Vitesse mk2 engine rebuild do's and don'ts...help

[Iain T]

Engine is out and stand arrives tomorrow so it's all systems ahead(ish), or in Navy Lark terms 'left hand down a bit' and wait for the crash!

The last time I completely stripped and rebuilt an engine flared trousers were in fashion....so a bit of help please. If I remember correctly it was a Ford Pinto 2ltr.

The head has been refurbed so nothing to do there but I am uncertain as to what sealants etc work and where to apply. I will get a full set of gaskets, seals, shells, rings etc from Chris Witor or Canley and measure the oil pump to see if it's within spec. I will also get a steel front sealing block, how do you seal the sides? I have a trusty Haynes manual but are there any hidden must do's or don'ts? 

As usual thanks in advance.

Iain

[Pete Lewis]

i from trials at the truck manufacture   I stick with Loctite 574 for everywhere and gasket not essential  but ok to use one 

the steel blocks use the same wooden wedges to seal the sides ,  use pleanty of sealer and clean up once wedges are tapped home 

get a good piston ring clamp  ...         big hose clips or bicycle clips are not the best !!

get a 5ltr tin of brake cleaner  ( at most factors )and approved spay canister  ( dont use  ex household  they disolve )

a brush  and bowl for squirt and brush use .

have you got all the MK2 torque figures ???

Tea Bags 

bottle of grouse 

mars bar or chocy biscuits 

Pete

[Bob Horner]

Small piece of advice - you probably know this but make sure you keep the main bearing caps in order and the right way round.  My young son got a bit carried away dismantling my GT6 engine and before I could prevent it....  He didn't mix up the order but didn't note the orientation. Luckily we could still read the stamped marks and match them up but it could have been a serious PITA.  Interestingly the Haynes manual doesn't seem to stress this issue overly as my young lad pointed out...(the workshop one does).

Bob

 

[Iain T]

Thanks Pete, I only have the torque settings in the Haynes manual if I need anymore I'll ask you guru's. Regarding the loctite do you use on both mating surfaces with or without a gasket? 

Tea bags and biscuits check but I'll have to substitute Goslings Black Seal for Grouse! 

On another note did you work at the Renault truck plant? I am sure in the 90's I had some prototype car and Deawoo cab e-coated there. 

Bob, again thanks for advice I will go slowly, slowly, take loads of pictures and mark everything in sight! I'll put caps back on to ensure they are kept in order. I am getting the crank etc balanced and weighed and the bores checked prior to reassembling. 

[Pete Lewis]

yes 42 years at the luton and dunstable truck plants under Commer, through to Renault 1962 till 2003

we had a lot of heritage and other bodies through the E coat plant , one of the first and biggest in the country.  it all went  to china in 94

the loctice is only needed on a face not both faces ,thats without  a gasket   if a gasket i would smear both

whilst our trials were a good few years ago the 574 solved all leaks and was economical to apply over and above any other  commercial product so i stick with it and its easy available

I still use a cartridge purloined when production ceased along with a  lot of gear that would have been skipped 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

it all went  to china in 94

 

Whatever you did to annoy them, they're getting us all back now. You don't use gaskets at all, Pete, just sealer?

[Pete Lewis]

there are some areas that use a gasket as part of the stack height of components but not many ,distributor pedestal for one 

but in general i use the loctite 574 anywhere i can ,it sets when air is excluded so tubes and cartridges never go solid in the cupboard so theres no waste you can leave the nozzle open ready for the next time   any time , no poking screwdrivers in to find something to use.

and if you want a neat joint its easy to wipe off the excess that squeezes out 

I love it 

[Iain T]

Just back from my daily walk around the docks. What about sealing sump to block? I was going to use a payen gasket after flattening the screw areas on the sump. I want a good seal without any sealant coming off and gumming up any oil ways. 

I do have some wellseal, is 574 better? Head gaskets are another issue my friend swears by Wellseal but others? CR with new head is 10.5:1 so a bit more squish. 

Iain 

[Colin Lindsay]

33 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

I love it 

Well I did buy a tube of it on your recommendation, but only as an additional sealer / belt and braces sort of approach. It's handy for keeping gaskets like the rocker cover gasket in place as you fit the unit.

[Nigel Clark]

You mention Canley and Chris Witor.  Both supply quality parts, I used Witor for my 2.5 litre rebuild a year ago.

Further advice if I may...  Use a thread locking compound like Loctite 243 on critical fasteners including main bearing, big end and flywheel bolts. Torque the bolts accurately, consider buying a new calibrated torque wrench, Halfords Pro tools are good. Use top quality gaskets, Payen for example. The head gasket has a nasty habit of leaking oil from the push rod side. Coat both sides of the gasket with Wellseal, it's what the trade use then torque the nuts in the correct sequence. Re-torque after 2-300 miles.

Finally, enjoy the process of building the engine, let it take as much time as necessary, and if in doubt on any aspect of the rebuild ask here. Pete has most if not all of the answers!

Nigel

[Iain T]

Nigel, 

Thanks, I think I have some 243 in my box of chemicals! 

I have a Draper torque wrench, I know it's not that great a make and torquing the head accurately is important so I'll do some searching. Until I know the bores etc are ok I'm not going to buy anything to save on multiple carriage charges. Yes I'm going to take my time, bu**er all else to do, and enjoy the process.

As to Pete knows all the answers, I know the answer to life the universe and everything...it's 42!!! (Hitchhikers)

Iain

[Pete Lewis]

aha ,  you only  get  odd answers if i  know the question.

welseal is a good olde  well used sealer  the wsm says use it on the steel shim gasket for the 1600 but doesnt say so for the 2 ltr gaskets

in my day  Hmmm !!!      head gaskets need to be dry so the head and block really grip it , the head pants about all over the place while its running and the gasket needs no help is slipping

 sealer can make it very slippy.  all this also has dependency on the gasket material type  black ones can grip   copper can merrily slip about 

so you can all make your own minds up  ha 

a smear of sealer along the unsupported cam follower side is going to help seepage  and a smear around the rocker feed hole 

Pete

 

 

 

[Nigel Clark]

Just now, Pete Lewis said:

aha ,  you only odd answers if i  know the question.

welseal is a good olde  well used sealer  the wsm says use it on the steel shim gasket for the 1600 but doesnt say so for the 2 ltr gaskets

in my day  Hmmm !!!      head gaskets need to be dry so the head and block really grip it , the head pants about all over the place while its running and the gasket needs no help is slipping

 sealer can make it very slippy.  all this also has dependency on the gasket material type  black ones can grip   copper can merrily slip about 

so you can all make your own minds up  ha 

a smear of sealer along the unsupported cam follower side is going to help seepage  and a smear around the rocker feed hole 

Pete

 

 

 

Pete,

I know the Payen head gaskets are supposed to be fitted dry, as they have a resin coating. However, they still leak oil by the pushrods often as not. Using Wellseal down the pushrod edge of the gasket and around the rocker oil feed has worked for me twice in the last few years, though it didn't fully seal the head on my TR6. But that TR engine is a bit of a 'heavy breather'!

I've asked a couple of professional Triumph engine builders how to prevent this oil leak recently. Both said use a Payen HG with Wellseal and for what it's worth, they put the sealer on the entire gasket face.

Nigel

[Pete Lewis]

dont put it on your toast , stick to marmite   ha 

and wellseal has that nice  smell of shellac   or something organic  

[Colin Lindsay]

Someone on eBay at present selling rubber sump gaskets. Says they're 'refurbished'... refurbished what?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-HERALD-SPITFIRE-NEW-HEAVY-DUTY-PERFORATED-RUBBER-SUMP-GASKET-1958-ON/124047072067?hash=item1ce1c81b43%3Ag%3AQfgAAOSw5eBccISh&LH_ItemCondition=4

[JohnD]

The word is "remanufactured".   I don't know what they mean either!   Manufactured to original pattern?

Better is to attend to the flatness of the sump flanges.   The bolt holes get helped by overtightening.

[Nigel Clark]

Jigsaw used to sell thicker sump and timing case gaskets. In Mark Field's words, the sump gaskets 'are the only ones that never leak'. The thicker timing case gasket replicated the factory original, ensuring the timing chain runs in the centre of the tensioner (more of an issue for duplex chains).

I've no idea if these are still available following the sad demise of Jigsaw.

Nigel

[Clive]

1 hour ago, Nigel Clark said:

Jigsaw used to sell thicker sump and timing case gaskets. In Mark Field's words, the sump gaskets 'are the only ones that never leak'. The thicker timing case gasket replicated the factory original, ensuring the timing chain runs in the centre of the tensioner (more of an issue for duplex chains).

I've no idea if these are still available following the sad demise of Jigsaw.

Nigel

Nigel, some years ago I bought a box containing 8 genuine sump gaskets for 4 cylinder cars. Dead cheap too. Anyway, they were lovely and thick, so jigsaw may have used an OEM thickness material. In fact, now I dabble with some Ford stuff, it seems there are a few small companies who have gaskets made to their own requirement. So not rocket science, but jigsaw may have been about the only company for whom it would have been viable. 

But a rubber gasket may not be a bad idea, they are used on some modern cars. But the norm is becoming a tube of (quality) instant gasket. I can highly recommend Victor Reinz stuff, way better than most of the RTV stuff out there. Threebond is the other decent one, used by (I think) Vauxhall, Nissan  and many other OE manufacturers.

 

Sorry, I am drifting badly!

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

The word is "remanufactured".   I don't know what they mean either!   Manufactured to original pattern?

Better is to attend to the flatness of the sump flanges.   The bolt holes get helped by overtightening.

That should be " Belled", not 'helped'

#-#£%&&-- predictivevtext!!

[Iain T]

Thanks for everyone's advice, I'm stripping the engine tomorrow unfortunately where it is it's a 60 mile round trip to work on the car!

Don't know about (gulp) Jigsaws gaskets, it's their engine I am refurbishing after only around 6k miles and I can tell you it leaks quite badly.

Hopefully parts are not too bad when everything is inspected but as I have no intention of ever taking the engine out again whatever needs to be done will be done.

Cheers All

Iain

[Iain T]

A good day, block stripped and everything at the CTM for inspection, balancing etc etc.

Pics of refurbished head and inlet manifold, looks good hopefully they will work well.

Next bit is painful, hit the Paypal account!

Iain

[Nigel Clark]

Oooh, that looks very nice. May need a cold shower after viewing such hot pics!

Nigel

[Iain T]

I did take a photo of the carb side of the inlet showing what they did to even out the airflow but it was blurred. As you say must have got too excited!

The place I am using for machining work, CTM, have used Maxspeeding conrods (see post from Yorkshire_spam) and he said although made in China if you use their top grade they are every bit as good as Carrillo, Eagle, K1. He will get me a price, he though less that £500, and I'll let the Forum know.

Chassis cleaning and prep work now.

Iain

[Nigel Clark]

Iain,

I would be really interested to see what has been done on the carb side. Cylinders 2 and 5 don't get fed as well as the others.

I've been working at the manifold on my 2.5 litre GT6 to reduce this problem but think I may need to go further to reduce the 'gates' that mask 2 and 5.

Nigel

[Iain T]

Nigel, 

I'll take a photo when next I go to the factory but from memory they just cut back a edged the restricted area. They done loads of these and he said their mod does work. 

Iain