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The embarrassing Herald restoration thread - sometimes wrong, sometimes right...


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It's raining again... I feel a song coming on. No, not THAT song (Remember Supertramp?) but something along the lines of: "Where's my sprayer gone, where's my sprayer gone...?" 

Today was the day that a mate was to collect the finished half of the red Herald - bonnet, chassis, bulkhead, valence and grille - take them off to his premises and spray them a lovely shade of Signal Red, but he hasn't appeared and can't be reached on the phone. I wanted his advice on the terrible fit of the front valence which he may be able to 'fettle' if that's the word for cutting bits out and rewelding. I've read a few posts on the dodgy fit of panels from this supplier recently so I reckon they've had their last order from me.

In the meantime I've been working on other small bits, including replacement seatbelt mounts for the early Herald floor. The originals were too badly rusted for my liking, in fact one broke whilst being unscrewed, so I dug out a few odd parts of angle iron and was able to get very close to the originals, except mine are beefier to reflect the heavier seatbelt mounts that will be fitted.

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I put a strengthening lip on them and made them maybe 1/4 inch wider and longer to spread the load, and am happy with the way they turned out.

They have to be nice to match the new seatbelts, which QuickitSBS made for me in about ten days. I've gone for the same silver grey with the centre y-piece and B-post mounting as previously fitted, but I've changed the floor mounting to a spring-catch version rather than the through-bolt of the originals. This means that if they need removed I don't have to unscrew the entire plate but can just unclip them. I'm not taking them out of the bag until they're needed - they're much too clean and new-looking to lie about a dirty garage.

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If only I had the bodywork to fit them all to... not only is the sprayer running late, but the bodyworker who was to weld the convertible floors isn't answering his phone either. Stalled, yet again... but I can't complain, the spray-job is a freebie.

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1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

It's raining again... I feel a song coming on. No, not THAT song (Remember Supertramp?) but something along the lines of: "Where's my sprayer gone, where's my sprayer gone...?" 

Of course I remember Supertramp! Excellent band.

However, the canonical song for your missing paint application consultant would, in my circles, be the Vegetales' classic "Oh where is my sprayer?"

Nice seat belts, BTW

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  • Colin Lindsay changed the title to The embarrassing Herald 1200 restoration thread - getting bored!
On 20/10/2020 at 15:41, NonMember said:

the Vegetales' classic "Oh where is my sprayer?"

Couldn't find that one, Rob! I did try...

Getting seriously bored now, to the extent of finding evermore silly and maybe unnecessary jobs to do. The sprayer has not yet turned up - Covid Lockdowns and his own business are getting in the way so I'll not stretch his goodwill by demanding an immediate job, especially when it's free... :)

So: to kill the time, I've been soundproofing and heatproofing yet another gearbox tunnel cover. I did the GT6 a while back and was very impressed so as I bought 20 Dodomat panels I've found that five, maybe six does a complete tunnel, so have more than enough for three Triumphs. This is the tunnel that I repaired using fibreglass a short while ago; it's now got a new rubber gearlever seal too and is only missing the outer floor / bulkhead seal, which I'll add later.

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As I complete more and more important jobs I've turned to the lesser ones that still need done; I've sorted out a birdsnest of a 1200 wiring loom, fitted new connectors where necessary, and a new rubber bulkhead grommet. I also started to clean a pair of sunvisors, which ended up being seven pairs... where did I get all those from? They were long overdue cleaning, too...

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However this next step is one that I've been planning for some time, ever since I bought the bits back around 2011 or so. It's a Falcon tubular manifold for the 1200, a nice 4 - 2 - 1 system that ends in the same diameter of exhaust pipe as the original Herald system. I may add a Mk1 GT6 rear box that I have lying spare, or maybe just retain the standard Herald to see how it performs. This of course leads to the question: what carb setup am I going to use? I'm not interested in speed or racing, it's really only to improve on the look of the original cast manifold setup, so I'll get it running first then decide on any upgrades. 

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  • Colin Lindsay changed the title to The embarrassing Herald 1200 restoration thread - it's the challenge!

I'm now on the little jobs, given that the larger jobs such as welding and respraying have stalled due to a mixture of lockdown, and other things getting in the way. Most of what I'm doing is for the fun of it, the challenge, as a result of too much time stuck at home with nowt else to do. 

A few years back I dismantled a seized Delaney Gallay heater blower motor and ended up pulling the bronze bush out of the housing, which is a fiddly job to replace if it can even be done. Fresh eyes a few years later told me that if the bush won't go into the housing, then try a different housing, and as the old one had to be prised out, it was beyond reuse. An old - possibly MG - blower motor yielded up a new and more modern bush housing, so once this was removed - by sawing off the end of the motor casing - it was a simple press fit into the DG motor case, and away we went. Literally. One more saved from the bin.

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Whilst I'm not stuck on total originality for the 1200 convertible I do want to keep certain features, one of which is the original ignition key and lock mechanism; when the car was purchased, a note in the handbook stated: "your spare keys are under the washer bottle" and they were, rusted to the bulkhead, forty-three years on. If they've lasted that long, they deserve saving.

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The problem is that the original wiring loom is past use, and maybe even past repair.

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Whilst I can get a replacement loom - in fact I have a new one in the drawer - it differs from early looms in that the connections at the ignition switch are spade connectors. Early ones were a small metal hook, which screwed into the terminals.

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I can't get them anywhere these days, but they're not hard to adapt from other similar clips, which I did manage to source. A little bit of judicious grinding and voila - new clips. The one to the left was my first attempt and was marked by the vice; the other two are more pristine once I'd realised I needed to mask the jaws to prevent damage.

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The final stage was to confirm the keys are correct; the number is on the end of the barrel, and matches both keys, as does the bootlid lock and so hopefully doorhandles. Brill!

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All I need now is a car to actually fit them all to. Must phone the sprayer... again...

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  • Colin Lindsay changed the title to The embarrassing Herald 1200 restoration thread - spring has sprung

Next step (given that the sprayer has STILL not turned up) was to address the rear leaf spring. I've already restored one a few years back that was packed in grease, wrapped in black bin liners and salted away, but here's another one for renovating. This is the fixed-spring convertible version.

First step is to strip it down and see what state the components are in. The convertible spring has eleven leaves and four spacer tubes. The wet marks are grease, so there's only surface rust, but the rubber buttons are very distorted and need replaced. Note that the bottom leaf is actually two; one slides inside the other so that the end bushes are completely surrounded by two thicknesses.

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The spacer tubes and through-bolts are beyond saving, but thankfully there are replacements available, and new rubber buttons too. The clamps are there to prevent any forward or backward movement of the leaves around the centre pivot.

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Biggest difficulty was replacing the two spring eye bushes. This leaf of the spring simply slides out once the centre bolt is removed, so you're working on one leaf only which is a lot lighter than the entire spring. A bit of judicious pressing with a vice, socket and bolt slid the highly distorted and worn rubber centre out. This is a seat spacer which fits inside the housing; a socket of the same size as the metal outer allows tightening of the nut and bolt to draw the bush down into the socket. All that remains is the outer steel ring which has to be hacksawed out. It won't move any other way - heat, penetrating oil, a drift and harsh language all failed.

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With a good coating of grease the new bush can be pushed back in with a bench vice. The spring eye will expand slightly as it goes in, so once it's lined up it goes straight in. Slide this leaf into the other as before. After that realign the leaves with the centre dowel through the hole and insert the rubber buttons onto the relevant leaves; they'll stay in place under the weight of the leaf on top until you can tighten the bolts and spacer tubes. I usually grease each leaf before replacement to ease movement and prevent corrosion. On the top leaf you'll see the word 'front'. Amazing thing is, it's usually either at the back, or printed upside down. I've no idea if it makes any difference other than the orientation of the spacer tubes and bolts, so I always reassemble with the nuts to the rear in hope that it lessens corrosion although they also get plenty of grease too.

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After that, tighten the centre bolt; you'll need to compress the leaves down with g-clamps and if the centre dowel starts to rotate - which it might if it's greasy - clamp it gently and carefully in a vice or use a stud puller to grip it, but avoid damage if you can - it has to seat fully into the diff. After that, refit or store as required. Another job done!

One thing I've done in the past is to wrap the spring tightly with Denso tape, or other grease-impregnated tape; this stiffens it up but also keeps corrosion at bay for much longer. Just leave the centre section and the spring eyes clear, and tie off the ends of the tape with wire twists. Many cars of the period used gaiters on the leaf springs, so this has the same effect.

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Just as an update, here's the Denso tape applied; three inch tape would in one continuous loop from outside to inside and back again.

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  • Colin Lindsay changed the title to The embarrassing Herald 1200 restoration thread - disaster strikes

Well, we've had our first setback in a while, and how serious it is remains to be seen and depends on other parties...

I've bought an all alloy gearbox - £30 - and it's in quite good nick, so decided to refurbish it and use it in the Herald as a novelty feature. Whilst the casing and rear end have been well stored, the front of the bellhousing has been open to the elements and as a result the entire release arm and bearing assembly is seized solid. This is a unique item to these boxes and is secured by a unique hinge - part number 112235 - which is screwed directly to the bellhousing, as opposed to the pivot pin through the bellhousing of later cars.

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Whilst I was able to remove the arm by simply unbolting two bolts and puling it straight off, the hinge was seized solid, as were the other metal parts on the arm including the long clutch adjustment rod that later cars do not have. It was therefore a matter of using lots of penetrating oil  gentle heat, and some force to move or remove the parts. I was able to free up the hinge to a point where it moved under gentle force, but was nowhere free enough to use under pedal pressure alone.

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I found that using a suitable drift and a series of spacers, I was able to force the centre pin out of the arm halfway, but my Record vice was not big enough to get it out the entire way. It moved so far, but no further. The spacers by the way are Herald seat spacers which have the same centre bore as the pivot pin and worked admirably, up to a point.

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So: off I went to the in-laws who have huge engineering vices, and set the same assembly of spacers and washers to work. Unfortunately if something was going to give, it wasn't the pivot pin. With an enormous bang the hinge shattered in two parts and flew off across the workshop. I should have known but I got carried away when it started to move, and so applied too much pressure. So: now I have no hinge, and unless someone knows of an old Standard gearbox that has a spare one, I'm sort of stuck. The In-Laws have offered to machine a replacement (in steel, which won't really make any difference to the setup) but it will be after Christmas.

If anyone knows of anywhere who could make one of these in alloy, please get in touch. It's unique to these cars, as is the release arm itself, and I doubt if there's a replacement one anywhere, so I'm off on another challenge to have one remade. All help appreciated.

 

 

 

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Badly distorted, Graham - I left it with the in-laws or I'd have posted photos. It stretched on one side before breaking. The stud I had used to force the pivot pin through pushed through one side of the hinge, but in the vice I forgot to check that the release arm, now free on one side, had not moved off centre. The stud pressed on the release arm body rather than the pin, just a fraction to one side, but it was enough to fracture the hinge once force was applied.

I've been in contact with the Standard 8 Owners club, they tell me it appears to be the same as on their cars, yes they have some in stock, but they only sell to members... :(

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Colin re Denso great stuff and your covering should be adequate but they also do a Denso Paste that is to be used in conjunction with the tape. The purpose of the paste is to fill in any voids or air pockets and the sharp corners eg round bolt heads and nuts so the tape doesn't get stretched with air pockets underneath and eventually tear thro. This is particularly important when covering bolted pipe flanges and the assembly is going to be buried, the weight of the backfill earth could tear the tape over the sharp edges.

The tape is messy but the paste is 10 times worse, & it takes for ever to get off your hands, definitely a rubber glove job!

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14 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

Colin re Denso great stuff and your covering should be adequate but they also do a Denso Paste that is to be used in conjunction with the tape. The purpose of the paste is to fill in any voids or air pockets and the sharp corners eg round bolt heads and nuts so the tape doesn't get stretched with air pockets underneath and eventually tear thro. This is particularly important when covering bolted pipe flanges and the assembly is going to be buried, the weight of the backfill earth could tear the tape over the sharp edges.

The tape is messy but the paste is 10 times worse, & it takes for ever to get off your hands, definitely a rubber glove job!

Didn't know that!! The tape is incredibly messy, but I used it on the GT6 when I replaced the old Spitfire spring back in the mid-2000s with a new GT6 swing version and it seems to have stayed put with no holes so far; I do regrease it every so often as part of the annual service - in fact I cheat and spray it with Waxoyl or spray grease - and it has not, so far, unwrapped, frayed or split, so I'm well pleased with it. I was expecting to have to replace it within a few years but it's still looking good. What I found recently was, due to the weight and length of the spring, that my gloved hands were okay but my arms and clothes ended up covered in the stuff. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Latest and very brief update.

The bodyworker cannot come near me to advise on Estate tub spread and possible cures due to Lockdown.

The sprayer for my 1200 convertible has no room due to having a lorry in his spraybooth which has been abandoned by the owner who is stuck at home due to Lockdown.

The engine expert cannot attend to assist with the rebored 1200 Estate engine rebuild due to Lockdown.

All three have me top of their lists for end of February / beginning of March, so until then...

I've finished all of the chromework on the 1200 Estate which did absolutely nothing for progress other than to make it look nice, and therefore made me feel happy. It's the little things that count.

862433EA-80B5-433C-AF5B-56E6E43EBA9E_1_105_c.jpg.87287a20cf112ad0f6c13078c074f5d7.jpg

 

 

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  • Colin Lindsay changed the title to The embarrassing Herald 1200 restoration thread - I've forgotten...

I'm now trying to reassemble the front steering uprights, sadly entirely from memory as I dismantled the four sets I have to blast and clean them, and select the best or at least, least worn, and have completely forgotten how they reassemble. 

Early uprights are visibly identical to each other, there are no identifying marks whatsoever other than the steering arm, which once removed removes any clues as to which side the upright goes on. The only way of telling is to fit a trunnion and if the trunnion marked NS fits, then it's nearside, and the other one should take the trunnion marked OS. This seems to work. Once I've got that worked out I can fit the adaptor to convert from drum brakes to calipers.

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First problem is that I've forgotten which way round the caliper mounts go. Do the mounts go to the front, as pictured, or behind, with the two raised bolt lugs pointing down, not up? All my early manuals are for drum brakes only, so I'll need to find a good exploded diagram online and try to work things out from that.

Second problem is that the lovely stainless steel laser-cut disc shields that I had made a few years back are also causing fitting problems. Do they fit with the recess against the upright, as pictured, or away from it? Either way, the shield appears to be very very close to the trunnion and the wheels will not turn to full lock without fouling. Even if I fit them the other way round, recess against the upright and the disc further out, as in the photo, they still seem very close. 

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I decided to trial fit an entire assembly, and measured up the type 14 calipers I'll be using. They don't fit. They're bigger and so fouling off the edges of the shield. I tried the type 12s that originally came off the car and they fit perfectly, but the bigger calipers are no go against the new shields.

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It appears my super-duper laser precision cut discs are not the same profile as the originals; in fact put back to back there's a considerable amount of metal in the new ones that is fouling the larger calipers. Not good. I'd go back to the original steel versions but I sent one off to have it copied in stainless, and the guy doing it... lost it. He sent me back the stainless versions but kept the original, and when I asked for it he claimed the factory had lost it. It's strange but when I spoke to him recently he denied ever making these for me, too. His memory must be worse than mine.

So: I'm going to have to trim these back in order to use them, since I can't just blast and replace the originals of which I only have one. Wonder if anyone has any spare? Note: these are NOT the same as Vitesse or GT6 shields, unless possibly early Vitesse; the GT6 shields are markedly different. Off I go to check online, both for replacements, and a good parts diagram to confirm how everything goes back together. Just in case.

 

 

 

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Instinctively I would have thought the caliper mount goes the other way up and the exploded diagram in the WSM (Fig 20 on page 4-110) seems to agree with me. The trunnion clearance on your assembled photo looks about right but the assembly again looks wrong. The diagram shows the dust shield the other way up but also the other side of the caliper mount.

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8 minutes ago, NonMember said:

Instinctively I would have thought the caliper mount goes the other way up and the exploded diagram in the WSM (Fig 20 on page 4-110) seems to agree with me. The trunnion clearance on your assembled photo looks about right but the assembly again looks wrong. The diagram shows the dust shield the other way up but also the other side of the caliper mount.

It does! I've so many old or early WSMs that don't even show the early disc conversion, and have only illustrations of either drums or later uprights / shields, but managed to find a supplement from 1962 on my shelf that shows the brake caliper adaptor facing downwards into the hub, so I've trial fitted that and the clearance for the calipers, both 12 and 14, is good. I'm assuming the disc shield fits with the recess against the upright so that the shield sits proud and so closer to the disc, as in the photos below, rather than the other way round which still fits but leaves the shield sitting further back, if you understand what I'm trying to illustrate. I'll see how it looks once the discs themselves are fitted. In any case the stainless covers are wrong and will need to be trimmed.

EAE17184-3390-4A45-BA50-B3B67A0E1FB4_1_105_c.jpg.d9bf73f4a0bd47d86da0cbaacd7c2f26.jpg  B8C7D96A-186E-471F-B0A9-EC8C344D1AB8_1_105_c.jpg.df4ba7a56dec97924f3ff230cc1a5703.jpg

If it all goes really pear-shaped I've got a complete set of later uprights, shields and calipers that are a straight swap.

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I think, from the exploded diagram, that the caliper adapter goes between the dust shield and the vertical link, then the dust shield is also the other way up, so that it has a bit of a hump in the middle that sits inside the disc.

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Confusing, isn't it? I know for a fact - it's a dead cert - that it will all fit together until the very last component is fitted, and only then will it become apparent that something is the wrong way round. I think you're correct, too, about the disc shield which sits on top of the rest - but is the dimple sitting out towards the disc, or out towards the hub? It now makes more sense to have it 'wrapped round' the adaptor, the way I have it in the photo above but just back to front. I must have a quick hunt for locking tabs, part 18 in the photo. Thanks for the help, it's starting to come together now after so long.

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2 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

Triumph issued a notification on how to convert ie fit the disc conversion from drums I think I have a copy but it may take a while to locate ie tomorrow when I’m up just doing an early AM get a drink at the moment.

That's no excuse, it's 5pm here. :) It's always getting-up time somewhere in the world.

I've just found one that I had on the hard drive, forgot I had it, so it's been a good help.

It says, as below, the disc shield should be dished outwards and, as Rob's pointed out, the bosses on the adaptor facing inwards. Another small step forward.

1756499201_ScreenShot2021-01-29at20_01_59.png.e869532c463db7a28e0d6ab2ab5ddf4f.png

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Colin not what I was expecting to find, I thought there was a "Triumph Training Notes" or Notice covering the Disc Conversion, but I did find this hard copy, source unknown which I've scanned in.

I don't know if it's of any value to you and by the high page numbers I assume its probably from a Workshop Manual Accessories Section.

Herald Disc Brake Conversion Pg1.jpg

Herald Disc Brake Conversion Pg2.jpg

Herald Disc Brake Conversion Pg3.jpg

Herald Disc Brake Conversion Pg4.jpg

Herald Disc Brake Conversion Pg5.jpg

Herald Disc Brake Conversion Pg6.jpg

Herald Disc Brake Conversion Pg7.jpg

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14 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

Colin not what I was expecting to find, I thought there was a "Triumph Training Notes" or Notice covering the Disc Conversion, but I did find this hard copy, source unknown which I've scanned in.

I don't know if it's of any value to you and by the high page numbers I assume its probably from a Workshop Manual Accessories Section.

Herald Disc Brake Conversion Pg1.jpg

Thanks Peter; slightly different to the one I found but still has confirmation of the important bits - the last paragraph above re positioning the dust shield is exactly what I need. I have the Training Notes booklet on disc brakes, but as the name suggests it's for these only and does not cover either drums or the conversion. I wonder is there one for brakes in general?

Sourcing the small components is proving a challenge but good fun; I have about four sets of early uprights, but only three brake caliper adaptors (why three???) and one original dust shield with two stainless steel versions that require trimming. I've managed to find the correct bolts, and have suitable locktabs, and was able to buy the rubber seals that go between the adaptor and the upright; in fact I got two original square-profile types, lost them somewhere in the garage, and had to buy another two which are just circular o-rings... I think I'll go out for a rummage later and try to unearth the original versions. They don't fit anything else...

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  • Colin Lindsay changed the title to The embarrassing Herald restoration thread - sometimes wrong, sometimes right...

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