Overdrive options

[Colin Lindsay]

51 minutes ago, daverclasper said:

I would have thought so, but Iv'e no idea of tooling up costs verses demand?.

I couldn't get a box reconditioned recently by Mike Papworth as he no longer has the parts; he could supply second-hand, but not new.

Given that we can tool up adaptors to make modern gearboxes fit Triumphs, is it really any more difficult to get parts made for our boxes rather than having a lot of expense on making  other gearboxes fit? It's an easy option to make say an MX5 gearbox fit our cars - bit of fettling here, bellhousing adaptors, shortening propshafts, gear lever extensions or remotes etc - surely it can't be much more hassle to make gears for existing boxes? 

I was watching the in-laws making huge gears for plastic-extruding machines the other day from 3d scanning - the machine scans the old gear, plots and plans a bit then off it goes and cuts an exact copy; fascinating to watch. If they weren't so flat-out busy I'd get them to try gearbox gears...

[johny]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

i always wondered - and got shot down many times back in the day - why we didn't just go for better internals for our original boxes; surely if there was demand then suppliers would have found it cost-effective to improve our current boxes? Instead, a lot of people ditched them in favour of modern boxes regardless of where the gearstick ended up, requiring expensive adaptors and in some cases drastic surgery to the car, and so now we're in the situation of original gearboxes running out of internal parts with which to refurbish them, suppliers refusing to make the parts as they're not cost-effective, and no really suitable alternative. Surely with today's technology we must be able to make gearbox internals that are superior to the originals?

Im sure Triumph back in the day thought about further improvements for the small gearbox but its about at the limit of what could be done, especially where the laygear is concerned, as the casing is just too small. Doubtless it could be made a bit stronger with modern materials but there just isnt the demand to warrant forging new laygears at an acceptable cost. Anyway running bearings (mainshaft and layshaft) directly on the component surfaces really isnt a good idea as the gears/shaft need to have one set of characteristics and the bearing surface another plus its always going to be difficult to achieve the quality of a true bearing race....

[rlubikey]

I think the quantities involved don't justify the tooling costs. When you're making thousands of boxes, setting up a gear cutter to do the different gear sets makes it worthwhile. In any case, I think that parts require special grades of steel, finishes & hardening. It would probably be done in the Far East (cuz it's a bit cheaper) and I wouldn't hold my breath about the quality, would you?

Cheers, Richard

[Pete Lewis]

my days of gear cutting ( part of the apprenticeship)   get the ratios correct or do you want at the end of its cycle  one big tooth or two small ones 

get it right lad  !!!

pete

[68vitesse]

2 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I couldn't get a box reconditioned recently by Mike Papworth as he no longer has the parts; he could supply second-hand, but not new.

When I broke my Vitesse gearbox a couple of years ago the third gear he supplied was new but the cluster had been refurbished. Bearing surfaces bored out and sleeves fitted but apparently getting a firm to do this was getting more difficult.

The refurbished one was more expensive than the new one he originally thought I needed, a very helpful chap. As not all three rails use the same internals some of which are common to single rail which bits do you get made? cannot see demand ever justifying manufacture.

Cheapest three rail complete with J type I ever bought came from an early Dolomite 1850 less than thirty pounds but a good few years ago.

Regards

Paul

[johny]

26 minutes ago, 68vitesse said:

When I broke my Vitesse gearbox a couple of years ago the third gear he supplied was new but the cluster had been refurbished. Bearing surfaces bored out and sleeves fitted but apparently getting a firm to do this was getting more difficult.

I imagine that boring out the laygear is not without its risks as each end has to run against thrust washers so the more metal you remove the less surface left to spread the end loads....

[Nick Jones]

8 hours ago, SixasStandard said:

Thanks Nick,

It is useful to get anecdotal evidence from someone who has done a lot of long distance driving, and it confirms what I thought would likely be the case. The Supra gearbox sounds interesting, although I imagine that supply will be just as troublesome and the cost just high as that for the Type9? I wonder if there are more modern alternatives?......the Mazda MX5 gearbox is now being offered by (ironically) a company called 'Vitesse' in Hinckley, Leicestershire...…..but only for the TR cars according to their website. I'll give them a call to find out more.

Thanks for your insights.

Ian 

The Toyota box cost is now frequently into 4 figures in used, potluck condition. If you can even find one. Trouble is, they get used for converting Jags, big Healey’s and TRs....... I paid £100 for mine, but that was 15 years ago. The conversion kits are high dollar too and only partially applicable to small chassis cars. I cobbled my own together at fairly modest cost (provided I don’t price my hours). Was a significant effort but has paid off handsomely.

i do have both RX8 5 speed and MX5 mk 2 boxes in the garage. Neither is going in a small chassis Triumph without mammoth effort IMO. Also some possibilities from Suzuki but care is needed as some have 1:1 5th gear and all are a bit feeble being designed for 1300/1600 engines. Reckon they’ll be tougher than the Triumph effort though

Nick

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

The Toyota box cost is now frequently into 4 figures in used, potluck condition. If you can even find one. Trouble is, they get used for converting Jags, big Healey’s and TRs....... I paid £100 for mine, but that was 15 years ago.

Hello Nick,

Very true indeed. 

I picked up a spot-on Toyota W58 5speed g/box for my Daimler V8-250 earlier in the year; as I am converting it from auto to manual. It cost £800 and I thought that was okay under the circumstances - they are a sought after box and pretty bullet proof. I spoke to a Lotus company in Devon and they echoed that sentiment - in fact they gave up stocking significant spares as they never had to sell any !!

With a 5th speed ratio of 0.783 it was a no-brainer.

Regards.

Richard.

[SixasStandard]

This suggestion may offend the sensibilities of a few people...…….but has anyone investigated the possibility of fitting BMW 3 Series/ Z3 gearboxes into a small chassis Triumph? I'm not basing this suggestion on ANY knowledge of the units concerned........beyond the fact of the relatively modest proportions of the earlier cars, the fact that they retain traditional longitudinal layout with rear wheel drive, 4 and 6 cylinder power plants, and capacities spanning those found in the Vitesse. The more modern BMW boxes also include 6 speed versions, and those capable of handling the high performance of the 'M' range cars. With so many 3 Series cars sold over the years you'd think that the supply of used boxes would be good...….although I imagine anything with a BMW badge (used or otherwise) would be expensive.

Like I said...….just a question, which I'd be surprised hadn't been asked before at some point.

Ian   

[johny]

Trouble with modern gearboxes is that the design has changed radically in that the bell housing is now integral to the casing so its very difficult to fit the Triumph one instead. Alternatively an adaptor to fit the new bell housing to the block is going to very complicated and anyway this increases the gearbox length and makes the input shaft too short to engage with the flywheel. Then theres the gearchange mechanism which is now usually cable operated from a remote lever so youve got to find somewhere solid to mount this and a suitable route for the cables. Then on top of that, as I said earlier, I think your going to struggle to find the right ratios, for example the first gear ratio for a 318i is showing as 4.32-1 and the Vitesse 2.65-1. Thats a big difference☹️ 

 

[daverclasper]

On 26/11/2019 at 15:08, johny said:

I imagine that boring out the laygear is not without its risks as each end has to run against thrust washers so the more metal you remove the less surface left to spread the end loads....

Mike Papworth had that done to mine a few years ago when he rebuilt my O/D box as lay shaft bearing was breaking up.  I assumed the sleeve would be flush with the end of the cluster. I think he also fitted a longer needle bearing, though can't exactly remember. This box had been rebuilt by him about 15000 miles previous (way before I bought the car). Don't know if was using re manufactured layshafts then that caused an early failure. When he rebuilt it was apparently with a good second hand one.   

[johny]

yes I think thats whats done and hopefully, if using a layshaft with the best possible surface treatment, it'll have a long life. However its still not a patch on a design with the layshaft running on some beefy roller bearings....  

[Guest]

Hello,

As the Toyota W58 g/box has been mentioned in this thread as a possible alternative, I thought I'd pop a few photos on to show the size difference (not much really) of the 2x units. The W58 is waiting for the Daimler engine rebuild to conclude and the Vitesse unit is now ready to be refitted. Both units have been aligned from the g/box rearwards and not from the bell housings being side by side.

I should point out that the W58 is ready to be fitted, hence the Daimler bell housing and the repositioned gear stick.

Regards.

Richard.

[johny]

yes looks like that could be fitted in a small chassis without too many problems but 1st gear would still be pretty redundant as its 3.285 -1... 

[Nick Jones]

You can......

Snug though.

The ratios are fine, even first.  I do have a 3.63 diff.  Which is what Triumph would have fitted if they'd thought about it.

Nick

[Nick Jones]

L -> R  Ford T9 with long input shaft, Toyota W58 & Triumph, with J-type and longer adapter plate (already a very close fit at the back)

The Ford had some trimming to move the gear stick base forward.  75mm IIRC.  Not enough to come out of the same hole but does miss the handbrake.  The Toyota solution comes out in the same place as the Triumph.  I made mine but there is a Toyota one the right length, though not fitted to anything that came to the UK officially.

[Nick Jones]

11 hours ago, SixasStandard said:

The more modern BMW boxes also include 6 speed versions, and those capable of handling the high performance of the 'M' range cars. With so many 3 Series cars sold over the years you'd think that the supply of used boxes would be good...….although I imagine anything with a BMW badge (used or otherwise) would be expensive.

There are MANY variants of BMW 'boxes.  Even a few with detachable bell housings, but they are from older (70 and 80s) stuff and expensive.  Quite alot of them also are designed to be used with a tall diff and have 1:1 5th.  No good.  More recent stuff has more hopeful ratios (sometimes), but also an integral bell housing with a very unhelpful shape.  They are often really cheap, but making them fit will be hard.

Nick

[johny]

Dare I say it that the easiest/cheapest option is probably a complete engine and gearbox together swop😃

[Guest]

9 hours ago, johny said:

Dare I say it that the easiest/cheapest option is probably a complete engine and gearbox together swop😃

I'm not so sure johny, that then comes with it's own conversion issues - but yes it is an option I agree.

The original request was O/D options and I think the OP, currently without a car, will be better to secure an OE O/D unit and make the necessary conversion from that point.

These units do come up and keeps the car fully Triumph which is a bonus, one just has to be patient !!

Regards.

Richard.

[Nick Jones]

11 hours ago, johny said:

Dare I say it that the easiest/cheapest option is probably a complete engine and gearbox together swop😃

Maybe on a 4 cylinder car.  The point (for me) of a owning 6 cylinder car is the smooth 6 and the noise.  The Triumph 6 is a very compact unit and you'll struggle to find any other 6 that will fit in a Vitesse/GT6, let alone a straight 6.

I've seen a number of MX5 engine/box transplants that work.  Also a number of Ford engine/box transplants that work and one or two Toyota engine/box transplants that work.  I've never seen a completed BMW one.  The engines, even the 4s are quite large and sit canted well over to the right which much make things harder on a RHD car.

I agree with Richard that one of the OE boxes is the easiest route.  Ford T9 is probably the next easiest route.  Neither will be especially cheap unless you have a lucky find.  They are out there still. For me, the major issue with the Triumph route is that so many of the gearboxes are shot and may have already been rebuilt several times.  Durable they are not.

Nick

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

Maybe on a 4 cylinder car.  The point (for me) of a owning 6 cylinder car is the smooth 6 and the noise. 

Even on four cylinders, for me, it's the whole package - engine, gearbox, the lot as original as possible otherwise what's the point?

I'd guess that you can fit almost any engine or gearbox with sufficient surgery and adaptation, but you lose a lot of the driving experience. It has to be something more than just efficiency or availability of spares. It's a personal thing, and the choice of any car owner, but for me I'll try to keep the nostalgia factor of 1960s engineering and overcome the obstacles.

I'm taking a Herald block for reboring later this morning and no doubt someone in that company will ask why I don't just fit a Mazda engine or the like.

[68vitesse]

3 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Even on four cylinders, for me, it's the whole package - engine, gearbox, the lot as original as possible otherwise what's the point?

I'd guess that you can fit almost any engine or gearbox with sufficient surgery and adaptation, but you lose a lot of the driving experience. It has to be something more than just efficiency or availability of spares. It's a personal thing, and the choice of any car owner, but for me I'll try to keep the nostalgia factor of 1960s engineering and overcome the obstacles.

I bought my Vitesse because of what it is not what I could turn it into, I have spare gearboxes and overdrives, bought when I saw them not when I needed them, some rebuilt. If I couldn't keep the heart of the car near enough standard not sure I would keep it, but to each their own after all it is your car.

Regards

Paul

[johny]

yes but if you cant get good gearbox spares it might be a choice of driving with a shot one (which can be a pretty miserable experience) or swopping to complete alternative engine/box even if it isnt as characterful....

[Nick Jones]

I don’t have any hang-ups (obviously) about swapping transmission parts for thing that don’t break, but I’d think long and hard before swapping the engines, especially the 6.

Nick

[Guest]

Hello Nick,

Out of interest, who does your propshaft work for mods and balancing ??

Thanks.

Richard.