Iain T Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 Hi, I currently have a brass carrier fitted by PO to my Mk2 Vitesse which has some nasty wear depressions in the flanges where the arm fits so not ideal. I assume this is because the brass is not of the correct spec as it needs to be hard. Any thoughts as to replacing it with a steel one from, sharp intake of breath, one of our esteemed spares suppliers. Also my brass one does not have a rolled pin in the flanges to stop it rotating on the actuating arm, is the pin a good idea or just a load of bunkum? While replacing the carrier I might as well change the bearing, from memory it has a radius on the face, again flat or radius and where to get quality bearings. Any suggestions please Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 Hello Iain, With some friends, I recently replaced the clutch thrust bearing on my Vitesse - I went for RHP and have to say it is spot-on. Previously fitted a genuine NOS B&B clutch kit but I think the bearing was past its shelf life; rest of the kit was fine hence going for the RHP item to replace the B&B. The part number is GRB209G and cost just under £30 via "Shop 4 Autoparts" based in Coventry - they also sell via eBay. Sorry, cannot offer any helpful advice on the carrier. Good luck. Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 the anti rotation pin or dimple is to prevent rotational wear on the front cover making ridges and giving a rough operation most throwouts are a brass mix material so if its reclaimable fit a pin so the fork wears in a new place . throw out bearings should be 19mm thick many are only 15mm and that upsets the angle of the throwout lever , to correct some of this add a washer under the push in spherical post but rhp will be correct thickness . pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted February 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 Thanks Richard, found the RHP bearing at the site you mentioned. I have been Googling for ages for RHP 34W 1 1/2 (I believe this is the correct bearing) and got a load of rubbish! Pete, as you suggest I think I'll fit a rolled pin in my brass carrier to stop it rotating. Last question, I inspected the clutch slave cylinder and the bore looks very badly machined. I have looked on line and everyone seems to sell the same ali rubbish does anyone sell properly made ones? The only reason for asking is there is no feel or bite in my clutch so I'm going though the possible culprits. FYI I have a new proper B&B cover and virtually new plate. Thanks as always Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 Hello Iain, Will be worth giving David Kingerley a call, he deals in genuine NOS Girling and Lockheed etc, along with repro parts; he will offer both options if he has them. Have used him many times and he trades at all the big events, including Stoneleigh a couple of weekends ago. I know him quite well and a very decent chap plus helpful - 07977.914.088 https://www.obsoletecarspares.co.uk/ Regards. Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted February 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 Hi Richard, I'll give him a call tomorrow, again I would be fumbling around without the Forums invaluable help! Thank you Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 if you have no feel your disk may be thicker from a coil cover this looses pedal load and feel the coil disc is thicker than a diaphragm disc you nip the lining in a vice and then measure how thick, sorry manuals out in the cold will look later if needed there again some terrible things happen to a clutch cover if its been re conditioned ... badly pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted February 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 Pete, not sure I understand. Bear in mind I have type 9 gearbox so the plate is from unknown source but probably dolly 1850 to cater for the Ford first motion shaft spline. The new cover is obviously for a vitesse. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 Ive seen the subject of clutch thrust bearings in a few threads recently and why brass was used has been asked. There must have been a good reason and I wonder if it was to facilitate it sliding along the oil seal housing tube.... Anyway as Pete says, using some sort of anti-rotation measure in varying positions should allow them to last almost indefinitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 dissimilar metals wont seize so brassy stuff used in a un lubricated dry dusty environment to avoid sticking so its brass? carrier on cast iron ? front cover used by many marques , pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerH Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 Hi Folks, not sure if this is relevant. On the early TR clutches the bearing carrier (BC) was made of Phosphour Bronze and as such is quite hard and will withstand many operations of the normal clutch fork with round spigots. On later TR's (4A onwards) the BE was steel. This was not affected by the round fork spigots. Recently Brass BC's have been supplied and these do not work well with the round spigot - they quickly dig in and you lose fork travel. These BC's should be used with a slipper pad fork. On the early BC's there was no anti rotation pin AND the fork was fully withdrawn by the external spring on the slave cylinder. The later BC's used a self adjusting slave that allowed the BC and bearing to remain in contact (only just) with the diaphragm fingers. Plus - the RHP bearing is quite stiff to rotate from cold (fully loaded with grease) . So when operated the RHP bearing and fingers slide against each other causing finger wear. By allowing the BC to rotate the spin up of the bearing assembly is quicker so less wear takes place. However allowing a steel on steel part to rotate on each other without lubrication is a recipe for disaster. Thank fully this rotation would be for a very very short time. What would I do !! If using a steel BC I would use the 'anti rotation pin' AND the external return spring n the slave If using the BRONZE BC I would not use the pin but would use the return spring. DO NOT use the BRASS BC unless you use the slipper pads instead of the round fork spigots. Just my thoughts Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted February 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 Roger, thanks for advice. What do you mean by slipper pads? Is there a standard return spring that can be fitted to a Vitesse? Thanks Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 there are some posts on here with ideas to solve the budgie squeal from bearing skidding to either add load or make some free play , ( which needs a back stop adding) the spring in the slave is there to maintain throw out contact with the fingers . some bearings are stiff and you get the squeaks , misaligned concentricity of throwout to fingers will also cause noise and finger wear pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted February 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 OK sorry misread return spring is in the slave..... Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerH Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 16 hours ago, Iain T said: Roger, thanks for advice. What do you mean by slipper pads? Is there a standard return spring that can be fitted to a Vitesse? Thanks Iain Hi Iain, these are flat pads rather than the round spigot. I believe the big saloon cars use them. Chris Witor sell them. Not sure if they are a direct fit to any fork. https://www.chriswitor.com/proddetail.php?prod=159003PB Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.vitesse Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 2 hours ago, RogerH said: Hi Iain, these are flat pads rather than the round spigot. I believe the big saloon cars use them. Chris Witor sell them. Not sure if they are a direct fit to any fork. https://www.chriswitor.com/proddetail.php?prod=159003PB Roger The Vitesse and GT6 have a different clutch release set-up than the Big Saloon. So this may not apply? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerH Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 42 minutes ago, dave.vitesse said: The Vitesse and GT6 have a different clutch release set-up than the Big Saloon. So this may not apply? Dave Quite so Dave. They can be made to fit the TR's but haven't a clue of other TRiumphs. Roger 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 the pin is a reasonable fit in the vit /gt6 carrier a slipper like the TR/2000 wont fit in the groove 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted February 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 Thanks all, rather than complicate things I'll refurb the arm with new spigots. When I take the block out (heads off already) I'll take a look at components, I need to get the clutch feel back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 the basic idea is the pins on the lever operate in an arch, this should follow the centre line of the front cover it slides on, the VIT/GT6 lever angle relies on the height of its spherical post and the thickness of the release bearing , wear and tear on the pins and the throwout/carrier all affect the smooth operation , if the pin operating arc is below the Centre line then the carrier can pitch and if a sloppy fit is not then concentric with the fingers and all this leads to lost travel/ reduced leverage / poor pedal loads and more poor design of clutch operation plagued most makes until more modern have a concentric release so operation is even central and not variable Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Truman Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 must agree Pete modern concentric release arrangement is what I'd look at I think Iain is using a type 5 box so it might simplify set up I know I'm considering the concentric set up of I retain the 1850 Dolly single J type rail box instead of putting the internals into a 3 rail box as it won't require the bastardization of the Vitesse clutch lever and not as much buggerisation of the Vit bell housing it will only need a top hat arrangement for the selector rod. there are quite a few examples where concentric release set ups have been used in Gt6/Vit clutch's where the lever has been damaged too much & generally there NLA. Peter T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 guess its not to difficult to make a hardwood or whatever platform to mount a modern on the front face of the box after all it dosnt need to be a brick sh1t house Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.vitesse Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 If the locating pins are worn and you can't get a replacement arm then the pins can be rotated my 180 degrees to an un-worn part. Not the best of solutions, but bearing in mind the use the cars gets it will keep it on the road. The pins should be tight to start with, but may require re-tightening after rotation. re-rivet. I agree with Pete and Peter, a lot of energy is lost on the working surfaces due to the design. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted February 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 Interesting, I like the concentric release arrangement and as Peter says there are a few type 9 off the shelf conversions. The only issue is I have a Triumph bell housing and would need to measure/shim to get the correct clearances. It is definitely a better engineered solution and looks to work with the standard 5/8" master cylinder. I'll have a look on the forum etc to see if anyone has a blow by blow account. Thanks again Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/7483-concentric-clutch-slave-cylinder-for-a-triumph-gt6/ this mentions saab but most others use one now i sure when i ran warranty ( back a bit now) AP made the ones on the Master vans all inclusive ready filled just fit and play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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