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a little more this afternoon. Starting with spinning the prop  ..oh OK.,  the engine.

P1330004s.thumb.jpg.b51bdb5c02f2825af2808829eba4efaa.jpg

^ with the winch slid back along the strop rearward - Take the weight of the engine on the winch. Pull the spindle part way out of the stand (..it's still in the tube by over 3",  but I have a scaffolding pole in there just in case the winch should fail).

P1330006s.thumb.jpg.b7bd6870d9eab6df8a2cdf82b734063b.jpg

^ lift it a little higher ..so the stand is lifted, a couple of inches off the floor, and rotate the stand under and passed the front engine mount bracket. Stuff a rag in there to prevent it scratching the stand.  And then gently lower the winch.

P1330007s.thumb.jpg.716d862581dc0fb5c42c3ac723bbc0ec.jpg

^ with the engine hanging front end down - push the spindle back into the tube. And lower the winch.  It's simple but a little nerve wracking first time around and with equipment I don't yet trust. 

I didn't rotate the engine further than this ..because the sump, although drained of oil, has not been cleaned out of its sludge.  And I didn't want that gunge up inside the block.  However at the moment I cannot see why it shouldn't now fully invert - on the stand.

Turning the engine back upright is the same operation ..in reverse.

It worked fine but I think I'll extend the length of this (60mm dia.) spindle another 50mm in length ..and add a couple of safety pins. Then it will just be a matter of sliding the spindle out along its tube, turning the engine, and then pushing the spindle back into the tube (ie. normal position).  

Although I can't remove the cylinder head with the engine stand mounted onto the side ..all in all - I'm happy with it being like this. 

 

Now back to work .

When the engine was on end I took the opportunity to just slightly loosened all the sump bolts.  So then, with the engine back upright on its stand, but canted to 45 degrees . . .

P1330009s.thumb.jpg.c23bf7fe856eeb53c46e54b7b5fe1d3d.jpg

^ bolts out and straight into a jar of old petrol ..to clean them.

P1330010s.thumb.jpg.77c6f502abced175df7a70677f84b647.jpg

P1330012s.thumb.jpg.fad87bd976e540bcf59e1891d82f9309.jpg

P1330013s.thumb.jpg.446efbbb074e2d6c127fbafc5fabff8f.jpg

I reckon that reddish colour is the penetrating fluid I put into the bores. It's leaked passed the piston rings. 

 

Otherwise yuk in the bottom of the pan. Black sludge with white metal by the look of it.  BUT., there are no nasty hard chunks !   Yippee !

P1330017as.jpg.0a0bbca4a746e8770dbaef2521d3169b.jpg

^ a pair of disposable plastic gloves, half an hour with a scraper to get out the heavier deposits, 1/2 pint of old petrol,  a dozen paper towels ..and both inside and out is clean enough to handle . 

That's the progress I wanted to make.  And I'm really chuffed there's no nasty surprises (no big bits) in the sump.  

I also replaced the link from the winch to the lifting strop with a piece of 6 x 50mm flat bar.  So all in all ..a good afternoon's work.

Pete

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16 hours ago, Bfg said:

The rope I'm using over timber roof beam is 10mm polypropylene which has a rated breaking strain of 1400kg.  

What a nice clean garage ceiling you have !

That will do the job!

Thanks for the comment on the ceiling, I'm helped by the fact that dirt travels downwards!  I've got a bad back so you should see the state of the floor.

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Ok, first thing first.,  Let's change things !

P1330025s.thumb.jpg.e4274bd9361f2a4cc2129348447c1784.jpg

^ My landlord had a scrap piece of 60mm dia steel tube, and kindly cut off a 60mm length for my needs. I cleaned it up (heavy build up of paints over rust) and welded it as an extension to the engine stand's rotisserie spindle. 

P1330028s.thumb.jpg.0b8ca8c487bec62f6419512c405ce3f6.jpg

^ now with the weld finished flat and the spindle greased - the engine can be pulled a little way out of the socket so its front engine mount clears the stand's upright. 

Success !  I can turn the engine over (safely) on the rotisserie spindle without needing the winch.  It's handy that it holds the engine at any angle without needing the lock-pin.

 

So., back to business . . .

P1320828s.thumb.jpg.f18836b32495cc080bc6efe4f1baf5cf.jpg

^ this is as bought.  

But now that I can easily turn the engine on end and upside down, so the muck doesn't all go inside as I scrub it out  ..this is now where we're at (below) . .

P1330035s.thumb.jpg.2b040d874e5c38d5f5df9e2144f5be7e.jpg      P1330036as.thumb.jpg.c0fb573b5a349ee038a6fb0f94aa2107.jpg

Perhaps it doesn't look very different, but the filth that came off it was something else.! 

That's enough for tonight.
Pete.

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On 01/12/2019 at 14:55, Bfg said:

Sunday, so I'm just pottering, but I wanted to see if my home-brew penetrating oil had worked any ..to free up this seized engine.

oh  that was last weekend. Doesn't time fly when your hands are covered with filthy black oil. .

 

Today  Before n'  After  . . .

P1330037s.thumb.jpg.9178f5cf062cbe9584c060c7ba70f5d1.jpg       P1330040as.thumb.jpg.fa257029738a2995fd3c4eeaf3275431.jpg

^ oops sorry, the engine was inverted inbetween photos

 

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The camshaft on these engines is situated half way down the crankcase on the LHS. It's chain driven at the front from the crankshaft and along its length it has a gear drive for the oil pump, distributor and speedo cable, and an extra lobe for the mechanical fuel pump.  From the camshaft up it is cam-followers and push rods to the valve's rockers. 

From below / viewing upwards inside from the sump you can see the camshaft and its lobes.  I only had a quick look before I started cleaning and I've not turned the crank to inspect them all, but the one or two I could see - looked in fair to serviceable condition. The one shown below appears to have a mark or a crack near the top of its lobe.  I've seen this sort of flaw on cams which have been rebuilt ..and they seem to work fine, but after cleaning, a better set of photographs, and closer inspection we'll have to see about these.

P1330039a.jpg.3152d6e90ce8edd373a6cc2fb1f85a22.jpg

^ looking at the big end bolts in this photo - I cannot see a locking washer.?   Similarly in the photo (below) of the cleaned engine they are not obviously apparent.   Is it usual practice with car engines to leave them off and perhaps rely on thread-lock instead ?

P1330040b.jpg.4c10156a6c17e28687b4df9f375349fb.jpg

^ I'm also noticing the numbers are missing on #2 cylinder con-rods.

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Good morning ,

My thinking this morning. . .

The big end shells are clearly shot.  This was evident by the deposits of white metal in the sump and also my feeling how slack their end float is.  End float not being the issue, but their sliding so freely back n' forth tells me they are not such a snug fit !  Very likely then the big end journals are also worn.  And as the end float is so free moving then I might presume the little ends are likewise worn on the gudgeon pins.  And, with such an inevitable drop in oil pressure from the big ends being loose - one might reasonably expect the main bearings to also be worn.  I'm sure when the engine last ran it was very free revving but distinctively rattly.  ;)

As previously discussed #3 cylinder bore was seized with surface rust, and subsequent to it freeing off - my distinctively pink coloured penetrating oil had leaked into the sump.  ie., passed the rings of at least one cylinder. This suggests the rings are seized into at least one piston's grooves.  Clearly the engine needs to be rebuilt ..which was of course to be expected, but I live in hope for something to be better than 'one might reasonably expect'. :rolleyes:

Today I'll check the tightness of the big end caps to see that non are loose (with not having tab washers on the bolts), and also the condition of the rockers, and then armed with a parts and task list - need explore prices.. for parts from different suppliers and for the engineering / machining.  I'll also go back to the engine re-builders, with this crude assessment, to further discuss / for revised quotes.  

Only when I have all the information can I balance the odds.   "if I were a rich man, da dee da de da ..." 

Pete.

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2 hours ago, Bfg said:

Today I'll check the tightness of the big end caps to see that non are loose (with not having tab washers on the bolts)

Only when I have all the information can I balance the odds.   "if I were a rich man, da dee da de da ..." 

Pete.

My current Herald didn't have tab washers either, so it doesn't mean they're missing - check the parts manual to see if they were originally fitted.

As for money... two things here from recent experience: 

1) Shop around for parts - I bought engine parts recently from a large supplier only to find them at less than half that price from another very reputable supplier - that order of £80+ could have been purchased elsewhere for £43, a large whack of the original order being postage and handling, but I was lazy and went for the convenience of 'click-and-buy'. I was also able to buy original heavy-duty bearings and valves online for a fraction of the suppliers price, including original Stanpart versions, with free postage.

2) Shop around for services - I was quoted for block bore work from a local engineering company, which I thought was about par for the course, but when I mentioned it to a relative he then pointed me towards a smaller local company who have quoted me a fraction of the larger company's price. Same tools used and by one of their former employees who has gone out on his own. He's got quite a backlog, probably due to his prices. The larger company were "book it in and we'll inspect it and give you a final price." He was: "Bring it over, I'll look at it and tell you what it needs, but a little engine like that won't take much and you may not need much done to it at all."

I like that sort of service, where you can talk to him, and he'll show you exactly what he's going to do and how it's done but - to use a local phrase: 'he won't put the arm in'. It definitely pays these days to shop around a bit.

 

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On 06/12/2019 at 19:47, Bfg said:

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a little more this afternoon. Starting with spinning the prop  ..oh OK.,  the engine.

P1330004s.thumb.jpg.b51bdb5c02f2825af2808829eba4efaa.jpg

^ with the winch slid back along the strop rearward - Take the weight of the engine on the winch. Pull the spindle part way out of the stand (..it's still in the tube by over 3",  but I have a scaffolding pole in there just in case the winch should fail).

P1330006s.thumb.jpg.b7bd6870d9eab6df8a2cdf82b734063b.jpg

^ lift it a little higher ..so the stand is lifted, a couple of inches off the floor, and rotate the stand under and passed the front engine mount bracket. Stuff a rag in there to prevent it scratching the stand.  And then gently lower the winch.

P1330007s.thumb.jpg.716d862581dc0fb5c42c3ac723bbc0ec.jpg

^ with the engine hanging front end down - push the spindle back into the tube. And lower the winch.  It's simple but a little nerve wracking first time around and with equipment I don't yet trust. 

I didn't rotate the engine further than this ..because the sump, although drained of oil, has not been cleaned out of its sludge.  And I didn't want that gunge up inside the block.  However at the moment I cannot see why it shouldn't now fully invert - on the stand.

Turning the engine back upright is the same operation ..in reverse.

It worked fine but I think I'll extend the length of this (60mm dia.) spindle another 50mm in length ..and add a couple of safety pins. Then it will just be a matter of sliding the spindle out along its tube, turning the engine, and then pushing the spindle back into the tube (ie. normal position).  

Although I can't remove the cylinder head with the engine stand mounted onto the side ..all in all - I'm happy with it being like this. 

 

Now back to work .

When the engine was on end I took the opportunity to just slightly loosened all the sump bolts.  So then, with the engine back upright on its stand, but canted to 45 degrees . . .

P1330009s.thumb.jpg.c23bf7fe856eeb53c46e54b7b5fe1d3d.jpg

^ bolts out and straight into a jar of old petrol ..to clean them.

P1330010s.thumb.jpg.77c6f502abced175df7a70677f84b647.jpg

P1330012s.thumb.jpg.fad87bd976e540bcf59e1891d82f9309.jpg

P1330013s.thumb.jpg.446efbbb074e2d6c127fbafc5fabff8f.jpg

I reckon that reddish colour is the penetrating fluid I put into the bores. It's leaked passed the piston rings. 

 

Otherwise yuk in the bottom of the pan. Black sludge with white metal by the look of it.  BUT., there are no nasty hard chunks !   Yippee !

P1330017as.jpg.0a0bbca4a746e8770dbaef2521d3169b.jpg

^ a pair of disposable plastic gloves, half an hour with a scraper to get out the heavier deposits, 1/2 pint of old petrol,  a dozen paper towels ..and both inside and out is clean enough to handle . 

That's the progress I wanted to make.  And I'm really chuffed there's no nasty surprises (no big bits) in the sump.  

I also replaced the link from the winch to the lifting strop with a piece of 6 x 50mm flat bar.  So all in all ..a good afternoon's work.

Pete

Really enjoying the engine blog section , I’ve never carried out a rebuild and aspire to doing this on my Vitesse mk2 at some stage . I do have a donor engine 

Paul 

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Bearing in mind a modest budget as I start to look at specifications to rebuild this engine to - I'm faced with various questions.  The first of which is regarding bore size.  

The standard is 86mm.  87mm piston and sleeves are the very same price for a 50cc increase in capacity.  But then, referring to the current TR shop prices - the 89mm pistons and sleeves are £170 more for an additional 100cc in capacity ( 2,188cc  -v- 2289cc) and cut away / short piston skirts. 

Seeing as I have no wish to increase the compression ratio,  nor to increase valve sizes or to invest £-hundreds in porting,  nor will I be using twin choke Weber carburettors.  Indeed I am looking forward to low to mid-range torque characteristics rather than higher engine speeds power (and yes I accept power & torque are linear)..  am I not correct in thinking this 4.5% increase in capacity does not directly translate to producing 4.5% more power / torque.?    So I'm led to ask -  Can just 100cc difference in capacity be felt with a 2.2 ltr engine ?

And,  are pistons with longer skirts (of the 87mm pistons) less liable to cock, so be less noisy and perhaps wear less than those with cut away skirts,  or is there an offset benefit in slightly more splash lubrication to the cylinder walls ?

Cheers,  Pete.

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I'm suffering with a bad tooth at the moment and spent a lot of time on the phone yesterday trying to get immediate care. That was not successful ..but a call again this morning to my own dentist, which had given a 3 week waiting time, has now fitted me in tomorrow morning.  This is pertinent to our conversation only insomuch as I got very little done yesterday, but did speak with The TR shop.  Fyi., their sale is on until the end of January, and also before the end of December they offer free shipping on orders over £120.  So I am in haste to get the discounted prices, at last on the bigger items. 

I also spoke to Enginuity who were very generous with their time and advice.  As a consequence., and if my own are not re-useable with a new set of piston rings, then I'll go for the 87mm piston size.  Enginuity suggested they prefer not to machine the scroll off the rear,  but prefer to assemble it very closely, and then they have no issues with it.  I had otherwise read that sometimes the rear rubber seal, because it is split, can still leak a little  - but generally I got the impression that most owners appeared in favour of that mod.  Have I misinterpreted this in-so-much as many of you do in fact prefer the scroll.?  The company I'm otherwise talking to to have the engine rebuilt says they have no problems with the Landrover type seal, not least because the crank is freshly reground to take it so there's no corrosion. 

Any way, today I checked the end float. Using feeler gauges might not be the most accurate way but it's a certainly a very quick n' easy way to do things .  .

P1330045s.jpg.23b1cb44f1baed4109e4ac1052722565.jpg

End float in the crankshaft should be 0.004" to 0.006"  and this engine is at 0.011" so new thrust washer will be required. Not a biggie as those are just £7.58 + VAT as set. 

I also visually checked all the cam lobes, and they seem to be in remarkably good shape. . .

P1330050as.thumb.jpg.eb0d96587a3d4630578ad3b38f297f68.jpg

I don't know that I need to change that,  but in case spoke to Newman Cams - and to regrind this to their very popular for torque / road use PH1 profile will cost £100, plus another  £40 for new cam followers.

1553035715_NewmanCams-TRPricelist2019.thumb.jpg.0e3dc21edae4e0e0d3d2d0c99304d8ac.jpg

 

I then moved on to check the big end shells. I wanted to see the state of the journal and also check to see what size they were. . .

P1330058s.jpg.1c45b56b2d129238db1280c4afb73802.jpg

^ this is much better than I might have hoped for from a 1965 engine, not least from a car which clearly hadn't had frequent oil changes.

P1330060a.jpg.3bb16b0b5ce00b51b29488c7e27facbc.jpg

^ Standard size and if I'm not mistaken the boxed in [G] is for Glacier which was OE spec.

So although I haven't measured for oval wear on the journal, nor have I yet checked the other caps - I'm hoping for no more than a 0.010" regrind.   That's all very pleasing.

I also spoke with Simon @ TR Enterprises to see what they have on offer, their prices and recommendations. All in all very helpful.

And I'm compiling a spreadsheet so I get a better picture of what machining and parts are likely to be required.

Pete.

 

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This afternoon I did a drastic thing .. I stripped off in the cold   :blink:

I started at the bottom and worked my way up...

 

P1330062as.jpg.dec36b0a20f67947aacfdd85a02d36c3.jpg

^ the figures on the card below the row of big-end shell was the torque required to undo each. So the slackest was 62.5 lb.ft and the toughest was 77.5 lb.ft. Torque setting to do them up is 55-60 lb.ft.

P1330063as.jpg.5c1b3cf514dd9621626429b9795f93ec.jpg

^ the other big end journals were all in slightly better condition (visual assessment only) than #3 which is the one I pulled first because it felt slackest.  Thankfully no deep scoring on any.

Then it was back to working from the top . .

P1330075as.jpg.1274acd9e57206df9b1bb4f53d3d7047.jpg

^ i do wonder if that was the original water hose.?  (its part number is printed on the upper side).

P1330076as.thumb.jpg.a0f1ebef5adc3733af03019913d0d6e7.jpg

^ rocker shaft lifted off easily.  Push-rods pulled and poked through cardboard (..old school :)   Sump temporarily back on (..just four bolts) so that the engine might rest on the m/c lift.  And the winch used to raise the head

As is my way I had also recorded the torque required to loosen the head bolts. These ranged from 65  to  >115 lb.ft. (which is as high as my larger torque wrench goes).  The tightening spec is 100-105 lb.ft.   One stud was missing when I got the engine,  but of the others  x6 released at 90 lb.ft or less.

P1330079as.jpg.e9c22068cd2c06f73ad86c7feed6029d.jpg

^ as soon as the nuts were released the head lifted freely over its studs.  That is very unlike the aluminium motorcycle engines I'm used to working on.  As I have not lifted one of these cylinder heads for 25 years I couldn't recall how heavy it was going to be.  As it happens I could have managed without the winch ..but using it did make life very easy indeed. The head gasket is the Stanpart copper composite, and when wiped of oil looks as bright as a new one.

P1330083s.jpg.9ed5b36ed2e7ca568d61f86131b7173d.jpg

^ inside.,  first impressions was a shock.

P1330084.thumb.JPG.62bcf941f3b001472da25a1c5fa8423d.JPG

^ this is #4 cylinder.  It was #2 and #3 cylinders which had their valves open.  I assumed it was the latter which was locked with rust in the bores.  But this is the one full of rusty crud.  Btw it's all pretty loose, and most likely it looks even worse because it's soaked in my pinkish coloured penetrating-oil mix.

P1330085.thumb.JPG.fe9b35ab1953a870bc5440d87e900603.JPG

P1330086s.jpg.a078fedcc572e1036bc823c8519abafe.jpg

^ first impressions

but after just a minute or two scraping and wiping it off  ..it looks better than most I have seen for sale .  .

P1330089as.jpg.52f5c4252893dc2f36e3852a6a41dc7b.jpg

^ with a decent clean up and those exhaust valves replaced for unleaded ones, I'm hoping it will be a decent engine. 

That's its. three hours in the cold garage was enough for me today.

Pete.

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In the meantime I've been pulling together a list of parts, and also a list of engineering services I might require to recondition this engine. 

That may seem not so difficult ...you think !   Perhaps I'm going about it the wrong way, but most suppliers & engineering companies do not freely offer such a list. Whether a deliberate policy or not., it does make comparison rather difficult.  I guess the average customer chooses a supplier and basically works through their website, or calls them up for prices and to order. 

Personally speaking I don't have a prince's budget ..so like my grocery shopping - I need to compare prices.  Furthermore I'd rather like to know what I need and the brand I'll be buying (as an indication of the quality i might expect) before I buy.   After all, whose not been there before ?  Where you've bought a bundle of stuff and then find you need a few more ' little bits'.  Aside from the hassle and delay ..just as you were ready to put things together again, the postage on those small items is always disproportionate to their value. 

So, unreasonable as I might be - I'd like a list, either printed out so I can scribble across it, or else one which is compatible with the Microsoft programs on my computer.   Tom at TR Revington was kind to help me out with such a list and their prices. That was in picture .jpg  format which would have been fine to print out,  but tbh I'd much prefer a spreadsheet.  Online I translated their two page .jpg to .txt and then I formatted that.  I had to individually select text and change those from upper to title case (because my dyslexia struggles with everything being in upper case Ariel font).  I then copied that into Excel and corrected the cell spacing, changed the order of the words in many listings - so items might be appropriately grouped together, and finally I coded and sorted that into listings - such as ; fastenings, gasket, engine block, camshaft & timing, cylinder head, and such forth.  I also added columns to include VAT and to multiply number required by the price. 

I systematically pulled in other parts listing from other suppliers and engineering company's  ..which I'd taken over the telephone and hastily written on the back of envelopes or across a journalist's note pad.  Naturally, the terminology used was different, as was the methodology in listing, so they were changed.  Hey ho.!  

The following list is work-in-progress, and is just the parts list with the engineering services. So far, there are figures from one engine re-builder and two Triumph parts suppliers (differentiated by colour of text).  It was a fair amount of work, but now at last - I'm beginning to see what might be need  ..and how much it all adds up to.  Also I can begin to prices compare side by side.  Now that I have the bulk of the list, adding any other item or prices will be easy.

My next edit will be from Moss's excellent on-line buying website, referring to the exploded diagrams to hopefully pick up on any minor bits which are otherwise missing.  It's a very good resource and I'm sure why Moss have been so successful in business. Of course it doesn't copy easily into a spreadsheet !  Their customers just scroll down the pages and tick the boxes ..and then pay by card. For many I guess it's just too time consuming to compare prices, so Moss wins the whole order.  

Talking about which I found similar with the engine re-builders. The price of their parts and engineering services are on the whole carried across from their previous job's prices, plus a little ..just in case.  In fairness, the engine re-builder don't have the time to chase around for the best prices anyway.  One company in effect said '"this is out (total) price for a 4-cylinder TR engine rebuild  ..bar any infrequent issue. We don't have the manpower to provide quotes with a breakdown."   Another instance of this, from another engine re-builder, was the price for pistons & liners @ £522.  These were 89mm dia but I had found them on offer for £255, for 87mm dia, from one of the suppliers.  Had I accepted his quote and given him my engine to rebuild then I doubt if I'd have seen that £267 difference knocked off the bill.  This was a biggie but the little items all add up too, which is why I'm obliged to shop around. 

Most obviously missing from my own list - is the prices for valves and valve seats. It seems as if these are usually priced as a whole by the engineering service ..and their price includes the valves and seats.  That of course tells me nothing about the brand / quality of parts being used, nor does it tell me if all are being replaced or only the exhaust valves (for unleaded).  And does that including new valve guides ?  I guess knowing this will take further conversation &/or is otherwise taken on trust ..according to the reputation of the company involved.  It's all rather hit n' miss though.  

I'll let you know in a couple of weeks what the breakdown is and of course the total.  

Pete. 

932134299_Triumphenginerebuild-PartsList.thumb.jpg.67460dbfe7db7d266d142cfaac6b127d.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Bfg said:

   Another instance of this, from another engine re-builder, was the price for pistons & liners @ £522.  These were 89mm dia but I had found them on offer for £255, for 87mm dia, from one of the suppliers.  Had I accepted his quote and given him my engine to rebuild then I doubt if I'd have seen that £267 difference knocked off the bill.  This was a biggie but the little items all add up too, which is why I'm obliged to shop around. 

I've been thrown a bit of a curveball in that the engineer who was to do my block work has had a close family member taken ill - it's going to be a long term thing so they're not taking in any new work as of now. The other company I'm now looking at - Comiskey Engineering, Portadown http://www.comiskeyengineeringworks.com/services/ have quoted me £200 to bore the Herald engine block BUT - when they offered to supply pistons and rings, and I mentioned that I had NOS originals, they informed me that the price would be higher if I used my own.

I've no idea why, but if they supply pistons and rings the price for boring is lower but then they add the cost of the other bits; if I supply my own their price goes up. They'll only give me a final price once I commit to bringing them the block. It's a bit of a Catch 22. I don't want a full rebuild that will end up costing me more than a short block bought off a supplier, but then it's the original engine, which I want to keep with the car, and if the Engineers are going to quibble I'll end up getting crank etc all done at their demand, so it will balloon.

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1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I've been thrown a bit of a curveball in that the engineer who was to do my block work has had a close family member taken ill - it's going to be a long term thing so they're not taking in any new work as of now. The other company I'm now looking at - Comiskey Engineering, Portadown http://www.comiskeyengineeringworks.com/services/ have quoted me £200 to bore the Herald engine block BUT - when they offered to supply pistons and rings, and I mentioned that I had NOS originals, they informed me that the price would be higher if I used my own.

I've no idea why, but if they supply pistons and rings the price for boring is lower but then they add the cost of the other bits; if I supply my own their price goes up. They'll only give me a final price once I commit to bringing them the block. It's a bit of a Catch 22. I don't want a full rebuild that will end up costing me more than a short block bought off a supplier, but then it's the original engine, which I want to keep with the car, and if the Engineers are going to quibble I'll end up getting crank etc all done at their demand, so it will balloon.

They will be making a profit on the pistons they supply, so the total price reflects this. If they lose the piston profit, they want it elsewhere.

Besides, if you supply parts your chances of comeback should there be an issue later is about zero. They will blame your parts (I know a garage owner who won't touch a potential customer if they insist on supplying any parts. Too much grief...)

 

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Colin, 

Sorry for the family of your original engineering company.  It can be tough on small businesses.

I guess Comiskey got it wrong..  They perhaps ought to have said "the price is £xxx for the rebore including piston, rings, etc".  And then you say you already have those parts, the company would just have given you the larger price for the rebore.  That way you'd not have known that one subsidized the other.  You don't say how much more expensive it is now. 

Very likely they'd want to do the same with other engineering services - like regrinding the crank .. ie., they'd also supply the bearings / shells + new bolts + anything else.

If it's too much then you have a choice.  Surely there are other companies within traveling distance.  

One company I spoke to said they couldn't guarantee the engine rebuild unless they also installed it in the car.  While I understand the viewpoint that an engine needs to be appropriately tuned for it to survive in good order,  I did not  proceed to ask them to also rebuild the carburettors nor distributor, re-core its radiator, nor even to run the car in for me ! ..each or all of which might possibly have been a (similarly logical !)  condition of their guarantee.   I simply concluded our conversation and phoned someone else. 

More often than not, I'm led by the tone of conversation.  And if I'm not very comfortable with a company, or something doesn't ring true - I take my money and walk away.  In short ;  I expect to be treated with a mediocre of respect - but  need to  trust them both as engineering professionals and as businessmen of integrity.   

 

12 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

They'll only give me a final price once I commit to bringing them the block

There are many of us, who ask for a quote from a number of companies - but only one gets the job.  That means all the others, who have likewise spent their time n' trouble working through the quote (..and getting the latest most competitive prices ..ha !)  have lost that time.. but it is a usual business 'overhead', and like that in any industry. 

My friend who's a self-employed builder spends many an evening working up quotes. However hard he tries - he doesn't win all the contracts. And if he did - then his prices would be too low !   The difference is that he also spends his own time and money on fuel driving around to people's home to see each job in person.  Only commercial contract engineering companies do this. All of those dealing with private customers expect you to do the hauling ..because once on their counter top - you're less likely to pick it up and walk away again. 

Commit ..before you know the price. They are simply trying to pressure you into making the commitment with them ..which to me implies their pricing isn't so competitive &/or they really can't be arsed to deal with customers.  Btw., it's probable that "final price" will be an open-ended estimate and not a fixed-price quote. 

' Engineering / Engine rebuild ' companies almost always estimate their prices for rebuilding tasks.  Because without cleaning and thorough examination and some testing - they simply couldn't know what work is actually involved.   The exception is a fixed and all-encompassing price ..for a complete job.  I received one of those for this TR engine it was £4000 labour and £3000 in parts and machining.  I thought I might possibly rebuild a Triumph 4-cylinder engine for less than that.!

Conversely ' Engineering machine shops'  very often have a set price-list,  for example a local shop's price is  £16 + vat for each crankshaft journal to be reground. To this company it doesn't matter whether that journal is for big end, or mains, or for an oil seal.  Bar something extraordinary being found - it's a fixed price.  I didn't ask them how much a re-bore was because the TR engine has wet liner cylinder sleeves, where it's often cheaper just to throw away worn pistons and cylinders and fit brand new ones.  

" but then it's the original engine, which I want to keep with the car "   The engine I'm doing here is an engine I bought to keep me and this project moving along through the winter months.  Likewise I want to keep the original engine with the car,  so will most likely restore that another winter, once this one is installed and the car is being enjoyed ..albeit as a rolling restoration.  Thereafter I can swap engines over and either keep this as a known-to-be-good spare,  or else sell it along with a pile of receipts. As long as I'm not silly with glitzy bits I don't think I'll loose anything.  I gather many owners of the earlier side-screen cars would like a nicely rebuilt 4A engine at a sensible price.   Who knows, perhaps I'll never get around to restoring the original engine.  But does it matter as long as I keep it with the car ?  There again it may not be as good as this one to restore.  Or else I might re-build it to a different spec. This one is to be soft tuned but with bags of torque for comfortable long-legged touring, and so perhaps the other might have a peaky camshaft,  high compression and twin Webers ?  

Pete.

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12 hours ago, Bfg said:

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Colin, 

Sorry for the family of your original engineering company.  It can be tough on small businesses.

I guess Comiskey got it wrong..  More often than not, I'm led by the tone of conversation. 

This is Ulster / Northern Ireland, Pete! There has to be a long and protracted conversation before any negotiating is done... anyone who gets straight to the point is suspect. :)

I've spoken to a few people over the weekend in the course of conversations and they've all - without exception - recommended the family I was going to (and they are a family - father and two sons both in the business) but that's no longer an option; at least, not for the foreseeable future.

Comiskey's was represented by a fairly elderly gentleman (apologies!! He may just have had a hard paper round) who was grinding a massive crank on a lathe as we spoke - he knew what he was talking about and I know I'll get a proper job from them. But it's like the old song: the pistons connected to the con rod... the con rods connected to the crankshaft... and so on. If they do the block and supply pistons, will they quibble if I use the same big ends, and if I get those reground, will they now need to do the crankshaft too? I'm on a budget here and yes it would be nice to drop the entire engine over to them and say: 'work away' but at what final price? I need something to aim for, or to decide that £2000 worth of engine work in a £1000 car is a bit disproportionate...

 

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I've never been to Ireland but it's on my list to visit in the TR.  I've read in a biking magazine there's a great coastal road in your corner of the green Isle.   I've generally got on very well with the Irish, so I very much look forward to getting across there for a month or two touring around.

Your issue is an awkward one. I must admit I'd be loathe to spend £2000 on a Herald's motor, unless it was a a special car to me.  I probably be looking for another motor to drop in for the time being. Things have a way of sorting themselves out ..and your original family concern might come back into play after a few months.?  

Pete

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Yesterday was a bit of a wash out. It revolved around a set of TR4 fibreglass wings. . .

 

The basket-case TR4A  (..I’m still hoping buy in America) has GRP wings supplied & fitted in 1965 by SAH.  These had slightly wider flared arches to accommodate the magnesium alloy wheels, likewise supplied by that company.  In subsequent years ; one rear wing had been smashed and a replacement (without the wider flare) had been found but never fitted. And those wheels have been sold off and replaced with a set of Mustang alloys, also of wide profile but styled rather like a minilite.  

I’m happy to have fibreglass wings on my car, not least because I want a driver which is less precious to drive as a daily or in a spirited way ..and also because I also value the weight savings in each corner of the car.  I used to build kit-cars with fibreglass panels ..so GRP doesn’t worry me.  However the wide minilite-style alloy wheels would (imo) look better on a TR6 or 8.  For the TR4  I’d be happier with the original skinny steel wheels. 

 

There was a scruffy but otherwise good set of standard TR4 wheels on ebay ..but they were up in Barnsley, Yorkshire.  So, before I bought them, I asked around on another car forum to see if anyone might convey them south for me. Very kindly a chap living in Barnsley, Simon, said his parents lived in Lincolnshire and that he could bring them that far when he visited.  And another equally generous gentleman, Keith, said he worked up in Lincolnshire a couple of days a week, and otherwise lived just 10 miles from myself here in Suffolk. And he too would gladly bring them down for me.  Excellent !

..with that arranged I bought the wheels and let the parties get together for the exchange and conveyance. Simon collected the wheels from the seller, but since then (8 months ago) the conveyance didn’t managed to happen. Communication issues, illness, a change of job for Keith, and so forth.  So I said ; no problem I’ll drive up and collect them myself from Lincolnshire.

 

Then recently, a set of fibreglass TR4 wings also came up for sale on ebay, which I thought would be useful as repair panels ..because those on my car were mismatched and quite probably damaged after all these years. The seller was in Lincolnshire, but that was less of an issue because I need to get up there to collect the wheels anyway.  I ‘won’ the set of four panels for £41.  Great. I was happy with that.

However, it turned out the wheels are still up in Barnsley, and Simon is very poorly ill and not driving. I had thought the wheels were left at his parents.  Expletive - This wasn’t going to plan.!  It’s not economical for me to drive all the way up to Barnsley for a £50 set of scruffy steel wheels. And so unless other arrangement might be made they can be scrapped.

 

I really ought to collect the grp panels.  Never mind I thought “look on the bright side.”  I’d not been to Lincolnshire since the 1980’s when I exhibited the kit cars at Newark, and so this ought be a pleasant drive in the Norfolk and Lincolnshire countryside. Sunday was forecast to be beautiful sunny day, so on Saturday I dropped the seller a note to ask for a collection address and if  it would be OK.  Unfortunately I didn’t get a reply until midday Sunday ..which was then too late.  And the address was another 25 minutes further away,  so now some 3½ hours drive away.

Still the weather forecast was dry for yesterday (Monday), so I rescheduled to drive up then.  That was a mistake. Here in Suffolk we sort of joke about “Norfolk time” being slower than anywhere else. Lincolnshire drivers appear similarly inclined. And the road network north from the A14, at Newmarket, to Lincolnshire is founded in the agricultural 1950’s.  Of course nowadays the amount of  traffic and number of HUGE lorries is quite contemporary. 

And then there’s a flood basin around the ‘

Six-Mile Road
’.  Apparently it’s there to protect Cambridge.  The flood gates had been opened and the flood plain was well.. flooded.!   It was only a ten mile diversion (..either way) but in that stream of traffic, at that pace .. wasn’t part of my idea of a pleasant drive in the countryside.  And of course ; those panels weren’t worth the additional cost of £50 in diesel.

Hey Ho !

 

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Today I had a parcel arrive through the post.. upon opening it seemed as if the mice had nested in it..  :unsure:

P1330092s.thumb.jpg.262ae8475fbc3500d0706d24ea3031b5.jpg

Thankfully no furry critters scampered out ..and once the packaging was swept up I was left with a very nice looking . . 

P1330094s.jpg.74a91d54648abd69c66c751d2b3fc41f.jpg

TR3 flywheel, with resurfaced clutch face and new starter ring. :) 

This weighs in, on my vintage bathroom scales, at (about) 8-3/4 kg. So what's that ¬ 19 - 20lb  +/- couple pound.  B) 

That's said to be about 10 lb lighter than the standard TR4A one.

In fact it's actually very similar in weight to the flywheel which was sold to me with the engine (below left) but which is wrong one . . .

P1330095s.jpg.e7c7f572647cdd95d8126837ccb9cf62.jpg

^ unknown flywheel (above & below) left.  TR3 flywheel (above & below) right.

P1330096s.jpg.48fb3ade7b1f2b27223c29a140f448ae.jpg

The starter ring supplied with the TR3 one is a slightly small diameter than that of the unknown one.  And as you can see the mounting hole pcd is very different.  The unknown is about 2-1/4" whereas the  pcd on the TR3 flywheel and my TR4A's crankshaft are both about 3-1/4".   The bolt-holes match but the dowel size is different dia. (but same place) so that flywheel needs to be drilled a little.   I understand the TR3 one will also need to be drilled for the diaphragm clutch, but otherwise I hope it and the starter ring are good for the TR4A.

I'm guessing the unknown flywheel is off a six cylinder.  But can anyone definitively identify it please ?

Pete

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Out of interest, this is David Vizard's take on lighter flywheels. .

Flywheel

The standard flywheel is, on the 6-cylinder engines, good for giving a smooth tickover, but for a tuned motor it is unnecessarily heavy.

The four cylinder engines also have a heavy flywheel. For these engines, you can have one of two different flywheels depending on the type of clutch fitted, the one being heavier by far than the other. To lighten the flywheel, it is simply mounted in a large lathe and machined as shown for the relevant flywheel in Fig.46.

Practically any machine shop has a lathe large enough to tackle such a job, so there should be no problem getting it done. It must be pointed out that a lighter flywheel neither increases the power nor makes the car faster. It does, however, allow the car to accelerate faster because of the reduced mass which the engine has to speed up.

To clarify the point a little, let us look at a simple example in assuming we have reduced the effective weight of a fly-wheel by 10 lb.  

While the car is in bottom gear the engine rpm to driving wheel rpm is 16 :1  ie. the engine turns 16 revs to the wheel’s one rev.  The 10 lb. flywheel weight reduction is equivalent (in acceleration) to reducing the weight of the car by 160 lb. that is 16 x 10 lbs.

When we change to second gear which, which is about 12 :1 overall ratio, the gain, because of the lighter flywheel, will be 12 x10 lbs which is 120 lbs. By the time we get to top gear, the effect of the lighter flywheel will only be about the same as lightening the whole car by 4 x10 lbs. or 40 lbs.  With the exception of one of the TR4 flywheels the effective weight saving (in its machining) will not-be as great as 10 lbs.  A more likely figure is between 6-8 lbs., but this is enough to make a noticeable difference.

By way of a bonus, the lighter flywheel also enables snappy gear changing when going down the box.

2098994278_TR4andTR4aflywheellightening-removeshadedpart..thumb.jpg.fdee7f77458a720ae451a2ac645391e0.jpg

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