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The embarrassing Herald restoration thread - sometimes wrong, sometimes right...


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On 05/05/2020 at 21:24, Bordfunker said:

Colin seeing as you are on a streak, can you check your stash for Lord Lucan?

Ta

Karl

I have a colleague who is very elusive. Having managed to get an answer one day I accused him of being like Lord Lucan.

Who's he was the reply? Suffice to say he is half my age. 😞

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1 hour ago, NonMember said:

Those are some very neat brake lines!

Thank you! When I first did it, in copper with a ready-made kit, some of the bends were a bit... extravagant. Kunifer is much more forgiving for straight lines than copper, but much harder to get good bends with no kinks. I've practiced a lot since. That long front pipe was the hardest as it goes under both front suspension turrets, so unlike most of the others, which were shaped on the bench, that one had to be bent on the car. The entire thing worked first time, lovely bends, no kinks, perfect distances between, a real gem, then I got to the end, flared the final flare for the driver's side brake hose with a hand flare tool, and realised I hadn't put the pipe end on first... luckily my pipe cutter has a small insert for flared pipes so I only had to remove about a quarter inch, then do it properly. Now I have to replace the fuel pipe, which I think may be 1/4? It was originally steel but had pitted badly so it's been removed just short of the banjo bolt to allow a connection to the tank, and is definitely thicker than the brake pipe - I can actually put the brake pipe down into it. That will be today's job, plus rebuilding the front suspension.

 

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1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Thank you! When I first did it, in copper with a ready-made kit, some of the bends were a bit... extravagant. Kunifer is much more forgiving for straight lines than copper, but much harder to get good bends with no kinks. I've practiced a lot since. That long front pipe was the hardest as it goes under both front suspension turrets, so unlike most of the others, which were shaped on the bench, that one had to be bent on the car. The entire thing worked first time, lovely bends, no kinks, perfect distances between, a real gem, then I got to the end, flared the final flare for the driver's side brake hose with a hand flare tool, and realised I hadn't put the pipe end on first... luckily my pipe cutter has a small insert for flared pipes so I only had to remove about a quarter inch, then do it properly. Now I have to replace the fuel pipe, which I think may be 1/4? It was originally steel but had pitted badly so it's been removed just short of the banjo bolt to allow a connection to the tank, and is definitely thicker than the brake pipe - I can actually put the brake pipe down into it. That will be today's job, plus rebuilding the front suspension.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brake-Pipe-Bender-Bending-Pliers-For-Cooper-Tube-3-16-And-1-4-Pipe-Making/122209061011?hash=item1c743a4893:g:RH8AAOSwqaJadeO7 Get one of these Colin, no more kinks. Apart from those you share with Doug' on his other site :) 

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Cooper pipe??  :)

I've got one of these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180-Aluminum-Alloy-Pipe-Bender-3-in-1-Copper-Tube-Bending-Tool-Brake-Fuel-Pipe/223781491002?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D226426%26meid%3Dcb40d5361e0a456e851af8def7fd2a30%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D122209061011%26itm%3D223781491002%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithBBEV2bDemotion%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

But not great for tight bends; you have to gauge where the bend is going to be and adjust accordingly as these can be up to two inches out when the bend is finally formed due to the size of the roller. I've also got a set of the club-supplied pliers, but very fiddly and the plastic inserts fall out at the worst times.

As a result I have no kinks at all, but I will admit to having a vice or two... :)

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I've hit two slight headscratchers today, both on the front suspension.

First was that my stainless brake pipe brackets for the front suspension turrets, bought a good few years ago, don't fit. I couldn't work it out until I remembered that I had two sets, bought a few years apart, and was able to compare them just to make sure it wasn't any mistake of mine. Right enough, the other set are longer and fit first time.

DSCF8731.jpg.18db3952ecb695f56adfa58fa2fec50f.jpg

I'll have to take a grinder to the shorter set and elongate the hole. It won't affect anything as there's masses of metal and they're solid enough to lose a few millimetres and not be weakened.

The other more worrying puzzle concerned a new vertical link I bought way back when this restoration was first started - they were a lot cheaper then too! With the benefit of many more years familiarity with these I inspected the trunnion threads and found firstly that they appear to be chromed; which even after many years immersion in oil has started to come off, and secondly the threads are not a match for the original on the other side. There's a definite difference in the shape of the top of the threaded portion.
This is the spot at which they always break and deserves close inspection. The threads seem to fade away here, as if not properly cut, and there is a slight difference in the shape of the unthreaded 'pedestal' where it joins to the rest of the link. 

DSCF8723.jpg.f2afc1389557367932f966c62ac32651.jpg DSCF8724.jpg.7914623d55edac04d642d7d31115074b.jpg

This is something I'll have to confirm - I don't know how far the trunnion thread grips this section when fully fitted; it may be that there's no requirement for threads so far up, but I want to check to make sure. Last thing I want is for the car to hit the road for the first time in forty years and then crash due to a sheared vertical link or an incorrectly fitted trunnion.

That's tomorrow's first job on the list, then.

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thats very odd,  i wonder if some bright spark has ground and polished away the past corrosion ,   doubt the thread at that point is used  but dont have a set to look at

interesting  .........you dont need a Hedge fund  after all the work 

and plating   a  part can create hydrogen embrittlement ,   and that  can make  for hedges and ditches too

you do find the unusual's  

Pete

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've decided not to use that one as it's suspect, despite being newly remanufactured about ten years ago. However we do have problems still...

Firstly: we put the driver's side lower wishbone on the passenger side, by being absent minded...

D41A2956-AD0E-4214-9C63-7AE1134B43F0_1_105_c.jpg.dd4037e03c75631574c8bc572ee85679.jpg

Less than twenty minutes sorted that out. All has now been built up and ready to be torqued once lowered, but there's a problem with the passenger side. The hub will not tighten up fully. If I try to tighten it up as per the manual - tighten up to 5 ft/lbs with no oil seal, then mark where it goes, I can tighten it almost to the end of the threads and it still rotates freely. If I put the felt oil seal in the hub, I can lock it fully, but on releasing it back one flat it seizes on the caliper and is locked solid. The wheel rotates with the caliper off, but not with it on, and it's seizing against the outer edge of the disc slot in the caliper, as if the hub is not seated far enough down the stub axle. I'm just not happy with it. I'm going to redo another vertical link, which means cleaning, repainting and refurbishing, and see if that helps any. I hope it's not poorly made bearings sticking on the stub axle, yet they came off easily enough when the hub was removed again. I'll get to the bottom of it - I'm not in any hurry; Lockdown won't let me on the road, and besides I've the bodywork to do once the suspension is finished. 

In any case, to let things bed in, I've lowered it back onto four wheels as is - tight front wheel and all - and will work on the problem tomorrow. This will now free up the ramp for other things, so the Herald may be sidelined... again...

1C64582C-00C4-466E-BDF1-66C3E451FB8B_1_105_c.thumb.jpg.70e2ced70c3f700c091d5e8071eea173.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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I've started to realise that I'm doing this all wrong.

Take a totally rotten 1200 estate that's been lying in a farmyard for 20 years and rescue it in 1994. Buy a donor car in 1996, trailer it home from Birmingham only to find it's totally rotten too.

Get the original chassis, bulkhead and doors fully restored by Chic Doig, bring it home, build it all up - engine, gearbox, loom, running gear, diff etc. Get the bonnet rebuilt locally at some considerable expense. 
Bring in a second donor car from Grimsby in 1998 for the rear tub and roof, only to find it's rotten too... so rebuild the original tub with new wings etc and sections from the donor vehicle, and have the c-posts of the donor roof rebuilt.

Cpost.jpg.0fec693eae61746d36aac389db0b1680.jpg

Have the complete car resprayed professionally in 2003 only to find that the roof, that was just resting in place, blows off on the way back from the bodyshop. Work on the roof, clean it up again, fit the headlining etc then find it won't fit - it's as far back as it will go on the rear wings and won't fit to the screen surround. The rebuilt C posts are possibly wrong.

Leave the car for the next fifteen years or so, so that all the chrome rusts, all the suspension rusts, and all of the nice new parts go a dull rusty brown. Then restart it again in 2020. This time: do it properly.

I've just finished the brakes and suspension, steering is now fitted, discs, hubs, bearings etc and back on all four wheels again.

CC3702C6-9383-49C5-8074-92B38FAD8F7B_1_105_c.jpg.56a655cf84bcd3d1526feb93b155b360.jpg

The engine's still in bits, all the parts are here for the rebuild, but there's a bit of body and chassis cleaning and touch-up required before I let it get in the way, plus I suspect that the bulkhead was originally fitted incorrectly back in 2001 or so... so off it has to come. Again.

72E16643-BF4B-4D61-9D78-F6A6ACDD0C46_1_105_c.jpg.538c4cbb3029e6240c3db45314846324.jpg

I need to tidy it up, touch up any paintwork that needs it, clean and replace everything - properly this time - then refit to the chassis, which was woefully dirty. It's covered in what looks like a layer of oily grease that is very hard to shift, but which has baked onto the paint over a succession of hot summers and freezing winters and is taking a lot of time, not to mention cleaning products. Still when it does come off, the clean paint underneath looks very well. 

281EB3C2-3808-4DA4-9492-D8D20A653590_1_105_c.jpg.976d5876e22cc3e46d7cb353aedcfbe4.jpg

The problem is that for the job to be done as it should be, the rear tub also needs to come off again. This is not going to be easy - the rear seat, which weighs a ton - has been fitted, as has the fuel tank and I'd rather not disturb these, but they will make fitting the tub, and sliding it into position, very difficult with all that extra weight, so there's really no choice. I just hate the thought of having to redo it, but needs must.

So: I've gone from a complete, resprayed and engine-starting lights-working car, back to a bare chassis and separate components again. It's as if I'm back in 1995 all over again, with a Herald that has now undergone its' second restoration, without even having been on the road since 1977...

AND: I still haven't tried to refit the roof yet.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

Colins got a Flux Capacitor in the garage

 

Had. Sold it on eBay, and got nowhere near the amount I wanted.

Was listening to the radio this morning, John Major has just been re-elected and some strange thing called the Internet has just appeared for public use...

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 07/06/2020 at 11:19, Colin Lindsay said:

I've started to realise that I'm doing this all wrong.

Take a totally rotten 1200 estate that's been lying in a farmyard for 20 years and rescue it in 1994. Buy a donor car in 1996, trailer it home from Birmingham only to find it's totally rotten too.

Get the original chassis, bulkhead and doors fully restored by Chic Doig, bring it home, build it all up - engine, gearbox, loom, running gear, diff etc. Get the bonnet rebuilt locally at some considerable expense. 
Bring in a second donor car from Grimsby in 1998 for the rear tub and roof, only to find it's rotten too... so rebuild the original tub with new wings etc and sections from the donor vehicle, and have the c-posts of the donor roof rebuilt.

Cpost.jpg.0fec693eae61746d36aac389db0b1680.jpg

Have the complete car resprayed professionally in 2003 only to find that the roof, that was just resting in place, blows off on the way back from the bodyshop. Work on the roof, clean it up again, fit the headlining etc then find it won't fit - it's as far back as it will go on the rear wings and won't fit to the screen surround. The rebuilt C posts are possibly wrong.

Leave the car for the next fifteen years or so, so that all the chrome rusts, all the suspension rusts, and all of the nice new parts go a dull rusty brown. Then restart it again in 2020. This time: do it properly.

I've just finished the brakes and suspension, steering is now fitted, discs, hubs, bearings etc and back on all four wheels again.

CC3702C6-9383-49C5-8074-92B38FAD8F7B_1_105_c.jpg.56a655cf84bcd3d1526feb93b155b360.jpg

The engine's still in bits, all the parts are here for the rebuild, but there's a bit of body and chassis cleaning and touch-up required before I let it get in the way, plus I suspect that the bulkhead was originally fitted incorrectly back in 2001 or so... so off it has to come. Again.

72E16643-BF4B-4D61-9D78-F6A6ACDD0C46_1_105_c.jpg.538c4cbb3029e6240c3db45314846324.jpg

I need to tidy it up, touch up any paintwork that needs it, clean and replace everything - properly this time - then refit to the chassis, which was woefully dirty. It's covered in what looks like a layer of oily grease that is very hard to shift, but which has baked onto the paint over a succession of hot summers and freezing winters and is taking a lot of time, not to mention cleaning products. Still when it does come off, the clean paint underneath looks very well. 

281EB3C2-3808-4DA4-9492-D8D20A653590_1_105_c.jpg.976d5876e22cc3e46d7cb353aedcfbe4.jpg

The problem is that for the job to be done as it should be, the rear tub also needs to come off again. This is not going to be easy - the rear seat, which weighs a ton - has been fitted, as has the fuel tank and I'd rather not disturb these, but they will make fitting the tub, and sliding it into position, very difficult with all that extra weight, so there's really no choice. I just hate the thought of having to redo it, but needs must.

So: I've gone from a complete, resprayed and engine-starting lights-working car, back to a bare chassis and separate components again. It's as if I'm back in 1995 all over again, with a Herald that has now undergone its' second restoration, without even having been on the road since 1977...

AND: I still haven't tried to refit the roof yet.

 

 

Wow what did you get charged by chic and the bonnet repairs? 😮 just curious😎

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The bonnet repairs were done locally, a very good bodyworker who has sadly since retired - he charged me £400 but did an amazing job, and that was back in the mid-1990s. Chic did both chassis and bulkhead - and reskinned the doors if I remember correctly - but this was back in about 1998 / 1999 and I remember it wasn't cheap, as the chassis required one complete main rail. The repairs to the roof C posts and the respray were free due to a deal with a local garage, where I worked for them, up to seven / eight hours per day on top of my own job, and they repaid in labour.

I've found another good bodyworker about six miles from me, his rate is £20 per hour, and he'll get the convertible rear tub plus other small touch-up jobs like the front valence for the red 1200.

The white car has the tub back on, but not very well; in fact it was a bit of a shambles earlier.

4A0CE18D-1302-4BFA-BCF6-2DAC9975050F_1_105_c.jpg.c8ab2a74e303012b1d8610b9ecd3ead2.jpg

Up and down like a fiddler's proverbial. A shim at the end of the bulkhead actually worked wonders, for something so small and so simple, and the door did straighten to some extent, but now needs to drop at the front so as to rotate into the gap and align to the B post.

BC90932F-F18E-41A5-8576-E05622FF80C0_1_105_c.jpg.c441f5a8af571aac5c95b2c25b24b2df.jpg 2FCE9DA3-E4A3-4B1F-84EC-E27F612FFD89_1_105_c.jpg.d56c3f5abf3a6c3b7cad1aeedaa39bd4.jpg

Sadly we have serious tub spread; it's sitting out at the bottom by a mile and at the top the door is tight to the A post even without the rubber seal fitted. I can't check it that applies to both sides, since the passenger door has had to come off again. The captive plate in the A post is playing silly bu&&ers and won't line up - it does with no door on, but once I'm trying to hold the door in place and insert a bolt it slips downwards again, and I wrung two of the threads so badly the door had to come off so that I could retap them. 

I also found out the quality of modern day mounting clamps - cheap rubbish. I know they only tighten lightly but I hadn't even begun to abuse this one. Thankfully I have original versions and might even have some heavy duty versions made up for later use. If only lockdown would end I could have a couple of friends round and have all this done in a day, but things are dragging on too long for pleasure.

36DB371B-372E-449A-BDC6-6CE35B7B3AB3_1_105_c.jpg.0b04a3fb61fc5c86ec3f11b0e572bd30.jpg

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20 quid an hour is cheap these days.

Wow youve been on with this build since the 90s? The midget I had started to restore mid 90s had new front end rails and inner mudguards costing 700 all in, this was done at FM sportscars in Warrington, I couldn't do stuff like mig welding then and had my own lab there too was so busy.

Not had any experience with any triumphs upto now with my gt6 so dont know anything about heralds apart from knowing they come apart like yours.

Would it not be better to line everything up then paint it?

Nice colour 😎

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Colin - This is a seriously stupid question. I have a similar problem to your door alignment, as I mentioned on my restoration thread. It makes me wonder if the shims between the body shell and the chassis, on mine, which were different thicknesses as I vaguely remember (30 odd years ago) were put back in a way that when bolted down, actually twisted the bodyshell causing the shut lines to twist??? Would this cause the doors to stand out as in both your photo and mine? Just a thought!!

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26 minutes ago, Badwolf said:

Colin - This is a seriously stupid question. I have a similar problem to your door alignment, as I mentioned on my restoration thread. It makes me wonder if the shims between the body shell and the chassis, on mine, which were different thicknesses as I vaguely remember (30 odd years ago) were put back in a way that when bolted down, actually twisted the bodyshell causing the shut lines to twist??? Would this cause the doors to stand out as in bith your photo and mine? Just a thought!!

Not stupid at all; the rear tub is not yet bolted fully in place as the passenger door has not yet been fitted, and there is quite a gap under some of the mounting points. Once I get the doors properly fitted and gap the tub I'll bolt it down and see if it draws the sides in at all; I don't remember the tub spread being this bad when it was last fitted, so it's possible there's a bit of twisting to go yet. If I remember, the passenger side was almost perfect, so it might just be one side.

1 hour ago, Brooky said:

Would it not be better to line everything up then paint it?

Nice colour 😎

The Estate has been worked on, abandoned, restarted again, abandoned again, shunted to one side and left under a cover for the last 15 years or so. It was roughly assembled, then other restorations got in the way, and then I got the offer of a free respray in two-pack in a professional body shop so jumped at the chance, but there was such a short time that it was not properly put together - the Herald was collected and taken away before I had time to complete a lot of the work. The door skins, for example, were crimped but never welded, and the roof was set in place but not bolted on, which is why it blew off on the way back along the motorway. If it wasn't for lockdown it might never be finished, it's had more work in the last few months than in the preceding decades, and even then has been proceeding slowly alongside a TR7, GT6 and 1200 convertible restoration... so never seems to get the attention it deserves.

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When my Spit was originally done by a professional full time, well meaning mechanic, I had absolutely no idea about bracing the door gaps when replacing the sills, the reason for spacers under the body-tub, shut lines and a host of other things (like don't throw all the fittings unlabeled into a bucket). Now that I have become much more involved in the hands on, I see things that should never have been done, like the door alignment. It is now too late to rectify a lot of these either due to cost, time or practically. So in my case its a case of do the best that I can and just enjoy the car when I can. This is the reason for my adhesive tests as the welding of the headlight web plates was so bad it took just the flick of a screwdriver to split them, so however bad the adhesion, it has got to be a stronger, neater job (if I ever get around to it!!) than the original.

 

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It's amazing how much you see - wrong - when you return to a car that you haven't looked at in 17 years... the bulkhead was fitted wrong, a lot of the suspension had been wire brushed and Hammerited, and even the engine had just been fitted with no more renovation than a coat of paint - and green, at that. Now I'm hopefully doing it properly, the body will go on much better and the engine has been rebored, and all other bits are sandblasted and painted properly. The benefit of a few more years of experience!

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I've managed to regap the tub - slightly - and fit the passenger door, which hangs amazingly level and actually clicks onto the lock, but still opens when weight is put on it, so the mechanisms require adjusting before someone ends up out on the road. As I suspected, the passenger side also sits out at the bottom.

DSCF9117.jpg.2ef75e7754663f786aa75068a4c06ecd.jpg DSCF9118.jpg.368a43cb78a02f4e53df6848762ca626.jpg

I don't think I can gap it much better; if you look at the skin profile it's tight at the top, wide in the middle and tight at the bottom, and no amount of fettling will cure that. It's a poor profile of door skin and should have been fitted and fettled to the B post instead of being fitted to a door that had been removed. It's not the worst, but not the best.

Tub spread is going to have to be addressed; the measurement between the B-post tops, where the door pillar bolts on, it 48.3 inches, and I think it should be 46.5. I'm going to have to pull the wings in, and ratchet straps seem the best option. The problem is: where to attach them without bending something beyond repair or pulling something off.

DSCF9119.jpg.f88b6d0f516cbbfa7a6a2fa4f956cc70.jpg

This is the inside of the Estate B post area. I can possibly jam a thick block of wood from floor to inside of wing top, or possibly a shorter one from back of b-post to inside of wing top at a diagonal. I just don't want to bend anything beyond repair. I can, if necessary, use one of the lift pillars so that I'm not pulling wing against wing - they don't have to move by an equal amount - but I'm checking all of the options before I start. All tips, advice and caveats welcome!

 

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 im sure youre seen all this ,with no clues about how to we just dragged both sides together from the lug  for the B post extension ,( probably the first nut to put it in print )

with odd timber and studding  much creaking and cracking  had to pull far more than the spring back gave it worked

  youre a master on here and sure you have seen some of the ingenious ideas used 

to pull one side or tother ,     46.5  "sounds about right 

as yopu pull ypu can see the change to the door base line , then when you release see it re appear ,  be brave   ha !!!

Pete

bodytub.jpg

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Barbaric idea.. put a timber block inside each wing, screw into place using the existing holes so they won't move. Screw eyelet screws into the timber near the top on both sides. Attach strong rope through each eyelet so there is enough rope free to pass over your lift. Slowly and gently raise the lift which might just pull in the wings. Only an idea... don't try this at home!!!!!

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  • Colin Lindsay changed the title to The embarrassing Herald restoration thread - sometimes wrong, sometimes right...

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