The embarrassing Herald restoration thread - saggy and off-centre, just like me...

[Pete Lewis]

a later lunch ,,,,,,,,,,,,so how about re face the hsg on a sheet of glass and some wet n dry to flatten the distortion

often caused by years of soggy gasket and over  nipping the bolts   bends the flanges 

Pete

[PeteH]

9 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

a later lunch ,,,,,,,,,,,,so how about re face the hsg on a sheet of glass and some wet n dry to flatten the distortion

often caused by years of soggy gasket and over  nipping the bolts   bends the flanges 

Pete

Fine flat file and a surface table (or sheet of glass)?

Merry Xmas (from 79deg F in Texas)

[Colin Lindsay]

There's a character in the Garbage Pail Kids called Leaky Lindsay. I know how she feels - green stuff everywhere.

Not from my nose thankfully, but that's as far as I know - the actual source is unknown and driving me up the walls. Following the discovery of the warped thermostat housing on the 1200 Estate I decided in the meanwhile to fit another - this one was checked for straightness and was perfectly flat. Tightened up, and next morning:

This pointed to one or two things: either the gasket was leaking, or the housing itself was damaged. Off came the housing and the top face was skimmed flat; this time I used a slightly thicker gasket and engine sealant. So far, so good.

 

Sadly it was all for nothing. Next morning the system had drained all over the floor courtesy of an ill-fitting radiator drain plug, which held water long enough for me to relax enough to leave the garage overnight. I'm using Prestone Ready-mixed coolant so it's £14 a container, and I lost around that amount on the floor. I couldn't understand the reason; that radiator had held water perfectly before. Close inspection of old photos revealed the answer: I wasn't using the original radiator but a spare, and a spare that I had cleaned up and painted but never had reconditioned.  

That's the problem with having more than one. The one on the floor leaks from the drain tap, the one with the blue overflow tube is the original but has no fan shroud - I value my fingers! - and so the third to the rear / right is the recon version I'm now using.

 

The spare rad had not held water in decades, so perhaps I was just being optimistic. The recon version was intended for the 1200 convertible but: tough. Life's like that. I'll get the other one reconditioned, at least with a retap of the drain plug housing with a 1/4 BSP tap, but in the meantime the new reconditioned radiator is now fitted with new thermostat, cap, hoses, stainless clips and hopefully properly-sealed thermostat housing. I partially filled it, maybe half-way up the radiator core, as a test of the drain plug and lower hose and went off to bed.

 

Now: this morning. One small drip at the front - the drain tap - and a large smattering, worryingly at the rear of the engine. Not a great place for a coolant leak.

It's worrying because the system is not fully filled, maybe two-thirds full, so the old thermostat housing leak can't have come back. That means it's coming from somewhere round the block. I cannot for the life of me identify where. All core plugs are leak-free, I've checked the hoses, and the block drain tap, but still the leak continues. Under the car, you can see the green drips on the bottom of the gearbox bellhousing, but that's the lowest point, so not the source of the leak. I'm desperately hoping it's coming from the front of the engine, and due to the slight backwards tilt of the block, it's running along a seam and dripping off the back. Sadly, once again, this means: drain the system, remove the radiator, remove the water pump housing, seal all joints and reassemble. Then hope.

It's a pity as I'm working on the dashboard area and have just blasted, repainted and refitted all of the trim and screen-demister vents onto the newly padded dashboard surround. Switches are all connected and if it wasn't for one errant black earth cable around the rear of the ignition switch I'd have all switches correctly connected ready for the wooden dashboard. Once that's fitted there's no reason why I can't start the engine and see how it performs after the rebuild.

If I can't find the source of that leak it's really all for nowt at present, so I can only persevere.

Serious work on the 13/60 will commence within a few weeks so I've been sourcing parts; a nice set of original engine valves for the head:

Valve guides are already purchased, plus cam followers. I'm hoping for minimal engine work, just really tidying and painting, and the suspension, overdrive gearbox, propshaft, diff and rear spring are ready to fit. The interior will get new carpets plus a few little odds and sods, such as a period radio:

It does work or, at least, lights up. I don't need it to work, just look period. There's already a hole for a bulkhead-mounted aerial and I have one ready and waiting. The bulkhead itself needs repainting - it was all painted over, very badly, in black, so I'll go for the original white all over - plus it seems to have the occasional war-wound here or there that needs addressed:

The natives have been shooting at me again. So: in the meantime between finding leaks and reconditioning parts I'm keeping busy and trying not to think the worst... that Estate engine is NOT coming out again.

...and finally for now: £5 from eBay. The other versions I have are too early-looking for this car, which is a 1969 / 1970 13/60 model. What better than a bit of tasteless 1970s tat to improve the look?

If I clean them it might double the value of the car. I can only hope... but it brings back memories of the days when Autofactor shelves were full of stuff like that. I suppose that's why I buy it!

Now: back to the 1200 estate and that leak. I'll find it yet. I just don't want to take the engine out again. Have I said that already?

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

you do  seem to be plagued by leaks .  

its not uncommon for a leak at the front thermo are to track down the head joint and drip off the back of the engine 

youve checked the head core plug there isnt much else at the rear  to give a leak

is it from the heater ????  thats above the clutch hsg  

Pete

 

[Colin Lindsay]

On 09/01/2022 at 11:26, Pete Lewis said:

its not uncommon for a leak at the front thermo are to track down the head joint and drip off the back of the engine

That was the problem with the thermostat housing, leaking coolant ran round the head and off the rear of the block, but at least it was highly visible.

This morning's work on the 1200 Estate has revealed a potential source... I removed the radiator and waterpump housing; no trace of any leaks but the new gasket was very thin and seemed to be soaking wet, so it's to be replaced with a thicker version plus sealant. I was also worried about the long pipe that runs under the manifold, so checked the olive and pipe - no leaks or trace of drips.

However: checking back an hour ago, the drips were on the floor again, under the rear of the engine. This tells me that since the radiator and other cooling ancillaries are removed, the leaks must be the block. All traces of coolant leaks were cleaned off the block, including this pool that has run into the core plug:

However it can't be that core plug that is leaking as they were replaced back in the day when this engine was first stripped down and tidied up, and has never run since, so there has been no coolant to rust through it. The photo on the stand was taken around 2001 / 2002 but gives no clues.

Then a thought occurred to me - the engine last ran in 2003, after it had been painted green, but the restoration was never finished. Was it drained or left full of coolant for the next 18 years? I can't remember. The photo above shows two shiny new coreplugs, fitted at the time.

When it was next stripped down to the bare block, all of the core plugs were replaced on reassembly. They were. I'm sure of it. Yet the photo shows the same two core plugs, now slightly rusty on the outside.

Here's the other side, all nice new core plugs fitted in July 2021. I even did a Courier article on replacing them.

So: why the same two rusty articles on the other side? This we cannot account for, Gollum. Furthermore, a close inspection revealed:

Dead centre of the core plug. Just a little tear, nothing compared to the tears it's going to cost me replacing those. There you have it, guys and gals. One leak - possibly not all, time will tell, but the side valence will have to come off to allow proper access. I've got plenty of plugs so replacement will be easy; it's just the faffing about before and after with all the other ancillaries. That's this evening's job planned out, then. 

I've ordered a 1/4 BSP thread tap online so when that arrives I can clean out and refit all of the drain taps, and that should be that - provided they are all 19 tpi... then the spare rad is off to the reconditioner as a backup, plus it's for the 1200 convertible when work starts there again. As for this one.... refill again, and watch for leaks....  Third time lucky?

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

Core plugs are all dry. Heater hoses are all dry. Heater matrix is not leaking. Radiator is not leaking. Nor the radiator hoses, drain tap, heater valve etc etc. Thermostat housing and water pump housing are all bone dry. I've been over every inch of the engine from above and below, but every morning, running down the engine back plate to the point of the bellhousing, it drips onto the floor:

So it's becoming very disheartening. It can't be a cracked block. There are no core plugs in the rear of the block, inside the bellhousing... so where's it coming from?

[Pete Lewis]

not from a head stud ??or something obscure 

agree no coolant plugs in the back plate zone only the cam bearing plug 

maybe  a good dust of talc would show its source 

[Colin Lindsay]

I've been out yet again and checked, all is bone dry bar two little green drips on the rear edge of the sump, showing where it's finding its' way down along the rear of the block, and drips from there, or else from the backplate lower edge.

It's running down here from higher up, but there are absolutely no traces. Not anywhere. I've checked everything and once again have wiped it all clean with an old towel, but all is completely clean and dry - it's all practically brand new. There's nothing here to leak; I suspect it's finding a crevice along the edge of the head or somewhere and running along that, but I just cannot locate from where.

[Badwolf]

Is this actually water or oil? If water, is condesation forming on the outside of the block and forming a puddle which remains after the atmosphere has warmed up and dried out the block. Desparate idea to try to help. The inside of the metal roof of my sheds are running with condensation during the night, but dry in the mornings.

[Pete Lewis]

Puff   loads of talc ................  at least it will smell nice  !!!!

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

4 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

not from a head stud ??or something obscure 

Definitely not condensation, that garage is bone dry... but cold! Anyway the drips are definitely green coolant.

Pete: re head studs - are we talking about coolant welling up round the stud, or coming out round the edges of the head gasket? The last stud on the driver's side was a real pain to remove when the engine was disassembled, plus this is the one to which the water pipe from pump housing to heater pipe attaches. Now I'm wondering if I should go for the longer stud, such as the 13/60 uses in that spot, or maybe find some other way of attaching the pipe. Must go explore but that one might be the culprit and any water would run straight down the back of the block.

So: just ran back out and checked over the head studs plus the water take-off at the rear of the head. The endmost stud holds the water pipe in place so loses a few threads, but still has more than enough left for the nut to grip. In later cars there is a longer stud here for the engine lifting eye. I couldn't see any trace of coolant around either stud or take-off but have cleaned and replaced the nut - minus washer this time - and am working on sealing the hose take-off, just in case.

 

Incidentally both heater hoses were bone dry; without the coolant circulating the air is trapped inside the system. Unless water is coming out round the threads of the hose take-off, and running inboard until it runs round the edge of the rocker cover then off down the rear of the engine I can't work out if that's the problem, as there's no trace of coolant anywhere round here.

[Peter Truman]

could the cast iron of the head water jacket to rear stud hole be porus ie casting air hole.

When I retired in 2001 I purchased my company car from my employer as it was top of the range V6 Mits Verada with everything, my ususal mechanic who serviced the family car advised me when servicing it the first time it had a small coolant leak in the engine block at the rear of the engine below the head ie out of the water jacket, he used a top quality chemical coolant sealer which we drained out after a couple of weeks, I had that car around 14 years and it covered nearly 300,000klm and it never leaked again. 

[Colin Lindsay]

I'm now very worried as I drained the system right down to below the head, as per the photos above, and this morning I've still got drips. This means that it's either residual coolant dripping down after yesterday's work, or else a leak lower down which means the block. I'll dry the floor, yet again, and watch for a day or two. 

One very very worrying thought occurred to me... those drips on the edge of the sump... don't tell me the sump is full of coolant sitting on top of the oil and coming out round the rear edge of the sump. I used a quality copper head gasket and it's all torqued. I'm afraid to pull the dipstick, now...

[Colin Lindsay]

Just dipped it, it's low - now fully topped up yet - and coolant-free. Once again, all core plugs checked with fingertips, no coolant, but the slightest trace along the edge of the head towards where the engine number is. I'm now having a eureka moment - jumps out of bath and runs naked down street - the rear of the engine is a red herring. It's NOT the rear, but the drips are coming off here due to the rearward slope of the engine, following the line of the join between head and block. It has to be the front, but the waterpump housing was checked and refitted with sealant. A leak from the waterpump would drip off the housing. I'm going to rejack the car on the ramp so that the engine sits perfectly level, and see what drips from where. Thinking out loud in desperation....

[Badwolf]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

 jumps out of bath and runs naked down street 

...do not frighten the horses!!!!

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Badwolf said:

...do not frighten the horses!!!!

Anything I could display would be miniscule in proportion to him. (only to HIM, mind.)

He does it so often and so publicly that I once changed the name on his stable from Dancer to Dangler.

[Badwolf]

Go on, you're just being modest.

[Colin Lindsay]

Back to the level - literally. I've adjusted the Herald on the lift so that the engine is absolutely perfectly level. The system is now filled right to the brim, all drops wiped clean, the floor underneath spotless, and I'm holding my breath. Surely anything dripping will now fall straight down? It has to... or else I'm going to abandon the estate yet again and start on the 13/60.

  

Speaking of said 13/60, I've suddenly remembered a few toys I bought years ago and never had any use for. I bought three of these years ago and salted them away, but I've absolutely no idea of why as the car can only take one at a time. I think they were all three for a tenner. Voltmeter, ammeter and temperature gauge. They sit in the aperture on top of the dash in place of the ashtray.

 

I remember thinking that it would be great to have a temperature gauge in the 1200 and then found out that it doesn't have a dashtop ashtray... and I don't need temperature for the 13/60, which does have an ashtray but also a gauge. Good job I also got voltmeter and ammeter, then. The voltmeter will do until I fit the alternator, then I can either keep it or swap for an ammeter.

The temperature gauge can go on eBay, Classic Minis use them too. As I don't smoke I may as well try to get smoke from somewhere else and wire one of these in. 

Wonder if they do a dripmeter?

 

 

[Chris A]

Those gauges - clever idea that, nice aftermarket accessories, for non smokers

[Colin Lindsay]

Never opened the boxes until just now and found they just stick to the dashtop. In some ways it's a real let-down but means the temp gauge can therefore be used in the 1200. I've had them for over 20 years and believed they fitted in the ashtray slot. Amazing! Well, I can now use at least two, so it's a bonus of sorts.

BTW the Estate is still leak-free... overnight will be the test.

[Colin Lindsay]

Well, there's disappointment in the Lindsay camp tonight. I thought I had cracked it... sealed the take-off pipe, levelled the engine and bingo! No leaks. That being all well and good I refitted the heater hoses, fully filled the system, and let the car down off the lift. And then:

  

It's collecting in the groove along the edge of the head gasket and the return to the normal engine tilt was enough to run it off the block and onto the floor. This is NOT good, as it's pointing to the head gasket itself being the source of the leak; so it's either a duff gasket, or else a warped head, and seriously warped to leak like that. The entire head is going to have to come off and be tested, so bang go all my new gaskets, seals, washers and nuts - I'll save what I can but they're never the same on a subsequent fitting.

It's a real let-down, but you can only refill the system once the engine is complete, and that's when you find the leaks, not before. I'll leave it a day or two to fully drain then the head's coming off again.

I might just leave it for a lot longer and concentrate on the 13/60, which will have to be started soon if it's to be ready for the Spring. The worrying thing is that once it gets started, it too turns into a nightmare of unexpected work, and I end up with three Heralds in bits and still nothing on the road...

[Peter Truman]

been in the same boat this last week Colin with carbs on both the Sprint and Vitesse, new Spindles on the Sprints SU's caused butterfly seating issues see Fuel section of forum, and the Vitesse was leaking fuel whilst running from the rear Strom carb, pulled the float cover off (hate those 6 slotted fixing screws so have purchased 40 allen headed 5/32 32 TPI screws, replaced float valve with a spare Goss Valve  refitted all, started engine poured fuel out now! repeat and fit some very old float valves reassembled whilst also replacing the big O ring on the jet body as fuel was pis***g out of there, the O ring fitted was slightly smaller than new replacements I had, started engine ALL OK, so I did the same on the front carb with the paired float valve, I really should throw those American Goss float valves away, the newer versions don't appear to be as good as the old man originals!   

[NonMember]

11 hours ago, Mathew said:

I know the early copper mk1 2000's needed torque after 500 miles

I never had to do that on either of my Mk1 Vitesses. The car that did need it was the 1850 Dolomite. Still, worth doing, but I get the impression Colin hasn't even started this engine, never mind done 500 miles.

[Pete Lewis]

i agree with petes grose float valves they seem to be rubbish not the bullet proof of days past

so bets avoided as they cause more than they cure 

for those not familiar with the grose design  it uses a ball as a seating 

13 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

float valve with a spare Goss Valve

[Pete Lewis]

Colin  a warped  cast iron head is not a common problem  

think i would back of each nut one at a time 1/2 a turn and retorque to 46 lbft  as a first attempt before you rip it all apart 

 

pete