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Brake and clutch m/cyl support brackets


mark powell
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For my Midge rebuild, I purchased a pair of these...  Part no. 119583 for the clutch and 146413 for the brake.  There doesn't seem to be any variation on the brake part number as supplied by the usual suppliers, with the exception of Canleys who list the 119583 part no. for both cylinders. (these are plain brackets without the strengthening web for the brake m/cyl)  

  I wanted the strengthened item so ordered the two brackets above, which I discovered don't match, with different mounting angle and height. 

I spoke to the suppliers, who seemed at a loss as to why it was a problem. 

I will wind up de-rusting and painting the old one. 

  Rant over...

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I recently had to "play" with master cylinder brackets, and I think there are 3 variations of the brake one. Indeed something to do with heights and angles. 

As long as it fits/doesn't foul it will work! But I bet the repro ones are for the spitfires, so should fit everything.

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1 hour ago, NonMember said:

The difference in angles is not between brake and clutch, it's between Herald and all others.

So the Herald brake bracket is the same as the clutch, or different? 

All mine are the same, clutch and brake; I've just lined up nearly a dozen spares plus two new stainless steel versions and they're all the same angle. If they're meant to be different I'm in trouble...

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15 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

So the Herald brake bracket is the same as the clutch, or different?

I think they're the same. I had a set of four brackets from two cars - a Herald 13/60 that we scrapped and a Spitfire I was re-building. Thinking they were all the same, I had two of them blast cleaned and powder coated. When I came to fit them, the brake cylinder fouled, so I dug out the other two and compared. I had what certainly appeared to be three of one type and one of the other - the odd one being the Spitfire brake one. I think, though I'd have to double check, that I concluded my Vitesse has two the same; it's only the Spitfire and GT6 which need a different angle.

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17 hours ago, NonMember said:

I think they're the same. I had a set of four brackets from two cars - a Herald 13/60 that we scrapped and a Spitfire I was re-building. Thinking they were all the same, I had two of them blast cleaned and powder coated. When I came to fit them, the brake cylinder fouled, so I dug out the other two and compared. I had what certainly appeared to be three of one type and one of the other - the odd one being the Spitfire brake one. I think, though I'd have to double check, that I concluded my Vitesse has two the same; it's only the Spitfire and GT6 which need a different angle.

I can't find any definitive proof; not one of the reference photos I have show any clear difference in the angles, or else they're hidden behind the wiper motor. John Thomason's guide states that all models of GT6 were the same throughout production, and the photos of Mk1 and Mk2 master cylinders show identical brackets, whilst the Mk3 has the same master cylinder so presumably would not require any alteration to the bracket. His photo of the revised late Mk3 - which would fit in with the timeline of the Spitfire Mkiv - may have different brackets, but the photo isn't clear enough to be certain and it's such a small difference.

He mentions that in the Spitfire mkiv the brake master cylinder was suddenly manufactured with holes in each side, but has no reason why - that appears to be one in Mark's original post. Master cylinders, certainly, changed, but no word of the brackets. There are definitely at least two different angles, but it would be interesting to confirm their applications. I have a remanufactured set in stainless and they're definitely angled - see photo - but it would be interesting to find out why the maker  decided he needed the difference, and what it was based on originally.

Certainly, with Heralds, I'd be inclined to agree with Rabbit - they're all the same, and I have far too many of them too.

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Mark, I don't know about the Herald, but on the Spit the brake and clutch brackets are the same angle, but as you know, the brake has the extra bracing. All until the final 18 months or so of production when they went to dual circuit braking with of course a dual circuit master cylinder. To squeeze this under the bonnet they had to use a different bracket to hold the m/c at a lower angle, and I presume this is the lower, steeper angle part you've been given. They also had to add a small recess in the Spitfire bulkhead, much like the one you'll see behind the battery - USA Spits had dual circuit  braking much earlier. I don't know off hand about USA m/c brackets, there might be another variation there. It should all be in the parts catalogues. Then of course there's Heralds & Vitesses.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Richard

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2 hours ago, rlubikey said:

Mark, I don't know about the Herald, but on the Spit the brake and clutch brackets are the same angle,

I do not believe that's true. The Herald bracket with a UK Spitfire Mk3 brake master cylinder fouls the bonnet. The clutch bracket is the same as a Herald, where both are the same.

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So if it's simply a case of making more room for the larger reservoir on the Spitfire Mk3 onwards (larger reservoir but same bore of piston) then they're required for Spitfires with that type of master cylinder, but optional on any of the other cars in the range. Heralds have loads of room so are unaffected. For peace of mind I just needed to clear up that it was not for any braking efficiency, increased pedal travel, wear or other factor.

 

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Oh well, it seems then that you can't get the Herald specification master cylinder bracket anymore.

 I've cleaned up and painted the old one, so at least the m/cyls will not look cock eyed!  It's quite important that the brake m/cyl is at the higher level, as there is an air duct for the heating running close under the reservoir. 

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