That was a year that was..

[JohnD]

It's that heat cycling that welds the studs in, but also the but to the stud, so excess force to remove snaps the stud.      I always use bronze nuts for this application.   Maybe that's why I don't snap any!

 

[Bfg]

^ yes brass manifold nuts on the Sunbeam.  The cyl.head's aluminium so no issues there either.

 

I manage to steal another couple of hours away ..into the garage this afternoon.  It was chilly cool but a little more progress was made  ..and that was even in the right direction !

^ I started off with wrestling with the last, rearmost manifold stud.  It was *rather* tight !  I had been forewarned this stud goes through to collide with the rear RH cyl.head stud (the one which is missing) ..so anticipated its thread would be damaged inside.  I was not disappointed, but with the cyl.head stud out the way I managed to free the exhaust stud by going inwards. I'm sure the big hammer helped rattle any rust on the threads too !   Thereafter it was a matter of carefully back and forth reshaping its damaged thread (inside the cylinder head stud hole) back into its tapped hole.  It took a time but we won. 

Very kindly the seller of the engine gave me a cylinder head stud, so after cleaning out it's hole of crud - I then proceeded to fit that. .

 

^ fitting the cylinder head stud took a fair amount of back n' forthing to clean out and reshape the threads, but again - Success. 

^ It's starting to look like a complete engine.   Tbh.,  This engine is built like the Forth Road Bridge, there's nothing lightweight, sporting or finite engineered about its construction. 

I happened to find the 7/16" Whitworth studs are much the same size as used on my 1950's Sunbeam motorcycles (where they are used as cylinder head bolts !). These are a tad too long in their threads so I'll have to trim them off to suit, but I reckon even used Sunbeam ones would be fine to simply hold the manifolds on with.   

And the other end had 7/16" BSF threads so that'll be odd, because the Triumph appears to generally use UNF threads.    Ding !  that triggers a thought..  If I recall (some ?) Whitworth sizes correspond to UNC threads.  So perhaps that's what the Triumph holes are tapped for., UNC to go with their UNF ?

^^ I also found a screw adapter to go into the water heater hole in the block.  Funny things I keep over the years.  No idea where it came from but it may have been off the TR4 I part restored in the early 90's.  It doesn't do anything but raise the hole from the block to 2" above it, but it looks more complete.  More importantly it tells me the exact tapered thread size for when I go shopping for the correct fitting.

 

Moving on .. to the other side of the engine. .

^ Oil filter removed, and the clutch slave cylinder tie bar, and to drain the black crude oil.

That square-head drain plug had me wondering because it's a 7/16" size spanner and it wasn't going to shift without chewing things up (both the jaws on a lightweight spanner and the square peg).  So instead I used my biggest adjustable spanner (which has wide jaws) and hammered that on as an interference fit and then with a two-foot extension bar ..and at the same time hammering onto the end of the square peg,  it came loose surprisingly easily (and undamaged).  So more success.  This is becoming a nice habit. !

Tonight at the Sorrel Horse, Barham is the local TSSC club night.  So that's it I'm off to have a beer.

I bid you a good evening. 

Pete.

[JohnD]

Isn't brass a bit soft?

J.

[Bfg]

. 

Brass and bronze are both alloys of Copper.  Brass has zinc as the principle alloy,  whereas bronze has tin as its.   Of course bronze is also made as composite with manganese, with nickel, with silicon, with aluminium, or with a combination of the above and other compounds, dependent on what properties are required.   Each are generic names for a family of copper alloys - and their percentage of the composition varies.  Indeed white-manganese-bronze has a good percentage of zinc in it ..so is almost a brass,  but the term 'brass' or 'bronze' is related to the  principle  alloy ..which in this particular case is manganese.

Brass has been used for centuries for items which require strength, such as ;  hinges,  handles,  coat hooks,  valves,  rivets,  screws,  nails and pins,  buckles,  bearing surfaces,  boat fittings like fairleads and cleats, turning-blocks and the so forth.  It is also used structurally in brazing and numerous tiny set screws, together with their nuts and washers.  It's an extremely useful material which is nice for fine machining forging or casting.  Bronze is very similar,  but does tend to be more expensive. It is also deservedly renown for its high resistance to (immersed) salt water corrosion.  

Pete.

[Bfg]

^ oh yes brass is also well known to contain explosions ..not only small caliber bullets and cartridges but some pretty big shell cases.  I remember my grandparents had a pair of three or four inch diameter ones decorating the hearth in their 'front room'  which from the first world war.  

[Dick Twitchen]

1 hour ago, Bfg said:

oh yes brass is also well known to contain explosions

Gunnery Officer speaking and yes they do.  The key is that they swell slightly when ignited; the breech block stops the round going 'backwards' and the detonation causes obduration which seals the case against the chamber wall and the shell leaves the barrel, in the case of a naval 4.52 gun at 2,350 ft per sec.  The case quickly returns to size after firing thus allowing extraction and ejection.

Dick 

[JohnD]

Your last point doesn't help your case, BFG, as the shell case when the propellant is fired is enclosed in the steel breech of the gun, or rifle.

And I would suggest that all the applications you present include a decorative need, and polished brass is most attractive!     But for an application where corrosion resistance is needed, and hardness so that a nut may be torqued tight, I think bronze wins.   Sad to report, they are hard to find, these days, in the right size and thread for manifold nuts.

JOhn

PS Ah! An expert has got in first!   I'm interested to hear from Dick that the shell case swells, but not beyond yield, so 'deflates' again!  Never knew that before!   And intrigued by the gunnery use of the word "obdurate", which is otherwise defined as " refusing to change one's opinion or course of action", in politics or directing a shell!  J.

[poppyman]

I know where i would be aiming a shell.!!  

Tony.

[Colin Lindsay]

Try aiming the gun, the shell usually follows in the same direction...

[mark powell]

Thread drift....

My late stepfather was a midshipman during the 1st World War. Being of small build , he was the one who was pushed up the breech of a large calibre gun to pull out any misfired cordite bags...  After a suitable time delay of course!

He later went on to be commander at Whale Island.   Deaf as a post .

[Colin Lindsay]

My uncle was a human cannonball. Not very good, either. He got fired.

[Dick Twitchen]

18 hours ago, JohnD said:

gunnery use of the word "obdurate"

John, well spotted should have typed 'obturation'!

 

14 hours ago, mark powell said:

commander at Whale Island.   Deaf as a post .

A fine establishment in 1974 on my Master Gunner's qualifying course, but only if you were of that persuasion.  In those days we still wore full uniform with stiff collars, boots and black patent leather gaiters (presented on qualifying at the same time as a whistle on a chain (it's a gunnery drill thing!) and a pace stick.  Deafness was normal, ear defenders were for wimps,  and the noise level in the Wardroom bar horrendous!

[mark powell]

2 hours ago, Dick Twitchen said:

John, well spotted should have typed 'obturation'!

 

A fine establishment in 1974 on my Master Gunner's qualifying course, but only if you were of that persuasion.  In those days we still wore full uniform with stiff collars, boots and black patent leather gaiters (presented on qualifying at the same time as a whistle on a chain (it's a gunnery drill thing!) and a pace stick.  Deafness was normal, ear defenders were for wimps,  and the noise level in the Wardroom bar horrendous!

I was mis-informed, he served at HMS Excellent between the wars, experimental department, but not commander...    

[Bfg]

10 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

My uncle was a human cannonball. Not very good, either. He got fired.

Thank you Colin, humour of that calibre is scraping the barrel. Consider yourself, along with your uncle, formal discharged.

As for the rest of you, let's avoid this thread drift. 5 degrees to your right please gunner.

[JohnD]

Excuse me then, BFG, for replying to Dick, for whom my comment was not critical, let alone pedantry!      I admire the English language unreservedly for its flexibility and adaptability, and I thought that "obdurate" was a splendid word to adopt to describe the shell case, refusing to change its position in the breech, instead sending the shell on its way.   Gosh, the Royal Navy is famous for its salty slang and jargon, but this is Johnsonian!   "Obturate", to block, lacks the same finesse, as it is just too accurate!

And, if I may further digress, I bought for Guy Fawkes Night some "Fiery Ginger Beer", and joked to my family that we should make gin and ginger beer mixers, instead of G&T.     I have since leant that this IS a drink, and it's called a "Master Gunner"!    Very nice too, but the ginger beer must be really Fiery!

J.

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Bfg said:

Thank you Colin, humour of that calibre is scraping the barrel. Consider yourself, along with your uncle, formal discharged.

As for the rest of you, let's avoid this thread drift. 5 degrees to your right please gunner.

Ok consider my thoughts from now on trained fore and aft.

[Bfg]

.

parcels arrived ..early Christmas an all

^ yesterday,  a day or two earlier than expected from HandyStraps..   

I'll mount that onto a plate with an eye on it's end, and I'll pull the side cover off to grease the gears before use. . then I'll see if it it works hanging from the roof beam in my garage.

 

And then today  . .

^  The engine stand, half a day later than the "48 hour delivery" might have implied, but still within reason.  

Yesterday I looked on line to see how to attach an engine to one of these, as I'd never done this before.  And then took myself off to Suffolk Fasteners to buy an assortment of bolts I might need.  I had to guesstimate the length I'd need,  so today we'll see if what I have will do. 

 

In the meantime, I got back from the TSSC club night on Tuesday, where aside from other things a friend (who's a bit of a Del boy) from the TR group was talking to someone else about having missed a few worthwhile purchases by asking questions first, and then before he even gets an answer someone else has got in there and bought the item. He was saying how he now tends to take a risk on the item's condition and buys first and asks questions thereafter..   

Well, on getting in on that chilly cold evening, I happened to spot a pair of 1966 Alfin style rear brake drums, for sale, to fit the TR4A - TR6.  There was no photo but then they were also not a lot of money.  I knew Alfin made different styles but I didn't know what these were,  never-the-less they are described as being from the right era ..as my intended car is from 1965 - I thought they can't be too wrong.  At 11pm I wasn't going to find out which particular type they were - but I followed the message of what I'd overheard just an hour before, and dropped the seller an email to say I'd happily buy them as long "as they are reusable even if a little refacing is required"

 

I guess I was the first, as yesterday morning he sent me a few piccies and offered them to me. I've agreed to buy.  So now all I have to do is to get them from Berkshire to Suffolk.

Lots of nice toys ! 

This now means ; I have bought a set of original steel wheels, their hubcaps, a pair of seats, a steel gearbox cover,  a bit of a dashboard, an alloy rocker cover, then an engine, and now rear brake drums - but not yet the car itself.  Am I doing something wrong here ?  

 

[JohnD]

 

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Bfg said:

^  The engine stand, half a day later than the "48 hour delivery" might have implied, but still within reason.  

Yesterday I looked on line to see how to attach an engine to one of these, as I'd never done this before. 

Yes, that's one thing that nobody ever explains. I attached the first engine I ever worked on with long pieces of threaded rod and a nut on the end over a HUGE washer... it didn't fall off but I'm sure it looked very amateurish.

[JohnD]

4 hours ago, Bfg said:

.

parcels arrived ..early Christmas an all

^ yesterday,  a day or two earlier than expected from HandyStraps..   

I'll mount that onto a plate with an eye on it's end, and I'll pull the side cover off to grease the gears before use. . then I'll see if it it works hanging from the roof beam in my garage.

BFG,

Tha looks awfully like the winch I have on my trailer, to load my car if it can't do so under its own power.    It's well capable of pulling it on, and has a ratchet so you can rest if you get tired.   But if the car needs to lowered from the trailer, tthe ratchet must be disconnected, and the car lowered under the control of your own strength and endurance.    Let go, and it runs away.       If that is how your engine hoist works, that's not very safe, especially as the ratchet has to be disconnected with the load off it, and on your hand.

If I may, a style of hoist that is much safer is the lever hoist, like this:

Lifting OR lowering is done by pumping the big lever.    The little lever switch determines in which direction the load goes.     It cannot run away.

The other 'essential' bit of kit is the load leveller:

No need to lower the load and fiddle with the sling to get it sloped correctly, for fitting, or mounting on a stand.

John

[Colin Lindsay]

16 hours ago, JohnD said:

 But if the car needs to lowered from the trailer, tthe ratchet must be disconnected, and the car lowered under the control of your own strength and endurance.    Let go, and it runs away.       If that is how your engine hoist works, that's not very safe, especially as the ratchet has to be disconnected with the load off it, and on your hand.

I have two winches, a huge one that would raise the Titanic with massive chains, but when you want to lower it you must hold a small lever back and then rotate the handle against the weight; it can be fiddly especially as the girder it's on is about ten feet up. If you flick the lever and don't hold the handle it will just drop straight to the floor.

The other is a lighter version I bought at Stoneleigh for about a tenner, but it's got an internal brake, and you must pull the chain in the opposite direction to lower. It can be nerve wracking sometimes; when I lifted the Herald engine and gearbox out of the car last week and it was suspended eight feet off the ground, it wouldn't lower, only raise, and therefore kept getting higher, and higher...... you really do have to yank on the chain and then it comes free, and you can lower it. 

Last Herald engine I worked on - prior to the current one - I bolted the backplate to the stand, but as I was using an alloy replacement I wasn't worried about distortion.

[JohnD]

Ah!  It's ona stand!    I thought for a moment that you had snapped it in mid fall!

J.

[Bfg]

.

Yesterday was not so productive, in terms getting on with the engine itself, but I did get the winch set up and also a first arrangement of the engine stand. .

I removed the covers off the winch and greases the gears inside. As expected they were bone dry.  And I drilled a piece of flat bar which I through-bolted to the base of the winch. This is plenty long enough for the handle to turn, however with the weight of this lump it bends so I think I'll make another from a more robust length of steel.   

The hook on the winch's strap I clipped onto the rope I have around the garage roof beam ..so the winch goes up n' down with the engine. This means that they are always in close reach of each other.  The garage roof beams are 5-1/2" x 3" timber, but as this engine lift is midway to its span - I cut a 3" x 3" timber prop to place under it.  I don't know how much the beam would have bowed under that sort of weight but I had left 1/8" between the end of the prop and the beam ..and when the engine was lifted - that prop was in tight.  

I tentatively lifted the engine, just taking the weight ..with the motorcycle lift still under it.  Then lowered it and adjusted the position of strop attached to the engine to better adjust to its centre of gravity (so the engine lifted up squarely.  The winch's inside ratchet clicks as it goes up, and holds that engine's position without the need to activate a locking latch.  Turn the handle the other way and it slowly comes down again.  I don't know how it works because there's no ratchet lever to release ..but it does work. 

I tried again and decided to relocate the wire strop, where I had fastened it to the bellhousing end of the engine. I used a block of wood to hold the wire away from the cylinder head.  Setting these things up for the first time takes a fair amount of fiddling around ..but hopefully will be easily / quickly repeatable next time it's used.

^ Fraction of inch at a time I tested it, up and down, allowing the winches strap to slip tight around its drum. I left it for a while (as I was greasing the castors and assembling the engine stand) just to check that the winch wasn't slowly loosening on its own.  It wasn't.   In time and after a few more lifts and lowerings,  I felt a little more confident and so removed the transport pallet out of the way.  Success.!

 

With the castors greased the engine stand was then assembled. I must admit I'm pleased with the apparent quality of this very inexpensive  stand.   There are x3 through-bolts at the upright to base joint,  but only one of those secures the socketed forward extension to the castored wheels ..so I reckon (when the stand is not being used) I could pull that out and then the two parts will lay flat for storage.  

I checked the rotisserie spindle in the tube, as I'd read that sometimes there can be a burr from the holes being drilled. These were fine, and the holes locking pin holes all aligned, so I greased the spindle and its tube.

I had looked on-line how these stands are usually attached to the engine around the gearbox mounting flange.  But surely that would make turning the engine over (crank, pistons, etc) really difficult ?  I'd like to get to that end of the engine to turn the crank via its flywheel ..or at least its fixing bolts.  I also seemed to recall reading that with the stand mounted on that end makes removing the rear main-bearing awkward, and sometimes impossible. 

I had seen on an American website and here on the TR forum where engines had been mounted from their side. That made more sense to me, not least because the engine's weight (frightfully massive to me !) is  lesser cantilevered so far out from the stand.   The LH side of the 4-cyl engine is lumpy.  It has a ridge for the camshaft half way down the block and a sizeable lump of casting poking out where the distributor is fitted.  Where the oil filter and the petrol pump were fixed would provide good places to bolt the stand to, but there is nowhere below this and the only place above them were the two small holes intended just to mount the ignition coil.  The engine's weight partly hanging on such a small fastening might be theoretically plausible ..but to me would be a worry.       

Ok I thought - the RHS of the engine then.  That's reasonably flat, but is of limited use ..if the cylinder head needs to be removed ..because the stand's top fixing brackets go onto where the manifolds bolt. That side's lower fastenings are where the dynamo bracket fit at the front, and the drain tap for the water jacket at the rear. These  have a decent size boss so also ought to be plenty strong enough.  So with four good places to bolt to - it's where I chose to do it.   There is another issue though.. if one wishes to spin the engine over, because (..on this stand) the turning one way - the starter motor mounting would interfere with the stand's upright leg.  And turning the other way - the front the engine mount plate likewise sticks out. 

^ taking the engine's weight for the first time. The stand's upright leg is just 1/2" clear of the sump flange, so the engine's weight is least cantilevered. 

^ The base of the stand is not bending, what is seen above is distortion from the camera lens. Indeed this stand feels very sturdy with or without the engine on it, and the balance point I chose is (so far) good.  However the engine can only be rotated to this (above) angle in either direction before the stand's leg fouls the engine mounting plate or the starter motor housing.  It needs to go out 3" (75mm) or thereabouts to clear.  The rotisserie spindle is 6-3/8" long (160mm) so with it pulled out to clear the front engine mount, there would still be 3-3/8" (85mm) of the spindle in the tube.  I won't need to fully rotate the engine very often, so later today I'll see if doing this, with the winch as a security line, is (safely) feasible.  

Hey, I can always reattach the stand elsewhere if it doesn't work out, or if I wish to remove the cylinder head.   But in the meantime, this position gives me good access to turn the crankshaft, the front end of the engine including the cam-chain cover, and of course the rockers and the LHS of the engine (distributor, oil filter, fuel pump, etc.).  The sump can be dropped ..and at 45 degrees either way - I'll have reasonably decent access under the engine.  It seems that wherever these stands are mounted will be a compromise to something.

As I say I've never used one of these engine stands before, and I find the weight of this cast iron engine rather intimidating, so I'll take things at my own slow pace as I learn. 

Pete.

p.s. the flywheel supplied with the engine is the wrong one. Its pcd is 2-1/4" and the flywheel mounting appears to be 3-1/4".  I've called the seller and he'll check what's what and let me know.

[Colin Lindsay]

Remember that the entire thing is dependant on the weakest link! What's the strap that the winch appears to be hanging from?

I had a metal bracket made up a few years back (the benefits of having Engineers as in-laws) and it's a slight bit small for this beam in the new garage but still clamps tightly to the H-bar. I still worry about using ropes rather than chains around the block to hook to. You can see the size of the links in the older chain hoist I used to use; you need muscles like Arnie's to even lift it up to the clamp on the beam.

  

 

 

[Bfg]

^ valid point Colin.  The rope I'm using over timber roof beam is 10mm polypropylene which has a rated breaking strain of 1400kg.  From the information I've read and my own estimate, I reckon this motor weighs in around 200kg.

What a nice clean garage ceiling you have !