Best Spin Off Oil Filter for MK2 Vitesse

[johny]

hmmm being 21mm longer that filter means it has to mounted more horizontally on a Vitesse whereas if you can get it more vertical theres no need for any drain valves....

[rlubikey]

40 minutes ago, johny said:

hmmm being 21mm longer that filter means it has to mounted more horizontally on a Vitesse whereas if you can get it more vertical theres no need for any drain valves.... 

I think the oil syphons back into the sump even when the filter's vertical.

From reply 66 on the Mann oil filters thread on the Club Triumph forum:-

Quote

Here are the pt nos for all the Mann double anti drain valve filters that fit a Spitfire or Herald 4 cyl engine with an adapter 5/8 UNF to 3/4 UNF

W 717/2 - 76mm wide / 100mm high
W 713/9 - 76mm wide / 100mm high
W 719/29 -76mm wide / 123mm high
W 724/1 - 76mm wide / 142mm high
W 830/3 - 84mm wide / 122mm high

Without adapter:
W 713/14 - 76mm wide /100mm high

Note that the first section of the above list require a special 5/8 UNF to 3/4 UNF adapter in a 4-cylinder engine, but the 6-cylinder spin-on conversion seems to give you this out of the box. Well, mine did.

My own research says about the first two:-

W 717/2 has a bypass valve of 1.5-bar

W 713/9 has a bypass valve of 0.8-bar

There aren't any shorter double-valve oil filters ... unless you know different! To fit one on my engine back Spit with spin-on conversion, I had to raise the near-side of the engine slightly. I did this by fitting a TR6 type engine mount and using the upper of the two studs. You don't have to cut the other one off. The extra height allows the oil filter to limbo in between the oil pressure valve and the chassis ... JUST.

Cheers, Richard

[johny]

I cant see a vertical (opening at the top obviously) filter emptying itself Richard as thats the whole point of going to a spin on. As for the bypass these days no one leaves a filter change long enough to get anywhere near blocking it😂

[daverclasper]

23 hours ago, johny said:

I cant see a vertical (opening at the top obviously) filter emptying itself Richard as thats the whole point of going to a spin on.

From my experience just of just one car (Vitesse) fitted with anti drain, not any noticeable difference if filter angled horizontal or about 45 degrees (max I can get with shorter filter and removing the bypass valve to fit), though there must a bit.

Still will rattle on first start up (and sometimes later in the day as well) unless it was cranked over at least about 10 sec's, before using choke.

I think it takes a while for the galleries to fill up anyway, aside from the filter.

Dave   

[johny]

your right Dave, the idea of keeping the filter full rather than having to fill it on start up is only an attenpt to reduce the time for the oil pressure to build up - the rest of the system still has to be filled and thats when increased bearing and pump clearances due to wear will also have an effect.... 

[Pete Lewis]

whilst pressure may be lacking in the first instance  everything thats been moving the time before will keep things pretty oily 

 

[Nick Jones]

714/2 is another.  Two non-return flaps and nice and short. 

Nick

[Guest]

Thanks Nick, that's useful to know.

I currently use FRAM PH2964 (orange) which sits at 45 degrees once installed. Never had an issue with rattles or oil pressure build up time, which is pretty immediate along with the oil light going out within a second.

Think the FRAM is about 90-95mm in length.

I'd certainly like to try the MANN alternative you have mentioned, which would bring the filter position even more upright - possibly 60 degree to the vertical. 

Just out of interest is there a negative regarding filtration ability if a filter is shorter, although I appreciate the number of filter folds is a key point concerning surface area ??

Best wishes.

Richard.

[Colin Lindsay]

38 minutes ago, classiclife said:

Just out of interest is there a negative regarding filtration ability if a filter is shorter, although I appreciate the number of filter folds is a key point concerning surface area ??

No definite idea but having changed both a Freelander and a Mondeo this week the filters - both paper inserts - are incredibly small compared to my Triumphs, so it's not about size. 

[johny]

looking at the relevant catalogues Richard theres about 6mm difference in length between your Fram and the Mann item so its not going to to make a lot of difference. Obviously a shorter filter has less filtration surface but these days our cars normally do few miles annually so the filter gets changed long before it starts to block up. Also of course non return valve(s) do cause a slight pressure drop so reducing oil flow to the engine but Ive got no idea how much this is.... 

[Nick Jones]

Filtration area has got to affect pressure drop, especially as the filter starts to clog. Oil viscosity will also have an influence as will the screening rating of the filter (ie pore size in microns).

However, actual flows are not large and I doubt anyone here is intending to run long service intervals, so I’d be surprised if the physical size makes much difference in the real world.

The original filter element is pretty tiny IIRC

 

Edit: when Alan Yeo (aka oldtuckunder, RIP) had discussions with oil manufacturers and filter manufacturers when chasing the causes of bearing failures in competition conditions, he was told several times to change the oil regularly but only to swap the filter every two or three changes as “they filter better when they’ve had some use”.

He always reckoned the key learning point though was to make sure that the oil Temperature was at least 60 - 65C before giving it any stick......

Nick

[johny]

yes I suppose some one did a check on the appropriate filter to use when the spin-on conversion was originally designed🤔

[Guest]

Thanks folks, useful information and all noted.

Regards.

Richard.

[Nick Jones]

25 minutes ago, johny said:

yes I suppose some one did a check on the appropriate filter to use when the spin-on conversion was originally designed🤔

Do you think?😯 I rather doubt it. I reckon they just took the view that there was an enormous choice out there. Which there is, especially for the TRs and big saloons where there is plenty of space to just hang straight down.

Nick

[johny]

As they have the space I wonder if the big chassis boys use the same spin-on as sold by the suppliers for all sixes or go for longer ones?

[Clive]

They tend to use a longer filter. The old fashioned idea was bigger filter gives more oil capacity. I guess that means greater time between changes and absorbs transient temp spikes better?

But much of that has gone with the higher quality of oil available.

A mondeo filter is a nice bit one. But the filter on our MX5 is tiny, size of an aerosol cap. But must be OK, the engines rarely give issues despite often having a miserable life.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

714/2 is another.  Two non-return flaps and nice and short. 

I've just ordered one as I am changing the oil soon, be interesting to compare on fitting.

Thanks again, Nick.

Regards.

Richard.

[daverclasper]

Never used to even noticed start up rattle. until I read about it. (unfortunately!).

Dave

[Colin Lindsay]

13 hours ago, daverclasper said:

Never used to even noticed start up rattle. until I read about it. (unfortunately!).

Dave

That could be one of two things - either you haven't noticed it, as with a lot of things you never pay it any attention until someone points it out and then you get paranoid, or else there isn't any, which I read recently happens on worn engines... 😮

[daverclasper]

13 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

or else there isn't any, which I read recently happens on worn engines... 😮

Not sure I get that Colin (or there some irony in there?), as the more worn the bearings=more rattle?.

[johny]

Definitely had more rattle on mine till I replaced bearings and oil pump....

[rlubikey]

I'm also going to try that shorter 714/2 filter next time. I'm convinced that the filter does drain over several days, even with two anti drain valves. If so then a smaller filter will fill quicker. As a bonus, it will be easier to fit my engine-back 6-pot.

Cheers, Richard

[Colin Lindsay]

5 hours ago, daverclasper said:

Not sure I get that Colin (or there some irony in there?), as the more worn the bearings=more rattle?.

I think that the guy who posted that originally meant that there was nothing left to rattle! 

(Of course now I can't find the site I read that on, when I was looking for examples of wear due to lack of oil for the original post!)

[johny]

4 hours ago, rlubikey said:

I'm also going to try that shorter 714/2 filter next time. I'm convinced that the filter does drain over several days, even with two anti drain valves. If so then a smaller filter will fill quicker. As a bonus, it will be easier to fit my engine-back 6-pot.

Cheers, Richard

youve got me interested now so Im going the whole hog and going to try a Mann W77 (as used on some Maseratis) - at only 59mm high I must be able to get it vertical on the Vitesse but will I soon need an engine rebuild😲

[Nick Jones]

4 hours ago, rlubikey said:

I'm also going to try that shorter 714/2 filter next time. I'm convinced that the filter does drain over several days, even with two anti drain valves. If so then a smaller filter will fill quicker. As a bonus, it will be easier to fit my engine-back 6-pot.

Cheers, Richard

They all vary. Some are better than others. The other thing to watch for is that the spin-on adapter assembly seals properly against the block. On the early versions of the adapter with a simple o-ring seal between the filtered/unfiltered chambers they came supplied with a selection of o-rings of different thicknesses and you had to do a test assembly with plasticine or similar to work out the one you needed. If you selected too fat a seal the outer one would leak very obviously. Too thin though is much less obvious and allows oil to bypass the filter, but also provides an easier drain down path which bypasses the flap.  The later adapters are more complex and supposed to self adjust.....

Nick