Iain T Posted October 31, 2019 Report Share Posted October 31, 2019 Firstly I have to say I have a blind spot when it comes to electrics! After three alternators decided to either stop charging or vibrate the whole car I bought a Brise 5siacr. I thought I could sort out how to plug it in but I need the Forums help. My old Lucas 17 ACR has only two terminals with a brown/yellow small spade wire and a larger spade brown/green wire plugged in. With the engine running I put an avo on the brown/green wire and it showed 14.4 volts so I assume this is the charge side to the battery, although I can't see where it goes. Therefore the brown/yellow must be to excite the alternator? The Brise has a type 1 terminal with two spades and a larger stud terminal for a larger cable straight to the battery. Obviously the regulator has been junked in lieu of a multitude of brown wires in a connector box, that's electrical technical talk for me. My question is where do I plug in the brown/green and yellow cables into the Brise? Do I need the brown/green cable as I will be using a new cable to the battery.......etc Sorry if this has been covered before but simple answers please, I know one being take it to an auto electrician! Cheers Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 31, 2019 Report Share Posted October 31, 2019 the IG terminal is a battery sensing feed (says green) you wont have one on the old set up so it needs adding, not all alternators have this and it may even work ok without it Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted October 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2019 Mmm, so the old brown/green is not required? If I don't plug this in somewhere surely some of the widgets in the car may not work. I assume the brown/yellow wire goes into the Brise L yellow terminal? Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 31, 2019 Report Share Posted October 31, 2019 You,need the link to the dash warning lamp what ever colour it uses the warning lamp triggers the regulator I would hazard a guess without checking your brown green is a left over colour from a dynamo So you will need the link to the dash warning You may need a new 12v sensing feed as per the scheme you posted And the main charge wire now with a new crimped on eyelet Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted October 31, 2019 Report Share Posted October 31, 2019 The thicker wire goes to the B, as the main charge wire. The other wire is for the warning light, so connect to L Probably worth running an ignition live to the IG terminal Hope that helps. I have denso alternators, slightly different layout, on both my Triumphs. Fantastic little alternators, utterly bombproof. (one car has done 2xRBRR so 48 hrs constant use and heavily loaded for the overnight stretches, plus a couple of overnight 12hr runs, and about 20K on top of that. The other on the spit has survived a wiring fire, and many serious journeys...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted October 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2019 Thanks all, I'll buy a new cable from terminal B to battery then plug in the brown/yellow to L. For the moment I'll tape up the brown/green. To be safe I'll phone Brise and ask if IGN terminal is required or optional. It's a very compact and light alternator, Brise sell a 4si unit that is just 2kg all up! I just want to eliminate as many issues as I can, enjoy the car and do some historic rally's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted November 3, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2019 I spoke to a very helpful guy at Brise who advised on 'standard British' wiring the L terminal should be the warning light which on my Vitesse/dynamo loom is the brown/yellow cable. I then have to run a new cable from the fused side of the fuse box ie any green wire terminal, to the IG terminal. The existing 35 amp fuse should be ok? I also have to buy a 1000mm long cable from the positive battery terminal to terminal B. I opted for 16mm2 rated at 110 amp cable, the recommended 25mm2 cables are rated at 170 amps which seemed over the top for a 60 amp alternator. The only other issues are the existing 35mm long mounting spacer will have to be cut down to 16mm as the pulley offsets are different to the Lucas ACR and pivot/mounting holes in the Brise are for M8 bolts. There seems too much play if I use the original 5/16" bolt so I will get an M8 x 130 bolt. Once I have the Brise fitted I will sort out spacers for the adjustment bracket or make a new one. If this works it could be a fix for all three terminal Brise/Denso type alternators. In about a week I'll let you know if it all works!!!! If you think there is a glaring problem with the above please comment. Cheers Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpitFire6 Posted November 3, 2019 Report Share Posted November 3, 2019 (edited) Hi, they recommend a 25mm² cable. It seems to be battery sensed & not machine sensed which I would prefer. It's machine sensed. No idea if it would revert to machine sense or melt-down if sense wire was omitted. What is its regulating voltage? Cheers, Iain. Edited November 3, 2019 by Spitfire6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted November 3, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2019 The guy at Brise is old school 1960's Lucas employee so should know what he's talking about, I don't electrics are not my forte. However when all the cables arrive just to be safe I will possibly wire it in as per the drawing. Don't know why they spec 25mm2 cable as this is rated at 170amps, perhaps they are just being cautious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpitFire6 Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 Maybe they want to maximize the voltage at the load end? Every little helps under full load. All the electric motors and incandescent bulbs will be happier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 vauxhall delco all had a seperate sensing wire in the 70s and i guess many others . were as rootes lucas didnt all down to someones bright idea pete- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted November 5, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 I didn't mention this but the new Brise alternator is 60 amp output. More than the old 25 amp dyno, still not enough for in-car-entertainment systems, climate control and 3000w amp but should enable me to turn my extra spot lamps on! There is a posting on Sideways Technologies website from 'DaveNotSoSideways dated 4th Feb 2008 which gives a very good and descriptive method of converting a GT6/Vitesse/Spitfire etc from dyno to Denso type alternator. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 I remember that one, but when he started into the part about chopping the loom to get the ignition warning light system to work, I decided it wasn't for me... but the terminals, along with the large stud terminal, look roughly the same so it might not be too far off the Brise. I have a very nice Delco Remy alternator out in the garage for use on my 1200, the two large spade terminals are both marked + and the smaller is GND. I might need a bit of refreshing when it comes to fitting that one, just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 the two big 30amp are common and feed the battery ( two as some makes used this to take off the auxiliaries) the smaller 17 amp runs to the warning lamp, and its earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 I never understood why all the complicated alterations to fit a denso (or brise) alternator. I just used a ring terminal for teh battery/main feed, and the warning light to the light terminal. I have not used the 3rd connection. One alternator on my spit, the other on the Toledo. Been working fine for years. All 40A, which is plenty even running main beam plus spotlights, heater, wipers etc on overnight or longer drives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpitFire6 Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 Hi, I'm not so sure about the brise alternator being a good buy after looking at the specs. What is its output current at 14.? volts? Suspect it would be around 40 amps? You could get nearly twice the amps at less than £100? Cheers, Iain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted November 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 Hi Iain We are a dying breed apparently there were no birth registration with the name Ian or Iain last year! Please see spec sheet from Brise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted November 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 Sorry attachment didn't work if you google Brise 5si you can see spec sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted November 7, 2019 Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 Yowzers... Brise know how to charge (pun unintentional) The 40A alternator I have is £195+vat. Think I paid £40, but still available new at £80 on ebay. (and I can thoroughly recommend them, as long as you are happy to have a small sized alternator) I certainly would not entertain a rebuilt or new "lucas type" alternator these days, they are generally pants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted November 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 Clive, My experience with alternators convinced me just to pay up and buy from a proven source. The 5si alternator is also £195 + vat and I wanted peace of mind.......until it came to plugging it in! The Brise is also smaller and lighter than an ACR, I'm not so interested in originality as my car is far from standard. Had to but new fan belt from Rimmers today as the old 1088 one was way too long. The 5SI centre of spindle to pivot mounting is less than a Lucas ACR therefore requires a smaller belt. I agree rebuilding Lucas alternators is not worth the time, best to buy new and go up the pub. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky_Spit Posted November 7, 2019 Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 If still looking for a lightweight 65A Nippon Denso alternator, try agricultural machinery suppliers. I bought the one on my Spitfire, admittedly a few years ago now, for £19 in a "spring sale" from such a supplier. It is listed as being for a Kubota digger and is identical to the ones being listed online for many times the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted November 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 I bit the bullet and bought the Brise a couple of weeks ago, it looks good in the car just waiting for the smaller fan belt and I'll report back if I have it wired in correctly. I'm sure I could have got one cheaper but that ship has sailed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpitFire6 Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 Hi, I think I have seen the specs. At its rated current, it will not charge a car battery. If you plan on using it with a car battery it's probably rated at 45 amps at best? I personally like the A127 type. I destroyed the first one when I ran without an electrical connection. The present one is rated at 70 Amps & charges the battery. The cutoff is 14.5V. The alternator is mounted much lower which I suspect mitigates its heavier mass over the Brise. I am going to swing it back to the standard height though as the turnbuckle will be easier to adjust. The A127 is also machine sensed, but not difficult to make it battery sensed with all the advantages it brings. Cheers, Iain. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted November 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2019 Hi, The Brise 5siacr is rated 13.2v and 60 amp max, according to the test cert it pushes out 13.2v and 40amps at about 1500 engine rpm. The alternator spindle is about 1.85 times crank rpm. As my 'old' Lucas ACR 45 amp alternator had no problem charging the Yuasa battery I would have thought the Brise would be ok. Fan belt arrived today so I'll give it a whirl later (providing I don't drink too much wine over lunch and fall asleep!). Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpitFire6 Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 Hi Iain, I am curious to what it can charge at. 13.2 volts is clearly going to charge nothing? At least 13.8 volts on an OEM battery? Cheers, Iain. PS. My Son is called Ian. Keeping my name going. Hopefully, he will be plowing money into the family curse when I'm long dead. Wonder if he will understand how an alternator works? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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