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Best exhaust for Herald 1360 with Mk4 Spitfire 1300 engine?


jiggawhat2k
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Hi, posted this on a different forum but they suggested I come here.

Had a search around but couldn't find the answer I was looking for so hope someone might be able to help! 
        
Newish to Triumphs generally (had a Spitfire 1500 for a brief time), I now have a Herald 1360 saloon that I'm putting a 1300 mk4 Spit engine (with twin SUs) in at the moment. 
        
 I want to free up the breathing a bit and add a 421 exhaust manifold and a full bigger exhaust system (maybe 2 inch?) but not sure whether I should be using a Spit exhaust manifold and add a Herald/Vitesse system to it, or if that would even fit? Or can I just use a Spitfire full system? I'd like to fit it myself and don't have pipe bending equipment so ideally bolt-on.
        
 The aftermarket manifolds (eg Moss Bros, Rimmerbros) I've seen often have different ways of attaching to the main system (eg some have 2 pipes going into a Y join). 
        
  Any ideas from people who have got Spitfire engines in their Herald, what performance exhaust manifold and full exhaust system should I buy? Or should I go custom?
        
  Thanks very much for the advice!
        
 For those interested, pics attached (being sent away for cage), Herald now has a custom FIA half cage, Weller wheels, MGF seats and Safety Devices harnesses, Gaz adjustable coilovers front and Gaz dampers rear, freshly installed brake system (braided hoses and drilled discs/Mintex pads, new calipers, new lines all round), refreshed and fully undersealed chassis, original body and paint (let's say it has patina and lots of filler... Leaving it that way for now), getting it ready for autosprints in the Spring/Summer! Rear lowering block and twin carb 1300 engine still to do (has a broken 1500 currently in there), interior going back in as much as possible...

WhatsApp Image 2020-02-13 at 9.21.34 AM (1).jpeg

WhatsApp Image 2020-02-13 at 9.21.34 AM (2).jpeg

WhatsApp Image 2020-02-13 at 9.21.34 AM.jpeg

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Hi jiggawwhat!   (real name , please?  Can't go on calling you that!)

Nice car!   Hope it's as good inside and underneath.  (but lose the Morrisey sticker!)

 

What exhaust?   The original exhaust pipe was about 1.25" in diameter, really weedy.   Your tail ppie looks more like 2" which would be good if it's like that all the way forward.

The car looks as if it has been in competition of some sort - what's your plan?

John

 

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Re exhaust. Realistically you are not looking for north of pprox 100bhp. So the "ideal" exhaust will be a 4>2>1 manifold, along with possibly a vitesse mk2 pipe and vitesse sports rear box, or even the canley classics vitesse mk2 rear box (larger bore than std, flows pretty well and certainly enough for 120bhp I reckon)

If you want to have a play, the vitesse centre pipe will fit to the spit 421 manifold (but check with supplier, canleys are good at this stuff) and you could try a cherry bomb or similar on teh back. Or whatever you have fitted at the moment...

Obviously care may be needed for noise limits? 

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Thanks guys the replies (John, my real name is Jim!). 

Underneath is in great nick, body was taken off and chassis fully refurbished at much cost to the previous owner (who then sold it unfinished and having never driven). 

Got the car totally standard, I've been driving it just on the streets for a bit but the 1500 engine was never right and has fully seized (suspect a poor rebuild, it always ran hot even with big rad and after I added an oil cooler). 

Been building it to compete in sprints in Spring to start with, a few track days and then ultimately hill climbs. 

The exhaust is just an aftermarket backbox (cherrybomb, good spot! Always wanted one as a teen, finally living the dream) that I fitted as the original was rotten, the rest of the exhaust is standard, even the manifold. Hence wanting to switch it out (happy to either keep the back box or go for a full new system with manifold). 

Agree Clive it'll not push more than 100bhp, thanks for the advice and yes need to be careful with noise limits (Bedford autodrome is my nearest track and they're strict!). 

Thanks both will have a look at what is around based on your suggestions. 

Cheers! 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Steve P said:

I have/had a similar spec 13/60 to yours,Spit MK 4 engine,4 into 1 manifold,twin SU`s.

I used a Vitesse system,gives a good raspy note but not too much drone (mine is convertible).Coupled with an overdrive box and 3:63 diff  it`s a really nice driver.

Steve

Thanks Steve, so you got a vitesse 1600 system including vitesse 1600 manifold? That fit to the spit engine? Or was it a spit manifold with a vitesse 2000/2500 system? 

Cheers! 

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Anyone know if the Spitfire 1300 4-2-1 will fit around the herald chassis etc? If it does I'd go for something like:

http://www.jamespaddock.co.uk/extractor-manifold-ssteel-1300-1500-models-2

Picture of EXTRACTOR MANIFOLD S/STEEL SPIT 1300/1500(JPR476)

At the front.

Straight centre section with maybe a resonator to tone it down a bit?

8ncUeOAmCQMq_0QGKL_rdTgX5SkfE17h4JzK5eaKZf4ikISm86RPrjy9FRvIoUpa2sHBwLhKIXGNN6Og3PKFfF5OQ72RkcBg_xsAdrzZIhravNqedQt1nP7N6GlJuDj6hANYnLUl_t2xezr6L_FDBbCVEmLNAQcLLFZUZsSExyeALGpSERMlejFjhWlT4yb9uiXzBeeji7RzXdzQRkiraQdvBebG05P6YhH7CAzQwVeb3Hb1gx_GaAo92n0xwsxTDU6EJhFB97rW82U6fDiW9b14k6NG5cV_Y_frgRpFOACJzyXo8AwiP5rKUlB0vAqaT0o4GWUbm_t48VbLTDv0zybyiDG48iXP9t7H-v-QEL7Auqo2JTsrq2f66Setg3Eg6iZsYxtOs35AY3lzpjMc2A6iwBLYsfQtFdacwmptIlwOa7QzwLC6pGfZYsJ1rLlcwLIluJrx9-Zn6BOYxC4CxkBPtf_cDn-ccZ2CeUFNdWQqlgZ47VueCeZBsVB_zt_AbZlDjdvv4G4RvbSWapSd1S_dNdnoEJYcsgu8qPR5u0LgatgYFIMd41DCFQ4dQZ8IzfkP6y62XF8yxRKtgzsQM5VXUjxQD637MxsxD9Xhx2jd5JBrp5vaSsdVp0wmudculFzOLGEmjfq9Ndsg-o2NsbzUFKmjuP01Onr4YOgohPi8UXuNLD42KA4=w370-h657-no

Then whatever you fancy (nice and free flowing) at the back?

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The Spitfire extractor manifold should fit a Herald as the chassis is essentially the same in that area. I think the Herald may mount the engine a fraction higher but that won't be a problem. It may prove beneficial to "relieve" the lip of the main rail just where the pipes come down - it often is on Spitfires.

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13 hours ago, yorkshire_spam said:

Anyone know if the Spitfire 1300 4-2-1 will fit around the herald chassis etc? If it does I'd go for something like:

http://www.jamespaddock.co.uk/extractor-manifold-ssteel-1300-1500-models-2

Picture of EXTRACTOR MANIFOLD S/STEEL SPIT 1300/1500(JPR476)

At the front.

Straight centre section with maybe a resonator to tone it down a bit?

8ncUeOAmCQMq_0QGKL_rdTgX5SkfE17h4JzK5eaKZf4ikISm86RPrjy9FRvIoUpa2sHBwLhKIXGNN6Og3PKFfF5OQ72RkcBg_xsAdrzZIhravNqedQt1nP7N6GlJuDj6hANYnLUl_t2xezr6L_FDBbCVEmLNAQcLLFZUZsSExyeALGpSERMlejFjhWlT4yb9uiXzBeeji7RzXdzQRkiraQdvBebG05P6YhH7CAzQwVeb3Hb1gx_GaAo92n0xwsxTDU6EJhFB97rW82U6fDiW9b14k6NG5cV_Y_frgRpFOACJzyXo8AwiP5rKUlB0vAqaT0o4GWUbm_t48VbLTDv0zybyiDG48iXP9t7H-v-QEL7Auqo2JTsrq2f66Setg3Eg6iZsYxtOs35AY3lzpjMc2A6iwBLYsfQtFdacwmptIlwOa7QzwLC6pGfZYsJ1rLlcwLIluJrx9-Zn6BOYxC4CxkBPtf_cDn-ccZ2CeUFNdWQqlgZ47VueCeZBsVB_zt_AbZlDjdvv4G4RvbSWapSd1S_dNdnoEJYcsgu8qPR5u0LgatgYFIMd41DCFQ4dQZ8IzfkP6y62XF8yxRKtgzsQM5VXUjxQD637MxsxD9Xhx2jd5JBrp5vaSsdVp0wmudculFzOLGEmjfq9Ndsg-o2NsbzUFKmjuP01Onr4YOgohPi8UXuNLD42KA4=w370-h657-no

Then whatever you fancy (nice and free flowing) at the back?

Cheers very helpful. Way cheaper than Rimmer/Moss too, excellent. 

Will hurt the credit card and report back on progress.

Car being delivered back from roll cage place tomorrow, excited to see it. Then front seat fitting (from MGF that I'm dying all black, hope it looks not crap), fitting the 1300 in a couple of weeks too (plus new exhaust) then away. Hopefully.

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I'm with Mr Spam. Get the jp manifold and collector (cheap enough for what it is) then make up your own centre/rear section or get an exhaust fabricator involved. 

As a note to the jp unit, i had to modify the left flange to get it to fit between the exhaust threads on the head.

My car is a mk4 1300 btw.

Likeing the dash btw.

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11 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Jim,

Is that exuberant remote oil filter and cooler a new addition?  It's there is one pic and not in the next!

And WOW!  The length of Aeroquip hose!!  Must have cost a  bomb, and will increase your oil capacity by a couple of litres!  

John

Lol yes recent addition and it's obnoxious I know! Originally was going to be even more obnoxious and mount on the front grille JDM style but chickened out (for the best in hindsight)... 

Is the first classic I've ever built/maintained so I'm using it to learn, was fun to relocate the oil filter and fit the cooler. Does mean I'm basically buying every tricket and fitting it.

Wasn't expensive, fleabay purchase - read some reviews and watched a couple of people fit the same kit and no complaints of leaks so far (and none for me so far!).

Here it is for sale in USA (G-Plus), used to be for sale new on ebay but can't find it anymore https://www.amazon.com/stores/G-PLUS/OilCoolerOilCoolerKit_AUTOMOTIVE/page/688119C1-2EB4-4AC8-82F0-27D5D14BF0D5?productGridPageIndex=2 . All fitted well, better quality that I expected!

 

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39 minutes ago, Simons3 said:

I'm with Mr Spam. Get the jp manifold and collector (cheap enough for what it is) then make up your own centre/rear section or get an exhaust fabricator involved. 

As a note to the jp unit, i had to modify the left flange to get it to fit between the exhaust threads on the head.

My car is a mk4 1300 btw.

Likeing the dash btw.

Thanks for the tip 👍will assume it won't fit (have just bought it woohoo).

Cheers the wood dash is a bit tatty but I like that it shows it's age. Added the stopwatch (genuine old Lucas off Ebay!) as there is a nasty hole in the dash, covering with a bit of stainless sheet and rivets was an easier solution than replacing dash or re-covering. Inspiration from this chap: https://drivetribe.com/p/1968-triumph-herald-cafe-racer-LX6nIKMQQAm8oaeRaaCE2A?iid=O6fmavj_SKi3693PXfv1nw

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15 hours ago, Steve P said:

I have/had a similar spec 13/60 to yours,Spit MK 4 engine,4 into 1 manifold,twin SU`s.

I used a Vitesse system,gives a good raspy note but not too much drone (mine is convertible).Coupled with an overdrive box and 3:63 diff  it`s a really nice driver.

Steve

I've still got the original Herald diff in there (I think 4.11?) which was refurbed previously, not sure if it'll be too highly strung for the 1300 spit engine?

Also not entirely sure how much power the original diff in a 1360 can take, altho unlikely to break the 100bhp mark anytime soon.

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For further reference the centre resonator I used hooked up to the JP front section using straight pipe and some straight reducer section was:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jetex-Universal-Exhaust-Round-Silencer/dp/B006J67HCS

I just bent the chassis flange down to make space (that's a Spitfire chassis though... no idea how similar/different a Herald is around that area.

 

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20 minutes ago, yorkshire_spam said:

For further reference the centre resonator I used hooked up to the JP front section using straight pipe and some straight reducer section was:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jetex-Universal-Exhaust-Round-Silencer/dp/B006J67HCS

I just bent the chassis flange down to make space (that's a Spitfire chassis though... no idea how similar/different a Herald is around that area.

 

Interesting, you think it is much quieter vs straight pipe?

Was the reducer to take it from 2" to 1.75" for the jetex?

Cheers

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1 minute ago, jiggawhat2k said:

Interesting, you think it is much quieter vs straight pipe?

Was the reducer to take it from 2" to 1.75" for the jetex?

Cheers

I'll check what I used, but mine is a 1500 with manifold/pipes to suit - not sure what the size of the 1300 version is.

So... in 2015 I did a 2K miles European trip in the Spitfire including some miles on the Autobahns at around 70 to 80 mph the Spitfire either left you with ringing in your ears (like you'd been to a rock concert in the 1980s) OR you had to wear ear plugs. 

Using the Elvington track rules I measured the noise level (I think it's 1 meter back from the tailpipe at a 45 degree angle, but I could be wrong)  - it was breaking the db level at tick over! (Rule is at 2K I think)
Anyway, since then I fitted the centre resonator and did another European run in 2017. It's better, but not quiet. It means that ear plugs are no longer mandatory at 70mph+ speeds. To be honest it hasn't taken as much off as I hoped, but it's enough to be useful.

 

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Side issue I know, but for oil cooler hose, a MUCH cheaper option is anywhere that sells parts for industrial hydraulics.    My local will make up hoses to length, with swaged on fittings that will take the thousands of psi in, say, a JCB, so no probs with oil pressure.     Careful measurement ( a length of old garden hose pipe is useful) is essential, as always, and also the alignment of the fittings, as they don't swivel!    But only about £30 for a pair, that are a bit shorter than yours!

 

On noise, I see that Elvington has been in a lot of gtrouble about it, so I expect their regs parallel those of Motorsport UK, which are for  cars are for 105dB, but at HALF a meter and angled away.   See the Blue Book, pp.150-153 at https://www.motorsportuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Blue-Book-2020-1.pdf

John

 

John

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35 minutes ago, yorkshire_spam said:

I'll check what I used, but mine is a 1500 with manifold/pipes to suit - not sure what the size of the 1300 version is.

So... in 2015 I did a 2K miles European trip in the Spitfire including some miles on the Autobahns at around 70 to 80 mph the Spitfire either left you with ringing in your ears (like you'd been to a rock concert in the 1980s) OR you had to wear ear plugs. 

Using the Elvington track rules I measured the noise level (I think it's 1 meter back from the tailpipe at a 45 degree angle, but I could be wrong)  - it was breaking the db level at tick over! (Rule is at 2K I think)
Anyway, since then I fitted the centre resonator and did another European run in 2017. It's better, but not quiet. It means that ear plugs are no longer mandatory at 70mph+ speeds. To be honest it hasn't taken as much off as I hoped, but it's enough to be useful.

 

hmmm sounds like I should add one (at least one!!), want to use it for track days plus a European trip is planned. Loud is amusing for a short blast but gets embarrassing when I have to park at the house and wake up the kids on the street...

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10 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Side issue I know, but for oil cooler hose, a MUCH cheaper option is anywhere that sells parts for industrial hydraulics.    My local will make up hoses to length, with swaged on fittings that will take the thousands of psi in, say, a JCB, so no probs with oil pressure.     Careful measurement ( a length of old garden hose pipe is useful) is essential, as always, and also the alignment of the fittings, as they don't swivel!    But only about £30 for a pair, that are a bit shorter than yours!

John

Great tip! Never thought of that 👍

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Mine has a 4 into 1 manifold which is nearer 3 inches than 2 at the collector,i made about 3 reducers(memory fade) to get it to mate with the Vitesse system under the gearbox.

Was a Vit MK1 2 litre system that was on my Vitesse 2.5L, until i had one made for the car specially by Mat Simpson.

Steve

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3 hours ago, Steve P said:

Was a Vit MK1 2 litre system that was on my Vitesse 2.5L, until i had one made for the car specially by Mat Simpson.

Steve

If you can find an exhaust fabricator, they can be a competitive alternative for the tail pipe over buying one 'off the shelf'

I took mine to one, explained what the engine had, and the maximum noise the regs limited me to, and with a bespoke bent pipe and his chosen silencer, he nailed it!   I'm regularly 103dB when the limit is 105.     

But, I've measured the noise in the cabin, and it's 95dB at full chat.      NOT to be tolerated for road trips!  OK with my helmet on when racuing, but I wear ear defenders when road driving.

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