That was a year that was..

[Russell1972]

Well done Peter, glad you finally got it sold. Your experience only goes to reinforce my mantra, of "never sell anything - just build more sheds"

Hopefully see you Tuesday.

[Bfg]

4 hours ago, Chris A said:

Does he realise an Ami 8 Super isn't a V8 ? 😁

Yes, I told him it's an ohc boxer engine ..so perhaps he's expecting a Porsche

[Bfg]

1 hour ago, Russell1972 said:

Well done Peter, glad you finally got it sold. Your experience only goes to reinforce my mantra, of "never sell anything - just build more sheds"

Hopefully see you Tuesday.

It was a hassle and the price was ' disappointing '   but at least I have US-dollars,  more space, and one less ' project ' to nag at me and keep me poor (and no I'm not talking about wife n' kids). 

I now have two beautiful motorcycles for sale  ...if you'd like to buy      Funds needed to pay for the TR's restoration.

Yes I hope / look forward to being there tomorrow evening.

Pete.

[Colin Lindsay]

5 hours ago, Bfg said:

Anyone else over here is just looking for 'a steal '.

 

Had a guy land in, out of the blue, two weeks ago looking to buy my TR7. All of the restoration work done so far counted for nothing; it's off the road with no MOT, has no rear axle, bodywork needs touching in and he wouldn't pay more than £500 for one in that state. He had the cheek to tell me that as someone who knows Triumphs I should have realised that. I wasted his time, apparently...

...so I hope your Ami has gone to a good home, as I did covet it... slightly....

 

[Bfg]

.

Sold, paid for, and ready for collection ..around 10 am this  morning.  Second person to view bought her without hesitation.

The significance of this is that this money goes straight into my Triumph TR4A restoration fund.  And the floor & shelf space, and 'project time' are all freed up.  

It's a beautiful motorcycle but I now feel a touring in a 4A will be more fun than clobbering up and riding a motorcycle long distance  

 

[dougbgt6]

Nice looking bike,  a wrench to let it go I guess, but I notice you have a spare in the corner. 

Getting a 4A, nice! We have one comes to East Berk, it's number plate is ATR4A 

Doug

[Bfg]

.

Hi all, not a lot of news on the American frontier, re. my buying Chance, as the seller continues to have a difficult year. 

Nevertheless undeterred I stride ..or trip over, forward and am now looking to buy a TR4A engine.  The plan is.. to rebuild or have that rebuilt through the winter months so that as and when I finally get the car it'll be a leap forward to getting her on the road.  I'll then have the car's original engine to rebuild at my longer-term convenience.  And then I'll sell whichever is 'spare'.   I recognise the risk in buying and rebuilding an engine before I even get a car,  but I'm prepared to commit to the TR4  ..and then also want things to happen next year rather than the year after.   So that's the plan, here's the engine I'm going to look at tomorrow.

 

This is the engine I'm looking to buy tomorrow, as a 4A engine. Seemingly with a hot climate six blade fan, and a side-screen car's rocker cover ?

This supposed to be a US import TR4A one.  Clearly it is to be rebuilt.  The question I'm faced with is this actually a TR4A engine or an earlier one with a high port head fitted ? 

From reading up - this is what I gleaned :

• 4A cyl head is slightly reworked to breather better with the later manifold, but this is not apparent from the outside.   Likewise the engine bore / capacity, compression ratio and camshaft profile are is not outwardly apparent.
• TR4 has steel push-rod tubes,  whereas the 4A has aluminium ones.  ( is this correct ? )
• starting handle dogs on the TR4, deleted on the 4A. (B.Piggot)
• the breather of the 4A is a closed system via a tube from the rocker cover to a PCV valve.  The TR4 has a pipe in the side of the crankcase, below the petrol pump. Later TR4 from CT14234 has a tube from the rocker cover to the air filters.  However a TR4 engine might have been fitted with a core plug - in which case you can't tell from that.
• TR4A inlet manifold (if original) has the triangles cast into the balance pipe, and the vacuum takeoff is not on such a large raised boss.  
• Exhaust manifold on the 4A went to 4 into 2 down-pipes.  TR4 has a single down-pipe.  (B.Piggot)
• Stromberg carbs were standard on the 4A until CT62191. thereafter SU were used.  Fuel pipe and throttle linkages changed with the carbs.  (B.Piggot)
• Flywheel is slimmer / lighter on the TR4
• clutch on TR4  is dry plate spring type, whereas the 4A has a diaphram clutch. (B.Piggot)  The clutch splines however are the same size.
• there is some difference (?) between how the camshaft or its seal is retained. 
• engine plates are the same on TR4 and 4A.  ?
• commissioning numbers : TR4 from CT1 to CT40304 (06/01/65).   and 4A were CTC 5001 to CTC78684 (10/06/67).  But were the engine and comission numbers the same ?

Are there any other visual indicators as to what this engine was  from ? 

Thanks,  Pete.

     

[Colin Lindsay]

7 hours ago, Bfg said:

.

Hi all, not a lot of news on the American frontier, re. my buying Chance, as the seller continues to have a difficult year. 

 

 

Usually a clear sign of me having a difficult year is me selling things, very quickly...!!

 

[Bfg]

.

Successfully viewed, purchased and collected today.

.

engine number is  CT564xxE so that would be a 4A  from mid-1965 (..I'm guessing).  This engine number is approx 2,660 later than Chance's commission number.   I gather about 40,253 TR4's  and 28,465 TR4A's were built, but I don't know how many of the 4A's were IRS cars rather than live axle. 

..all I need to do now is to figure out how to get it out of the back of my Chrysler Voyager.

 

[poppyman]

2 hours ago, Bfg said:

.

Successfully viewed, purchased and collected today.

.

..all I need to do now is to figure out how to get it out of the back of my Chrysler Voyager.

 

Drive off quickly with tailgate open Pete, that will work    Or do you have a B and D workmate to slide it on to or even a wheel barrow then it can be put where you need it.

Tony. 

[Bfg]

.

after the frost had gone this morning, I decided to tackle this.  My being on me own like - it went like this .  . .

^ Just because it would have been too easy on the flat n' level, let's at least make it an uphill struggle 

^ Then move the straps from being tied to the floor to being tied to the pallet.  Theory was that it would be more stable.    Whose idea was that ! ?

With blocks and lever the motor ascended to dizzie heights.  ..I'm not sure if Tutankhamun would have been proud of me or be turning in his Saatchi Gallery !

^ Part B of the plan was to move the engine onto my home adapted motorcycle lift.  That should take the weight shouldn't it    . . . .  shouldn't it ?? 

Shuffle., shuffle. 

Shuffle., shuffle.  some more.  

                            *Crack*  ..what was that ! ?

..can't go back now. 

Shuffle., shuffle.  some more.    Yeah !  Balance point 

^  duhh.,  that pallet is bending quite a bit .  .  .

 

^   Raving Success !!! 

The bike lift, now with this heavyweight TR4A engine, is on rollers, so easily moved to under the block n' tackle I use as an aide when removing my Sunbeam (motorcycle) engines. With that tensioned (as a safety steady for the engine) the side blocks and straps could be removed. And it's now at a decent height to work on.

I thought I could do get the engine out of the car on my own ..but of course one can never be 110% sure., and I'm darn sure it would hurt if I dropped it on my toe. !

 

[JohnD]

Nice handling, bfg!      You vehicle has the advantage of a no/low lip to.the rear bay, like my C5.      I had to do the same recently for a 2.5L engine.    My solution was less elegant!

Slide the engine down a stout plank into a wooden dolly, so I could get it into the garage and the RSJ that I hang my hoist on.   Thence into an engine stand for cleaning, back into a dolly for storage.  

 

[Bfg]

 

Thanks John,. I haven't got an engine lift nor a stand yet,  but with this weight of engine I guess it would be prudent to buy one. 

Talking about cleaning, I started into that for a couple of hours this afternoon. Just to scrape off the heavier crud and a first wipe down with home-mixed cleaning penetrating lube  ..so I might dismantle without that grit dropping inside. 

^ This is as was, and below is after getting my hands dirty.

Access to clean around the front cases was awkward and in any case I would need to removed the fan and pulley sometime soon, so I got on and did that. (NB. I am taking photos of their assembly order).  The water pump was seized but that freed off nicely with a squirt of penetrating oil and a little careful tapping.

I also mixed-up some penetrating fluid and poured that into each bore in the hope it might free the cylinders up.  The spark plugs were in very tight.  Three of them were Champion and the fourth was Esso branded.  And aside from being a bit sotty, all looking in half decent shape.  I hadn't realised they were short reach plugs. 

^ so that was the heavy crud off the outside.  Mind you the black sludge deposits on the rockers (below) indicate a prior owner(s) ran the car on negligible budget...

I'd removed the rocker cover and so aware of this before I bought the engine, so it wasn't a surprise.  Despite the oil sludge (which oddly looks blue-grey in this flash photograph)  I'm pleased that (aside from the rocker cover studs) its all there and the adjusters aren't all chewed up, from having been adjusted with a pipe wrench !    Still, I would not be surprised if the bearing journals were scored and very worn.  Hey-ho it is some 54 years old and from a car which was most likely a fun ride for at least one generation of student.  The forward-most manifold stud has been sheared off but there's a good amount of shank to get grips onto.   Cylinder#2 is on its exhaust and #4  inlet is open. Their pistons are 1/4 the way down the barrels, and their piston crowns can be seen through the spark plug holes. Conversely #1 & #3 are 3/4 of the way down so are out of sight. But poking around with a bit of wire through the spark plug holes #3 piston crown feels very lumpy ..which is not what i might have expected.  I wonder if there's a hole through it ?        

There's still oil in the sump so I couldn't turn the engine on its side yet.  So I guess the next task will be to remove the oil filter, drain the oil and lift the block off the sump. Then we'll see if there are any horrors lurking in the slimy darkness.  But I'll not be doing that tonight.

Pete.

[Bfg]

.

Sunday, so I'm just pottering, but I wanted to see if my home-brew penetrating oil had worked any ..to free up this seized engine.

I started off by releasing the rocker / tappet adjusters ..to minimise as much resistance as I could.  And then scratch marked the flywheel mounting flange so that I might see any movement relative to the rear-main bearing cap bolt head. 

   

Using two long and two short extension bars from 1/2" drive socket sets for leverage  on the flywheel mounting bolts  (..so what that ; 70cm (28") ..I struggled.

Trying to do this and hold the engine upright isn't very easy on your own.   Working back n' forth from one side of the engine to the other with no movement whatsoever, I then heard a gentle thud.  It was barely discernibly, which I wouldn't have heard if the radio had been on.  Did I break something ? 

Not sure., but the mark appeared to have just moved a tiny amount  ..perhaps 1/2 mm I couldn't be sure.     I continued working one way and then the other, tiny thud to tiny ..it wasn't going very far ..just that 1/2mm.    No hang on that time it was a whole mm  !   Back n' forth, around the bike lift, I could now get the mark to move 1mm each time. And then the mark jumped 3mm (1/8").   whoppie  !     ..but it then locked up in that position  

So with my considerable weight bearing down upon the end of the lever ..  Yeah !    ..It moved back 1/2mm.  Working again, much back n' forth to get leverage and yet hold the engine up .. 1/2mm  movement .. then 1mm ..and then aargh .. I thought an extension bar had broken. The four pieces clattered to the floor.

But no it was  eureka !   it wasn't yet free but the crank had turned perhaps 20 degrees.   Then it was just a matter of working that around and back again.  There was pop sound as a valve opened opened or perhaps closed (?) for the first time in numerous years. And then another. In short time I got the crank to turn 360 degrees. You could hear the surface rust being scraped off a rear cylinder bore (most likely #3).  And then as if a spit of disgust, my penetrating fluid splurted out of #4 cylinder exhaust port.  Ha, I side-stepped just in time !   I steadily worked the crank around until I had seen each of the tappets dip their head in reverence to the lever bar.   Job done, as it became easier and freer with every turn.        

I added some more penetrating fluid, and am now leaving that to soak through the piston rings. 

It only took an hour but I feel it was a good days work. I'm well chuffed.

It might all still need replacing, but being free does make dismantling things so very much easier.

Pete.

 

[Colin Lindsay]

Good man! You'll be able to sit down later and celebrate in the quiet satisfaction of a job well done. i'm working on a broken stud in the block that won't budge so if successful, that's what I'll be doing. And probably nursing my aching back.

[Bfg]

^ Thanks,  It doesn't take a lot to please me ..so I've already sat down and quietly very glad.   

I know buying a seized engine could have been a bear to wrestle long and hard with. 

 

Broken studs.,  what's the technique ?   I have a few of those to deal with, one is the forward manifold stud into the head, and then there's all three studs to the down-pipe in the exhaust manifold.

[poppyman]

After all that i expect you will be relaxing with a wry smile of satisfaction on your face Pete   well done, if you have some diesel or heating oil? that works well in the bores.

Tony. 

[Bfg]

Thanks Tony.  not so much a wry smile of satisfaction as happily thankful.  

I didn't think to use heating oil - good idea (but for it being stinky).  Instead  I use 50/50 mix of synthetic engine oil (summer grade / recycled) with petrol (starting to go stale stuff)  ..shaken not stirred !    'cause I 'av style.    Similarly I use a 25/75 mix of the same for cleaning the engine down. The petrol is the solvent and then evaporates away. And the residue oil defers surface rusting.  Of course it also quietly works away as penetrating oil in any exposed threads.    

Pete.

[Colin Lindsay]

20 hours ago, Bfg said:

Broken studs.,  what's the technique ?   I have a few of those to deal with, one is the forward manifold stud into the head, and then there's all three studs to the down-pipe in the exhaust manifold.

Lots of frustration followed by lots of worry.

BEFORE you start anything with them, heat and penetrating oil once cool again, and leave for as long as you can, to soak. Sometimes tightening them slightly, as opposed to trying to unscrew them, can break the seal. It all depends on whether you have enough to get a grip on, with a stud puller or the like, but they may just break further down. I've never had any luck with the 'screw-in' type of stud remover, usually they break in the stud and cause more bother.

I broke one on Saturday on the Herald block, the top stud for the timing chain cover, and had to drill it out - a very small drill for a pilot hole, as central as possible, then progressively bigger and the theory is that as the stud becomes thinner it will distort and 'peel away' from the sides. it didn't work with mine so I had to drill right through and practically drill the hole out over a period of hours until at least I could get a tap down in and rethread the hole; this caused the last of the stud to fall out on the inside. Of course this is one that goes right through into the water jacket so I'm now worried that although it feels tight enough it may leak once the engine reaches full temperature. I'll have to watch that one.

 

[Bfg]

Thanks Colin.

Yesterday I thought to spend a few minutes soaking them in my penetrating oil mix.  That into the cylinder head I wrapped tissue around and applied the oil/petrol mix to that. .

^ with my not having oxy-acetylene., I'm not sure any heat I might apply from a blow-torch will make much difference.  The cast iron is such a huge heat sink and the ambient temperature in my garage is so low.  It is the cylinder head I'd need to heat and expand, not the stud fitting into the hole.  However I can weld a nut onto the remains of the stud which ought to give me more to grip to turn.

For the manifold, I've been soaking that in my oil/petrol mix over night. . .

in the first instance I can get the remains of those studs in vice to grip and try to turn them. otherwise I will again try welding nuts onto them.  The blowtorch on the flange might help with this size of part.  

I'll let you know how I get on.

Pete.

[Bfg]

. . spending money like it's going out of fashion  ..

I must be getting old and suddenly consciously aware of just how easily an engine of this weight falling over might put me out of action for months, if not do more serious damage.  A crushed foot or hand even sounds painful !   ..when did I become less than a young fool ?  

I guess my aluminium motorcycle engines just never presented such a risk.   So for £37.67 including 48 hour delivery . . .

SwitZer Transmission / Engine support Stand 1000lbs / 450kg  < here  > .

I have a welder so might add a few bits. I think it'll be strong enough but sometimes a little extra bracing for stiffness is useful. And I'd like to add some sort of brakes.

I'll let you know how well it works. 

P.

[Bfg]

Handling this safely got me thinking.

ok., it more spending.. but just in case I need it to lift this motor onto the stand,  but also something I was going to buy for my boat (for raising / lowering its mast).  

1200lb winch using webbing for £16.35  < here >

I considered half a tonne (545kg) was about as strong as anything (roof beam or boat) that I might attach it to, so why buy heavier duty.?   And I chose the webbing because I prefer the feel when handling it and it won't scuff across the boat deck the same as wire does.  Nor will it corrode.

Again I'll let you know how I get on with it.  

Pete

[Bfg]

.

This afternoon I set about tackling those sheared off manifolds studs in the head, and in the exhaust manifold itself.  I thought I had one sheared off in the head and the three in in the exhaust manifold where the down-pipe clamps to it.  In fact I found another in the head which had sheared off just proud of its hole (mostly hidden in the old gasket).  

24 hours soaking in penetrating fluid, and my attempt to remove the longer sheared off studs failed.,  with three out of the four shearing off just inside their holes. Just one came out,  so the others needed to be drilled . .

^ Buckling down., starting off with a centre punch and then a small drill ..constantly checking that was going in perpendicular to the surface.  

Similarly with those sheared off in the cylinder head (below) ..

 

^ ..this is the other one I found after scraping the old gasket away.

 

Looking on the positive side...  drilling out all four sheared off studs at once wasn't so bad - as I already had the right size of drill bit in the cordless. 

^ all studs were first drilled through with a 1.5mm bit,  and then the sequence was ;  3.5,   5mm,   6.5,    7   and  7.5mm.  The latter being the largest hole without cutting into the original threads. 

Of course,  the previous smaller hole drilled through the stud guided the next drill size up, so helped keep things central to the hole - but as a visual guide to each drilling I eyed up the drill parallel to another stud I'd screwed into the good hole.

^ Drilled with 7.5mm.  I had hoped to be able to prise the remain stud (thread coil) out of the hole,  but it didn't want to play nicely.  So I had to tap each hole out again.

Thankfully the tap bit into the original thread so it was just the old stud being cut out.  Btw. each is a  3/8" Whitworth thread.

 

The same was done with the sheared off studs in the cylinder head.  . .

Naturally I ran the tap into all the other holes just to clean them out. 

I'm pleased.. The task (try to remove four studs, only one of which came out, and to drill out four studs and clean their threads out) took 4-hours this afternoon, so not nearly as bad as it might have been.  I'm glad not to be paying someone £50/hr + VAT to do them.!      

I now have just the one, rear-most original manifold stud, that will have to come out.  I'm expecting it to shear off, which is why I didn't do it today (..I used it as a visual guide for my drilling square into the block).  

Pete. 

 

[JohnD]

Well done, BF, nicely done! 

I've been lucky so far, almost never had a broken stud.    When I do, I'll try the lefthanded drill technique, whih can avoid the risk of damaging the hole threads if your drilling isn't exactly central.  Anyone else tried it?

 

[Bfg]

^ I'd not seen one of those LH drills before, only stud extractors.  But I guess it could only work in one's favour.  I'd probably have to use a mains' power drill because the hand torque chuck on the cordless has an annoyance of coming loose in that direction. That's not really an issue, just an annoyance.  These studs seemed really quite studdorn (if you excuse m' pun ! ),  but then with the extreme of exhaust manifold heat cycles, over five decades, I guess it's not surprising they were corroded in.  

I'll buy a couple of sizes of those LH drills  next time I'm at the tool supplies, just to hold in stock and try next time I have an issue. I think they're worth a try.  Thanks.