alarming !) in the radiator would also be because no thermostat was fitted (..which I removed because the temp reading was so high).  Without a thermostat the rush of water under the filler cap is very much more than normal.  But that was calmed when the thermostat was correctly fitted.  My removing and checking the thermostat operation in a pot on the camping-cooker gives me the reassurance that it is working correctly ..when fitted with its wax bulb facing the engine ( oops I did get fit it the wrong way round - once !)
• and the radiator is not cold from the coolant not circulating through it.  So it must be clear and working (..to some degree). 
• the car's heater is working well, but is not so hot as to be alarmingly hot or smelly.
• The temperature gauge steadily reads hotter and hotter as the engine gets hotter.  It does this steadily, but then doesn't stop at a mid-way place.  As the engine runs faster the temperature reads hotter. 
• However.. when I then stop at traffic lights or slow in traffic.., the temp gauge reading drops.  Whereas logically it ought to reflect the engine temp rising as it stews in its own heat because of the lesser air flow.  Very odd but I think an important clue to suggest - the gauge, its sender unit, or their wiring may have an issue which needs to be checked out. 

Thanks for the link to that voltage stabiliser. At least I now know what  to look for, even though I'm not sure where to look.  The wire from the temp sender unit goes into the bound under-bonnet loom and goes forward, and then across the grille, to then come back down the other side of the engine bay to the bulkhead.. I'll follow the wires and expect to find it on the bulkhead or under the dashboard somewhere.

cheers, Pete.      

[Colin Lindsay]

Did you fit tab washers on the fan bolts? If so, hopefully the correct way round...

[Bfg]

33 minutes ago, poppyman said:

I always ask if the rubber is still supple Pete, if they have been stored right and not left outside or on a shelf they will be ok.

Tony.

I love the concept that you might actually get an honest answer.   Do tell me - what planet is Woore, Cheshire on ?

However talking of supple rubber ( ..on this particular website Gentlemen) ..I have just received my order of three 165/80-15 Continental tyres from MyTyres.co.uk  ..these are date stamped 49/20 and have the most supple side walls of any tyre I have ever fitted.  I really look forward to trying them on the road.    Great price too for a premium quality tyre.

As an aside, the rear tyres fitted to the car are date-stamped 1994 and I cannot find a date on the deflated and worn spare.   

Pete

 

[Bfg]

☺️

40 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Did you fit tab washers on the fan bolts? If so, hopefully the correct way round...

 

Nope, I fitted the TR4 / 4A type . .

8 hours ago, Bfg said:

^ The original lock plate as removed off the TR4 fan. The central hole is hexagonal and it is supposed to fit / lock around the head of big bolt through the crankshaft's fan-extension. The four fan-securing bolts then lock it from unwinding.  I flattening and refitted the plate correctly, albeit inside the TR6's fan.  And after fitting and final tightening I even painted it (using a toothbrush to get in there). 

 

^ This when straightened is Moss Europe item is Lock Plate, crank bolt.   on illustration TR24_15_03_03.jpg it is item W62,  part # 108497, for £8.50. 

 

3/4" dia. plain washers were used over this / under the bolt heads, and then thick paint (POR-15) scrubbed over and around the tightened fastenings. There were no tabbed plates previously fitted and, although that is incorrect because there should have been a balance plate and also the two tabbed plates, it will have to do until I pull the radiator for better access.  

 

Amazingly the fan fitted to the car, and clearly still in fine condition, cost £113 new from Moss..  Does anyone want to buy one ..lightly used - half price ?

 

Pete.

[Pete Lewis]

 Pete stabilisers (by Smiths )  were nearly all attached to the back of the speedo 

they do need to be earthed and fitted the right way up (marked top)

as temp readings seem to climb as you drive  does suggest this is due to the increase in running voltage which the stabiliser ....  well  stabilises to around a constant 10.5v  approx so the variations in running voltages does not affect the readings 

pete

 

 

[Bfg]

Excellent Pete, I didn't know what the voltage stabiliser did so thank you, your explanation makes sense, as does having it set to around 10.5v.  

 

As seems to be very common on these and other classic cars - Katie's  under-dash wiring and also those to the overdrive is 'dangling' with poor and often superfluous connections and loose earths.  Personally it drives me nuts and there's a compulsion in me to trim everything to length, to re-route and order, tidy, protect and secure each wire ..and to clean and Vaseline every connection - But I have to look away (for the time being) as I tackle priority tasks ..just to get the car roadworthy. 

Do owners not realise that each and every loose wire and crappy connection is a potential electrical short - which is a fire hazard, and that smoke and possibly flames coming from under the dashboard will inevitably distract the driver's attention from watching the road, &/or else may cause the vehicle to breakdown at some dangerous place ? 

Even looking at photos of very expensive cars for sale, which are supposedly just restored - its extraordinary to see wires dangling . . .

 

^ at £50 less than £28,000 for this recently recommissioned and upgraded non-overdrive TR4 on ebay "This car will be featured in an upcoming episode of Salvage Hunters Classic Cars featuring Drew Pritchard and Paul Cowland, and we would be keen for the new owner to potentially appear on camera purchasing the car from our presenters."  I might reasonably expect to see better than a taped-up grab handle, a carpet set which doesn't fit around the gear change, ineffective windscreen wiper blades, and loose wires dangling from under the dash.  If these on-show things are to that standard ..what on earth are the out-of-sight, out-of-mind things like ! 

I must admit Katie  was nowhere near that sort of money, but I had hoped to have bought a safe and roadworthy car that I might steadily improve. The car was still in use (albeit infrequently) by the prior owner, but so far I've just been fire fighting (..on the one occasion literally !) basic issues of usability.  It's frightening to imagine how many MOT exempt cars are being driven around in similar or worse-still conditions.  As has been said before ; it'll only take one high profile incident before the privileges we presently enjoy will be taken away.

Sorry, I'll get off the soap box now.     

[Colin Lindsay]

Not to mention the missing stalks on the steering column...

Bodges / poor workmanship is usually covered by the phrase: 'what do you expect from a car that's over 60 years old'... or 'this car is fifty years old and has some character, as you'd expect'.

I did get positively alarmed with a Herald on eBay a while back which the owner was claiming that he regularly used to commute to work, and despite being positively crumbly in all areas was being sold as mot-exempt and fit to be driven straight away.

[poppyman]

11 hours ago, Bfg said:

I love the concept that you might actually get an honest answer.   Do tell me - what planet is Woore, Cheshire on ?

However talking of supple rubber ( ..on this particular website Gentlemen) ..I have just received my order of three 165/80-15 Continental tyres from MyTyres.co.uk  ..these are date stamped 49/20 and have the most supple side walls of any tyre I have ever fitted.  I really look forward to trying them on the road.    Great price too for a premium quality tyre.

As an aside, the rear tyres fitted to the car are date-stamped 1994 and I cannot find a date on the deflated and worn spare.   

Pete

 

I guess i have just been lucky on "planet Woore" Pete  If anything is not as described on Fleabay, it goes right back and i get a refund. Something i have struggled with from non fleabay sellers as they expect you to pay return postage. I like a nice  uncomplicated life if i can  Glad you have got some tyres in date it seems to be a bonus these days. I will be watching with interest your progress with Katie as you have been waiting a while for her to come along. 

Tony.

[daverclasper]

18 hours ago, Bfg said:

if they have been stored right and not left outside or on a shelf they will be ok.

What is the shelf scenario please?

[Bfg]

The shelf scenario is when a new (so still soft-compound rubber) tyre is stood upright on a shelf for years and so it develops a flat spot.  Worse than shelves are racks ..where there are two rails and the tyre spans between those, and then the rubber sets with two indentations.!  Old school motorcycle dealers often did this. Tyres can however be laid on their side and stacked (If I recall no more than four high) for a good length of time (pending atmospheric conditions) without the settling effects being felt once they are fitted.

Pete.   

[Bfg]

  celebrations, I've now been Katie's custodian for 3 weeks...   where's the Brandy !

And yes I know.. the way I've been posting on here it must seem like three years !   You might thank goodness that I bought a roadworthy car rather than a project 

 

9 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Bodges / poor workmanship is usually covered by the phrase: 'what do you expect from a car that's over 60 years old'... or 'this car is fifty years old and has some character, as you'd expect'.

I've had a look this afternoon and the fan extension is tight to the feel (I grabbed and yanked at it ..in layman's terms).

The steering rack itself isn't worn at all and the hollowed reshaping of the fan extension isn't accurately aligned with the rack either. I'd suggest it was done by hand or perhaps on a lathe.  which must have been necessary because even now there's only the flat of a screwdriver blade between the fan extension and the rack, so there's not a lot of clearance.  The rack is in red poly-bushes, and these parts are included in a kit of suspension polybushes (poly44) were bought from TRGB in August '03.  

The engine mount on the RHS (drivers side) is impossible to see even with my camera poked into places my fat head wouldn't fit, but on the LHS it looks like this . . .

^ That front engine mount may be passed its best-sell-by-date but it is in generally the right sort of shape rather than having slumped down.  According to the file they were bought from TRGB in May 2001 (so about 37,000 miles ago)

Note ; the radiator's bottom hose and the water pump's intermediate pipe only have a very short steel-tube connector piece.  A cursory look suggests they are in good shape though, so it's mainly the top radiator hose that is imo iffy  ..that is aside from the heater's pipes . . .

 

^ The hot water pipe into the heater are both shot, and when touched leak.  I think Bob might have been in for steaming hot foot-bath had these not been addressed.  That scorching hot feet sensation is something I'd personally like to avoid. I wonder when you last checked those in your Triumph ! ?  

The question now is ; rubber or silicon ?   And I'd also question whether the the old wire type clips are perhaps better than the lumpy jubilee clips for these smaller pipes.?  Perhaps the Mikalor stainless steel band clamps are worth investing in, if they are available in that smaller size, as they tend to distribute the clamping pressure more evenly. Opinions invited

On the engine side of the bulkhead the heat pipes are faring better but for the one having been chafed through to the reinforcement by the battery strap. 

      

Surely there is a neater arrangement of these pipes, wires and cables, so they don't rub against the steering column rubber UJ or the throttle linkage.  I invite you to share your own photos of how this corner might be neatest - thanks. 

Yes, both top and bottom steering column rubber doughnuts are also perished. Possibly that's just surface cracking, but I can't be sure until I pull them out and give them a good twist. Might I ask, are they susceptible to suddenly breaking up or they fail-safe and just become notchy or noisy.? 

 

The steering rack U-bolt clamp revealed a little something I wasn't expecting . . .

^ the U-bolt securing the steering rack was incomplete. It appeared when seen from the other side of the car to have corroded through for a 3/4" length. That impression being compounded by the splash of rusty radiator water over it.  However when poked with a screwdriver it revealed what felt to be black silicon sealant smeared over it ..and under that was a pretty colour blue bolt head.  That bolt's head had clearly been cut so the fastening might fit tight into the saddle's corner, and presumably this 'mod' was then hidden from the MOT man.   As noted above ; the poly-bushes appear to have been bought in '03.  So I guess with a J-bolt and this small bolt clamping the bracket down - things are not as dangerous as I first imagined.  

Good news also is that it hadn't just rusted away, which gives me hope for the adjacent chassis structure !

 

^ Sometime I'm going to feel compelled to tackle the wiring, and perhaps even repaint the bulkhead one colour ..but that can wait for the moment. I was looking for the voltage stabiliser which Pete advised might be on the back of the speedo.  It wasn't but I found it where the loom comes through the bulkhead. . .

 

The new one I've seen in photo (link from Pete)  on the Rimmer Brothers website, specifically labels one end as Top, whereas this is (relatively speaking) on its side.  Perhaps its orientation makes all all  difference, and would account for the unreliable fuel gauge and just-confusing temperature gauge readings ? 

Thanks for being there gentlemen..  these Triumphs are such an adventure !

Pete.

[Pete Lewis]

me thinks the previous owners had shares in spaghetti     there 's  some terrible  hash up of 

what goes where all intertwined  ,    where to start is not for the faint hearted  

one day it will look nice , 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

You need to buy two cars, one original and unmolested, then you can match one to the other and see what goes where, what's missing, and what's been bodged.

[Peter Truman]

Now I understand your logic Colin with all the Heralds you have! I thought a spare was the old Jaguar pre-requisite.

[Bfg]

2 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

Now I understand your logic Colin with all the Heralds you have! I thought a spare was the old Jaguar pre-requisite.

His logic is flawed.. most every one of these cars have been 'altered' from original &/or bodged..  That's why he has so many ..he's still trying to find two the same.  

The few that are original are those cherished examples securely locked away in 'discerning' persons garages. 

[Sparky_Spit]

Hi Bfg - the instrument panel voltage stabilisers and the standard mechanical ones do need to be mounted with "up" at the top.

Also, the securing screw provides the earth (-ve) connection to the unit so make sure there is a good clean area free from paint/dirt/rust around the screw hole.

Lastly, you can buy solid state versions of these built into standard looking cases, or you make your own using a 10.1v zener chip.

[Bfg]

Thanks Sparky, I shall pull this one out then and see which way is up and refit it ..fastened against bare metal wiped over with Vaseline.  I appreciate your advice.  I must admit I don't really care what it looks like (standard case or not) because it is high up in the footwells and behind carpet, I just want it to be reliable for the next 20+ years.    If it needs replacing (after having tried it fitted upright) - which would you recommend I buy ?

Pete.

 

1 hour ago, Mathew said:

after you have sorted out your spaghetti you could have a look at mine!

I've been there many times with motorcycles, and have designed looms for kit-cars and one-offs, and restored old cars including other marques like Citroen and Jaguar.  And although time consuming I find it to be a generally satisfying task.  Lucas tracer colours are (to me) great ..very much easier and more logical than Citroen's four colours with end-tab markers, especially as those were often missing. 

From where you are in the attached photo I'd start off by grouping wires according to use (tracer colour ID), their length and destination - and locally tie them with blue masking tape (rather than electrical tape).  It soon reestablishes order out of the psychedelic pasta, and lengths can then be easily adjusted.  I use the beige masking tape for hand-written labels near the wire's end to remind me of their ID.  Easy-peasy. 

Now electronic components, rather then wiring, is something else. Although I get the general gist of their function - I have very little knowledge of their their workings, adjustment, or repair.  They are simply components which work or are swapped out (ie., I do fault finding by simple tests or substitution).  But then.. even the specialist professionals seem easily baffled by what appears on the face of it to be simple principles. 

For example,  I had an MC45 dynamo which confounded the specialist ..despite them having the darn thing back seven times, because it didn't work. The cause was finally diagnosed by an old boy (semi-retired) down in Devon, who thought to test the thing running backwards on his lathe. It then worked.  Yes, the dynamo's armature had been rewound (four times to my knowledge and pocket) but around in the wrong direction ..despite 'direction of rotation' arrows stamped into the field winding's case.  Hey ho, sometimes the so obvious is less than apparent.  

Pete.    

[Bfg]

On 29/03/2021 at 08:48, Pete Lewis said:

 Pete stabilisers (by Smiths )  were nearly all attached to the back of the speedo 

they do need to be earthed and fitted the right way up (marked top)

as temp readings seem to climb as you drive  does suggest this is due to the increase in running voltage which the stabiliser ....  well  stabilises to around a constant 10.5v  approx so the variations in running voltages does not affect the readings 

pete

 

2 hours ago, Sparky_Spit said:

Hi Bfg - the instrument panel voltage stabilisers and the standard mechanical ones do need to be mounted with "up" at the top.

Also, the securing screw provides the earth (-ve) connection to the unit so make sure there is a good clean area free from paint/dirt/rust around the screw hole.

Lastly, you can buy solid state versions of these built into standard looking cases, or you make your own using a 10.1v zener chip.

Wonders of mobile phone cameras with a built-in torch and auto focus down to a couple of inches .. I've just photographed what I assume to be the voltage regulator on my car, and it looks to be a pcb / solid state unit. . .  with no obvious label to say TOP.    I'll remove it, clean up individual contacts, and the underlying paint which may be preventing it from earthing well ..but otherwise are these units known to fail ? 

Thanks for your advice, Pete 

 

[Pete Lewis]

the crimped flange doesnt look as an original  so ....needs a bit of sherlock H.

Pete

[Bfg]

28 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

the crimped flange doesnt look as an original  so ....needs a bit of sherlock H.

Pete

Ah ha, going back to the photo on your link to Rimmers voltage stabiliser - it looks the same, albeit photographed from the other side.  And according to the writing on that it is fitted with TOP correctly. So my only hope is that the earth is poor or else its a faulty unit.   However my car is negative earth.   Watson the game is afoot !

[Colin Lindsay]

I doubt if the modern electronic versions need to be fitted in any particular orientation; it may have been a requirement for the bi-metallic strip of the originals, but that no longer makes any difference. The word is probably kept on the replacements, as in the Rimmers photo, for purists who want the original look but the modern components.

[Pete Lewis]

ok bum steer  my two golden oldie spares are fully crimped    ah well  

with luck the i for instruments and B for battery are male and female so you cant get it wired back to front 

mine are   ha !

if you see whats inside i dont see why this really matters  there little inside to react to gravity forces 

could like some triumph springs   mark front or top to save any questions  when it has no effect 

pete 

 

[Bfg]

Thanks Colin, the body-shell bracket has a tab at the top and its attachment hole at the bottom so that was correct but my detective work has revealed this TR shop receipt from 2003 . . .

Like Holmes I was looking for it, and so found the part number relates to positive earth.   As my car has negative earth the part number required is ;  Voltage Stabiliser - Negative Earth - 148876A.

Having now removed the component from the car, to see it clearly in the daylight, there is no part number on it nor any symbol to infer that it is for either positive or negative earth.

I find no later receipt in the file, which alludes to this component, but note that the thermostat was subsequently changed a couple of times, as was the voltage regulator, the cyl. head gasket and the figure of 8 gasket.   One might presume that the unfortunate Bob has been concerned with these issues since he first put the car back on the road. 

Pete.

[Pete Lewis]

good place for gauge information   as they make all the smiths units https://www.caigauge.com/

but i cant find their stabiliser sender TT6811-01

https://www.caigauge.com/documents//pdfs/bi-metals-wiring-diagram-366.pdf

https://www.smiths-instruments.co.uk/temp-transmitters

looking for history on pos neg earth changes but  only says 

Voltage regulator 10 volt output. Semiconductor type, required for fuel and temp gauges.

pete

[Bfg]

Good evening ;

This afternoon I refitted Katie's  voltage stabiliser, back onto the footwell bracket (what an awkward sod to reach, a left handed operation and tucked up in the far corner, in line with the top of the pedals).  I did give the bracket a cursory scrape to remove a some paint ..but nothing much.  And then headed off to the farm shop for some green groceries, about five miles away. The temperature gauge is now reading on the cool side of normal.  Whether one of the wires had a dry connection, or the earth is now adequate - I don't know.  Nothing else was touched ..but it now works.  The effectiveness of the TR6 fan is possibly why the temperature is on the low side of normal.

After shopping, I came back via the dust bowl (about 3 miles) where, ostensibly because the tappets were too noisy, I removed the rocker cover and the rocker-shaft-assembly to again re-torque the head. This was for the second time in two weeks, but I figured., if things were now mostly OK - then why not just settle thing down just that tad more, just to be sure. At the same torque settings of course. 

The inside of the rocker cover did still have a little condensation, and light mayo down one end, but not enough to write home about.  My re-torquing and resetting the tappets was done in double quick time because I had an appointment to get back to, but I did also check the level in the radiator.  And the water was both clear and full to the brim. There's been no sign of water overflowing from the expansion bottle over the passed few local trips.

Re-starting the engine and the drive home was quieter than I've previously known with this car. Although just 2-1/2 miles, from the still slightly warm engine, the gauge soon settled again to reading on low side of normal (needle pointing to 6:30 - 7:00).  For the first time, all appears normal. 

it's ominously Weird ! 

. . .

. .

.

... but good !