That was a year that was..

[GrahamB]

The shrouding around the radiator was missing when I bought my Spitfire.  As well as constructing the side pieces, I made a horizontal piece to lay across the chassis rails in front of the radiator.  The idea was that the only way for the air entering through the grill to escape was through radiator rather than take the path of least resistance and flow down and under the car.  I have never had any overheating problems whilst driving even with the standard narrow radiator but this could be just good luck and nothing to do with the extra board.  Also the car seemed more stable at motorway speeds as there was was a lower air pressure under the car but that may be just wishful thinking.

[Bfg]

I must admit Graham I do wonder why that gap was left open between the chassis rails in front of the radiator.  The standard radiator ducting was also open at the bottom.  I also thought of closing the chassis rails in,  or to add a forward-facing lip ..so as to "shave" some of the air passing under the car up and into the radiator. 

However, I'm sure the cooling is effective at speed ..both when open or closed across the bottom, but the concern with any old car I've owned is what happens when the engine is very hot after a run and then is forced to sit n' stew in traffic.   One might reason that the open space between the forward chassis rails contributes to / doubles the area of air intake through the radiator (sucked by the cooling fan) when the car is stationary and in slow traffic.  

 

[Bfg]

Update :

Last Wednesday I took TR Katie  across to M&T Classics, Wolverhampton, to leave the car there for a chassis swap.  Sorry no piccies, but with a friend accompanying me in a modern (..just in case), the TR had no issues en-route, save a little oil weep seemingly burning on the exhaust and our GPS navigating us through a housing estate until we came to a dead-end.  Considering the cooling, clutch and other issues already experienced, and that I've only driven the car during its collection and then once for a 80 miles Sunday afternoon jaunt through quiet country lanes (that is aside from mostly back n' forth to the dust bowl / storage container).. undertaking such a journey, with a car partly dismantled, with a cracked chassis and other iffy states of affair was not taken lightly.  Safety was not a concern but for the prospect of breaking down on a motorway, so I did specifically take out national breakdown cover. !  

From here M & T are 170 miles up n' across the A14, and then across n' up the M6 to junction 10.  The TR's wire wheels are out of true or out of balance, or both, and so I needed to hold the steering wheel, with both hands all the way, to prevent it shaking too much.  As always I drove with the top down, and so was very glad to have no more than a few spits of rain the whole way.  Unfortunately there was a headwind against us all ..and so wind buffeting and wind noise were., less than relaxing.  However the thing I'd forgotten about driving a sports car (..it's been many years since) and especially an open top - is that other vehicle's tyres are up there with the top of the side-window glass.  That's quite intimidating and, from six foot away, flipping noisy.  Never-the-less the trip was an uneventful Success.   

Aside from doing the chassis swap and to hopefully sort out some body tub structural issues and the odd panel fit, I'm also asking Mark's team to do some chassis mods for me. This is because I feel the back end of the chassis is weak and vulnerable to fatigue, and because I want to tow a small camping trailer with the car.  In exchange for the labour of they doing those mods., I agreed to remove all carpets, the trim panels (inc those on the doors), the passenger seat, and dashboard support (H-frame) and the gearbox tunnel (to be fitted with just a few fastenings for the trip). The radiator ducting was removed, and I was also asked to remove all of the body-mounting bolts into the chassis, and to refit them with Coppaslip.  Likewise with all the wing fastenings. The bumpers and their irons were removed all together. 

With having to finish my task of replacing all the coolant hoses.., this dismantling, their rusty bolts and wrong fastenings (..I hate cross head screws in awkward places !) accounted for a week of my time ..inbetween rain showers.  Equally though it would save M & T hours in preparation for lifting the body off and to protect them from any welding.  And they won't have the labour in refitting everything again.

Of course, with no sound deadening inside the car, trim panels off and some of the stays and body mountings (bumper irons for example help clamp the wings in place) just added to noise levels and the number of shakes n' rattles .. all together rather reminiscent of a farmer's old trailer bouncing down a dirt track.

Still the jobs were done to deadline and the car was delivered as pre-arranged. 

 

For those who might be interested here are a few illustrations to explain what chassis mods I'm asking for (these being on top of the 'usual' stiffening mods carried out on these chassis such as boxing in open channels of the diff mounts and doubling up on the the front suspension's wishbone brackets) . . .

   

^  07 refers to a flat plate welded inbetween the flanges of the chassis rear legs.  The one shown was done by Malcolm in Australia, following the theory that this plate on edge is difficult to bend (in the vertical plane).  He used 9mm thick plate, and did this with body on from under the car.  Whereas I'm asking for 5 or 6mm plate ..but for that to be extended right the way to the back, so that I have something secure to bolt a towing hitch onto. 

^ Red numbers refer to various more-major mods (addendum to the standard TR4A chassis), whereas the yellow arrows indicate additional gusset plates.  Perhaps you can visualise the load paths I'm attempting to smooth-out diagonally across the car (01, 02, & 08), and then how the rear diff mounts being tied together at their tops (05 & 06) and gusseted at the bottom help create a longitudinal support bridge forward to the main chassis rails.  The TR6 body also mounts to the chassis via brackets (04). These were not fitted to the TR4A chassis but I feel are useful to link the body structure together with the chassis.  It looks a lot of work, but when the body is off it's not such a big job.  IMO the chassis design is a sad compromise without them, with one side of the car barely attached to the other.

Below  shows the standard chassis - which as you can see is not otherwise (structurally) joined between the front chassis cross-member and the 1.25mm thin pressed plate just forward of the diff  ..that's half the length of the car.!   And after that the chassis legs splay out and mostly rely on open channel-section bridges to join one side of the car to the other.  Bolted onto these bridges are not only the differential, with its torsional loading from the drive, but also the suspension springs and dampers.  The torsional load, just from the diff, is enough to tear the metal around its mounting studs (a very common failure).., so imagine if you might the chassis twist induced by one wheel going over a bump and the kinetic force through that suspension spring and damper.  There's little wonder that the early / sidescreen TR's and TR4 are preferred for race and rallying. Their chassis is clearly a more coherent design.

^ shown in green ; proposed 5 or 6mm thick jacking plates to be added, just where the car is usually lifted on a two poster or trolley jack.  I'll paint these to highlight them to garage mechanics and tyre fitters.!

It will be interesting !!! 

May the early summer sunshine fill your car with pleasant warmth and light.

Pete.    

[Dick Twitchen]

58 minutes ago, Bfg said:

The TR's wire wheels are out of true or out of balance, or both, and so I needed to hold the steering wheel, with both hands all the way, to prevent it shaking too much. 

Had something similar when I first rebuilt the GT6 and assumed it was the wheels, in the end found the spline adaptors worn and incorrect nuts holding them on (wrong angle).

Dick

[Bfg]

36 minutes ago, Dick Twitchen said:

Had something similar when I first rebuilt the GT6 and assumed it was the wheels, in the end found the spline adaptors worn and incorrect nuts holding them on (wrong angle).

Dick

I understand that the wheel studs are often hand-cut short when fitting wire wheel adapter splines.  I was recently discussing this with a friend, and pointed out that some of my car's studs had been cut worryingly too short, ie., on some ; a couple of threads could be seen inside the wheel nut. Conversely on others ; the studs were longer and so protruding out of their wheel nut by a couple of threads.   He added that perhaps one or two were long enough to prevent the wire-wheel from sitting snug against the conical shape of the splined-adapter.  So although the wheel's spinner may be very tight - the wheel is being held off very slightly on one side (at a slight angle)  ..so then, relative to the bearing axis, the wheel wobbles.

It's interesting to note that an odd wrong nut can do the same thing.  Thanks Dick. 

[Bfg]

Club night tonight at the Sorrel Horse, Barham 

[Bordfunker]

You are not mucking about with those chassis repairs!

Really liking the reinforcements, and looking at your pics the car definitely needs them.

Got me thinking about reinforcing the Herald’s chassis now!

Karl

[Bfg]

poor poor Katie.. looking so forlorn

^ in the progress of stripping down, from Saturday.  

Story so far is that ; the inner panels, A and B-posts are in pretty good shape..  no unexpected horrors.  There's fraying to the rear wing bottom corner flanges, but nothing that will stop the world from spinning.  Driver's side sill is good but needs a few spot welds, which I knew about.  And the LHS foot-well side panel is detached from the sill. Again I knew about this.  

Detached with no upturn flange. although there do appear to be rivets or perhaps lug welds visible under the underseal.  The sill being foam filled doesn't help, nor does the vent's plenum drainage into this area. 

 

The sill's ends are also rusted on this side so the prospect is to replace this sill.  Driver side sill is in much better shape.

So far then, nothing devastating for a 54 year old car which was amateur restored 22 years ago.

Pete.

[Bfg]

And now for something completely different . .

Because my forlorn TR is part dismantled, in prep to taking it across for a chassis swap ..  the floor of my one-bed apartment's lounge is overflowing with tools and bits n' bobs, from doing all this.  I picked up a rack of my old garage plastic shelves, from the storage container, and that's now in the corner of the room, together with tyres, the passenger seat, and a work-mate folding bench on the floor next to it.  I have things like the bumpers and interior trim In the entrance hall.  Yep I'm single ! as inside my home is rather reminiscent of a garage.  Fortunately (hopefully) most of this clutter is only temporary ..until I refit those parts to the car.  Similarly, the apartment's patio area was likewise getting more and more cluttered.   My answer to that was to delve under my old boat to see what pieces of ply I had pulled out of the skip over the past few years.  Those then determined the size of a storage bench for the patio  . . .

   

^ screwed and fibreglass glued, then moved it onto the grass to be painted (using up old gloss white paint that I had in storage for a little too long). Note the bottom of this box is stepped because i want to store stuff under, as well as in, the box.

^ outside faces of the storage box were painted with masonry paint, the 4 x 2's were left over from when I fitted out the storage container.  Similarly all the screws used were left overs (from many years !).

^ hidden out of sight underneath .. and easy enough to chain secure inside there.

The pad looking civilised again.  The bench planks were formerly dvd shelves before I moved home, and before that were an American-king-size bed base which I bought for the latex the mattress was made from. That cost me a princely £1., and the latex is now the mattress in my boat. The brand new plastic cover seen here was given to me by a neighbour ..on route to the dumpster to throw it away.  In time that will be changed for timber ..made into an open trellis, so honeysuckle and other plants can grow over it.  I'll be watching the skip down at the boatyard for more scrap timber to make that from. 

Time ;  Mostly over the bank holiday weekend, but with having to make things to the size of the timber I happened to have, things took a little longer than I hoped. About 2-1/2 days in all. 

Outlay cost ;  Zilch

Usefulness ;   excellent storage for bits I don't want in the apartment  +  a comfortable six-foot long garden bench seat, just the right height for the table and chairs ..left here by a previous tenant.  The canopy providing shade when the sun is too hot and the size is good for sitting across, legs up, to read a book.

That'll do at the price

Pete.

[Badwolf]

Pete - Excellent job. Exceptionally useful and a great price (my sort of cost price!!) as well as being well made.

As for Katie, fret not, she will be whole again soon, you can rebuild her, stronger, faster (sorry, that was the Six Million Dollar Man/Woman)

[Bfg]

Further updates from M&T Classics, Wolverhampton. . .

Sent to me on Saturday, which was followed up by a very positive phone conversation to say what he'd seen and reflections on the general condition

. . .  Body off

^ chassis and mechanicals now accessible for inspection and further dismantling

^ This is the area of rear outrigger / diff & damper mounting bridge, I clean off from underneath, which more clearly shows the cracks I could see.  There may be something obscure about my spraying zinc/cold galvanising paint on this, but even for a short while I couldn't leave bare metal showing.

^ Body mounting washers &/or rubbers were missing and the body tub was chafing against the chassis in several places. Most would have just caused annoying rattles and squeaks, but this is the rear suspension spring turret.  In the bottom-right of the photo you can see a groove worn mostly through that spring cup by the rear inner-wing's flange.  Before very long that spring-cup would have cracked through. 

^ This is one of the differential's mounting studs pulling out of the bridge (which also serves as the rear suspension spring turret).   I had seen this from under the car but, with restricted access, all I could see was weld splatter over weld splatter ..which I just knew would not have penetrated the metal to hold the pin secure.   My Tr4 engine has just 105bhp and 128 ft.lb of torque (on a good day) ..which is considerably less than a tuned Tr5 or Tr6, but still.. just the torque through the drive-train, pulling and twisting at these pins, cause their mountings to crack and rip out (.. so common on each IRS TR model - that it is a usual place to reinforce).

The cracks around the chassis rear legs were imo repairable in-situ with the body on, particularly if i replaced that bridge, but it was seeing this attempt at welding from the underside of the car which led to the decision to have the body lifted off and to do the job properly.  

^ Outriggers and rear-end-of-the sill body mounts in surprisingly excellent condition and the suspension was (subsequent to the original restoration) fitted with poly-bushes.   Body to chassis contact is evident in various places ...more clanking / vibration noises !   And unfortunately, the trailing arm poly-bushes were assembled dry (no silicon grease ?) and their bolts without Coppaslip ..so are seized.  Together these may account for the distinctive creaking noises from the car's suspension.   The bolts will have to be cut out and the poly-bushes replaced.  more cost !

 

   

^ the gearbox is out to reveal the new clutch I'd fitted.  The gearbox has been dropped off to the same gearbox specialist (Classic Transmissions if I recall)  who rebuild my old Jaguar gearbox some years back.  A very nice gentleman / old-boy will do a quick rebuild for us, as I'm aware of noises which point to the lay-shaft bearings being on their way out.  It's opportune to do this now, while the engine is out rather than to go through the hassles and to pay the labour cost later.  Hopefully by catching it early, it will have avoided damage to the gears themselves.  Mark is being very helpful and aware of my financial limitations, and is not charging to deliver the gearbox to the specialist (..on his way home).  It was booked in advance and because M&T use the same gentleman all the time, the task ought to fit-in with our chassis-swap schedule. 

The front half of the chassis is again in good shape but the (again usual) reinforcements to the suspension mounts hadn't been done.  They have, of course, been done on the replacement chassis. 

^ the diff., Mark says appears to have been rebuilt not long ago. I would like to know what ratio it is as I prefer taller overall gearing for touring. Its front seal is weeping, so he'll swap that out.  Likewise half-shafts, their UJ's and gaiters all appear to be in good order, as is the prop-shaft.  While dismantled, Mark will be swapping-out each suspension spring, so the car will then sit level.  He's advised that one packer was in the rear springs was missing on side.  With new poly-bushes for the diff mounts these components ought all be good to go.

All in all then, steady progress and a positive report. 

Pete.

[Badwolf]

Pete - Please to hear this. You appear to be happier about the situation and the reports from M&T seem positive. I hope this continues to be the case.

[Bfg]

On 01/06/2021 at 15:39, Bfg said:

Update :

Last Wednesday I took TR Katie  across to M&T Classics, Wolverhampton, to leave the car there for a chassis swap.

. . .

For those who might be interested here are a few illustrations to explain what chassis mods I'm asking for (these being on top of the 'usual' stiffening mods carried out on these chassis such as boxing in open channels of the diff mounts and doubling up on the the front suspension's wishbone brackets) . . .

   

^  07 refers to a flat plate welded inbetween the flanges of the chassis rear legs.  The one shown was done by Malcolm in Australia, following the theory that this plate on edge is difficult to bend (in the vertical plane).  He used 9mm thick plate, and did this with body on from under the car.  Whereas I'm asking for 5 or 6mm plate ..but for that to be extended right the way to the back, so that I have something secure to bolt a towing hitch onto. 

^ Red numbers refer to various more-major mods (addendum to the standard TR4A chassis), whereas the yellow arrows indicate additional gusset plates.  Perhaps you can visualise the load paths I'm attempting to smooth-out diagonally across the car (01, 02, & 08), and then how the rear diff mounts being tied together at their tops (05 & 06) and gusseted at the bottom help create a longitudinal support bridge forward to the main chassis rails.  The TR6 body also mounts to the chassis via brackets (04). These were not fitted to the TR4A chassis but I feel are useful to link the body structure together with the chassis.  It looks a lot of work, but when the body is off it's not such a big job.  IMO the chassis design is a sad compromise without them, with one side of the car barely attached to the other.

Below  shows the standard chassis - which as you can see is not otherwise (structurally) joined between the front chassis cross-member and the 1.25mm thin pressed plate just forward of the diff  ..that's half the length of the car.!   And after that the chassis legs splay out and mostly rely on open channel-section bridges to join one side of the car to the other.  Bolted onto these bridges are not only the differential, with its torsional loading from the drive, but also the suspension springs and dampers.  The torsional load, just from the diff, is enough to tear the metal around its mounting studs (a very common failure).., so imagine if you might the chassis twist induced by one wheel going over a bump and the kinetic force through that suspension spring and damper.  There's little wonder that the early / sidescreen TR's and TR4 are preferred for race and rallying. Their chassis is clearly a more coherent design.

^ shown in green ; proposed 5 or 6mm thick jacking plates to be added, just where the car is usually lifted on a two poster or trolley jack.  I'll paint these to highlight them to garage mechanics and tyre fitters.!

It will be interesting !!! 

May the early summer sunshine fill your car with pleasant warmth and light.

Pete.    

What's presently happening ? . . .

^ viewed with the chassis inverted, showing the proposed modifications being tacked into place, and photos sent for my approval (or otherwise ) before they are welded in.

Those shown here are 1. the extended T-shirt ; to further attach one side main chassis rail to the other,  2. diagonal members ; to help prevent the trailing arm outrigger from twisting (which in turn stresses and accelerates corrosion in its end joints), 3. cross beams ; to halve span-lengths and better support the outrigger and sill body mounts. 

Fabricated from the same rail section as the main chassis rail, the extra 4ft or so of steel adds very little weight, but so configured adds an huge amount of rigidity.

^ In conjunction with those, on top of the main chassis rails, I'm having the t-shirt plate extended, so that the two main chassis rails have a base and top plate to boxed them in together.  The prop-shaft is above these top plates and so it is just the exhaust pipe, fuel and brake pipes which run through that tunnel.  Again this boxing in adds very little weight, but will tie one side of the car really well.  Albeit very ightweight, railway-bridge spans come to mind. 

^ Unlike the Tr6, the Tr4A has steel bridge piece, which also serves as the tail-end of the prop-shaft tunnel. This is positioned just forward of the forward diff-mount bridge / suspension spring-turret but was not originally attached to it.  I'm having a short folded plate welded inbetween those, so they are joined together at their top, and then two further folded plates to tie the forward & rear diff bridges together (NB. remember to check the diff fits on the pins before final welding !). 

Aside from the usual reinforcements around the diff mounting pins, the two diff bridges and their legs are being plated in on their underside. As you can see (bottom of photo, in black) the corner of the rear bridge is also gusseted to rear chassis legs.  This adds bracing in way of the lever arm dampers.. and together with the 4A's steel prop-shaft tunnel these plates provide a load path (with depth) from the main chassis rails over the diff mounts and then back down to each chassis rear leg, not only longitudinally but also torsionally. 

^ across the front beam, where trolley jack are usually placed to lift the front of the car has additional plating 4mm thick.  These on my own car was dented in from where jacks have been used without the protection of a wooden beam. 

There are other mods happening, but the corner gussets and jacking plates tacked-in-place were both too small and too thin for what I wanted. I've rejected those for similar but more substantial.  Mark is being very understanding, and when we last spoke was enjoying showing another customer my old chassis's cracks and how the car was driven in. 

I might only guess he thinks I'm a bit paranoid, but he's such a pleasant chap that he's happy to oblige my requests for these mods. 

Pete.  

[Bfg]

You ever looked at the works rally TR4's chassis ?

     

   

I don't know what gauge that under plate is but as it's welded I'm supposing it's steel.   Look closely and you'll see quite a few extra webs and stiffening ribs too. But yeah I guess mine will out there among the stiffer IRS chassis.  Suspension will be standard, but I'll seriously consider the telescopic rear damper option.  

I've supplied 2 ltrs of PoR-15 paint for the chassis, in silver.  And of course the chassis is to be clear wax injected with a product from Wurth when done.  If I have a structural problem I like to see it, and I have nothing to hide from the MOT man.  Black under a car is difficult, so silver / light grey or white is both a safety thing and a matter of convenience to me.

Pete.

[thescrapman]

Pete

 

POR-15 only really works on rusty metal, it doesn't stick to good metal, don't ask me how I (and others) found out. 😞

Might be OK on blasted steel as it will have a rough coat.

 

[Badwolf]

I have gone off POR-15. It has to put put on just right or it will come off in sheets. That means clean rough(ish) metal so it can grip and also make sure that any rust is treated/neutralised. I did use it under my bonnet and the longevity remains to be see but not again. I also used it on my garden gate. Two coats, applied as per spec, very carefully. The second coat is showing signs of peeling after 12 months. POR-15 paint is a 'marmite' product, you love it or hate it. I loved it in theory, not now. These days I would clean off, 2k prime, top coat and dinitrol under body wax, but everyone to their own favourites.

[Bfg]

Thanks Gents., Interesting ..and worrying.  I've not heard such reports before. nor have I had such experiences.  

I'll have to give it some thought.

Pete.

[Badwolf]

Pete - These are my thoughts with NO scientific proof. I think that the main problems are lack of adhesion due to the metal being too smooth and, the same old problem that I have had with standard primer, a microscopic layer of damp under the POR-15 which the paint does not absorb during the curing process and remains trapped causing the eventual peeling. If, of course, the sub-layer is roughened as I did with my bonnet (wire brush in the drill) and perfectly dry (painted mine on a warm sunny day outside) you might get good results. I must add that the petrol tank lining treatment gets very good reports but against requires the tank to be pre-treated and be perfectly dry or it does peel, from reports I have read.

[Paul H]

Im a big fan of POR15 But wouldn’t risk it on a chassis . For a chassis I use Bilthamber Electrox which is high zinc, then a top coating of your choice 

Paul 

[thescrapman]

The clue is in the name I guess. Paint Over Rust 15, it likes a rusty surface.

decent chassis paint over a good 2k primer perhaps?

[Badwolf]

I have a problem with painting over rust. Even when using POR-15, all the rust was removed as much as was possible, the area marine cleaned and metal prepped (using the recommended Frost products) and then given two coats applying the second coat as per the instructions on a warm dry day. The bonnet, I don't on know about yet but the second coat on the metal gate is starting to peel. It may, of course, be my application, but it was done as near to 'the book' as I could.

I was in the the Frost showroom as couple of years ago and looked at examples of all their products when I was thinking of using their top coat paint on the bodyshell. I decided to use the basic POR-15 black for areas out of sunlight and top coat this with the UV safe version where the sun would shine on it. There was something about the top coat which out me off it at the time, but I don't remember what it was. After reading various comments here and talking to people who had had problems I went off the paint, used up what I had, and went with 2k applied by roller due to lack of ppe.

[Paul H]

Only problem I had with POR15 was air bubbles , not sure what I did wrong 

Paul

[Bfg]

Thanks chaps, I'm not sure what to do now. I'll discuss your comments with Mark and review my options.   

- - -

I've just received an update from Mark at M&T Classics, who are doing my chassis mods.

  WARNING : If you're an ardent "originality" enthusiast or otherwise suffer from welding envy - you might want to look away.. 

 

    

^ checking the positions of the diff mounting studs before welding in both ends of the top braces.  Closing in of those webs yet to be done. 

    

^ Bracing the diff bridges together.    Additional gussets. ^^   

    

    

^ addition cross bracing support and diagonals, extended T-shirt plate and outside corner gusset / jacking plate.

 

    

^  Talking of jacking plates.

And then Malcolm's vertical web stiffening of the rear chassis legs . . .

    

^ starting inside the main chassis rails up, by the gearbox mount, and running right the way to the back (passed the cross tube of the silencer mount) to 40mm from the end. 

The cut short bottom of the 4A transmission tunnel bridge and diff mounting bridge will be reinstated and the webs of the diff mounting bridge will then be closed in. The front diff mounting bridge have also been closed in.

^ Top T-shirt plate will be assessed with respect to fitting pipes and exhaust within the tunnel.

And aside from the temporary WW1 camouflage., I don't think what I've asked for looks at all outrageous. 

What else can I say ?  ..but that I'm well impressed with both M&T's friendly service and their craftsmanship.

Pete.

 

[Badwolf]

At last. Something to get you smiling again.

[Badwolf]

On a different thread about work done on cars, I have just posted the question...who do you trust the do the work correctly? Pete, I think you have an answer in your neck of the woods. They may be expensive/reasonable/cheap, but it sounds like they are good and that you will be satisfied. If so, it will be a brilliant outcome for you and a great recommendation for the lads at M&T. I'm pleased for you.