I've seen the light

[SixasStandard]

Hello All,

Just completing the interior retrim on my '68 Vitesse 2L Mk1; all now looking sparkly and new........so flushed with success I connected up the battery to treat myself to the straight six soundtrack as a reward. On cue the old girl burst into life, so after warming her up I gave her a bit of the 'loud pedal' to scare the local bird population and share my joy with the neighbors. It was whilst all of this joy was going on that I noticed.......shock and horror!!.......the IGN warning light was on permanently. 'Zut Alors' I cried (or something similar). After a quick poke around with the wiring I couldn't find any issues, nor was there any problem with the battery earth......so I'm assuming that the problem is a duff dynamo?

Longer term I was planning on replacing the dynamo with an alternator anyway, so is there any information I can tap into to plan and implement this mod? and are there any other potential problems that I should investigate if the problem is not in fact the dynamo?

Any help/advice appreciated.

Ian

      

[poppyman]

Hi Ian, if you have a voltmeter? Connect poss lead to the the big terminal and the other to earth you should have volts coming out? If you do? Then you have a wiring fault.

Tony. 

[SixasStandard]

15 minutes ago, poppyman said:

Hi Ian, if you have a voltmeter? Connect poss lead to the the big terminal and the other to earth you should have volts coming out? If you do? Then you have a wiring fault.

Tony. 

Thanks Tony, unfortunately I don't have a voltmeter (one item on a very long list of "wants" but "don't haves").......could this approach work with some form of simple test light?

Bloody electrics!!.......it's all witchcraft as far as I'm concerned!!

Ian

[Pete Lewis]

warning lamp malfuction on a dynamo is most likely going to be the control box is about to test your patience   might just be dirty contacts  but do not twiddle with the settings  

but  have you looked at the dynamo brushes ...may be just  worn out , 

 

Pete

[Clive]

To fit an alternator...first buy one. A decent branded one. Denso, Bosch etc, not a new unbranded lucas copy. Ideally get a spitfire etc alternator bracket. Bolt where the dynamo was. Connect the dynamo wiring, but you will likely need an extra wire as the alternator will have a higher output. A nice 30A wire direct to battery + will do a good job.

Rewire the control box. The black negative wire is no longer required. The F and WL wires are joined together. The rest of the wires are then joined together (but not to the wl/F)

I have done the job using a bit of copper pipe, cut open and flattened. Then cut lugs for the connectors. That means no cutting of wires. Use a small box (screwfix/toolstation etc) to put the connections in, or make something.

 

Voltmeter, ebay about £5

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DT-830B-LCD-Display-Digital-Multimeter-AC-DC-750-1000V-Amp-Volt-Ohm-TesterLDP-ne/353018165569?hash=item523185b941:g:j~4AAOSw6eRdedgG

[Guest]

Hello Ian,

As much as this will give you sleepless nights by spending an extra £10 - this may be more useful:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-Tools-Digital-Multimeter-8-Function-With-Thermocouple-Hi-Vis-MM20HV/223455880432?epid=7017013943&hash=item34070224f0:g:G9kAAOSwUv1ck7V3

Regards.

Richard.

[poppyman]

3 hours ago, clive said:

To fit an alternator...first buy one. A decent branded one. Denso, Bosch etc, not a new unbranded lucas copy. Ideally get a spitfire etc alternator bracket. Bolt where the dynamo was. Connect the dynamo wiring, but you will likely need an extra wire as the alternator will have a higher output. A nice 30A wire direct to battery + will do a good job.

Rewire the control box. The black negative wire is no longer required. The F and WL wires are joined together. The rest of the wires are then joined together (but not to the wl/F)

I have done the job using a bit of copper pipe, cut open and flattened. Then cut lugs for the connectors. That means no cutting of wires. Use a small box (screwfix/toolstation etc) to put the connections in, or make something.

 

Voltmeter, ebay about £5

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DT-830B-LCD-Display-Digital-Multimeter-AC-DC-750-1000V-Amp-Volt-Ohm-TesterLDP-ne/353018165569?hash=item523185b941:g:j~4AAOSw6eRdedgG

I have seen that method done for years Clive.... Super simple and it works!! A lot of people go for loads of rewiring etc.

Tony.

[SixasStandard]

1 hour ago, classiclife said:

Hello Ian,

As much as this will give you sleepless nights by spending an extra £10 - this may be more useful:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-Tools-Digital-Multimeter-8-Function-With-Thermocouple-Hi-Vis-MM20HV/223455880432?epid=7017013943&hash=item34070224f0:g:G9kAAOSwUv1ck7V3

Regards.

Richard.

That's a bit harsh Richard, frugality really should be considered as a positive attribute (or in my particular case a necessity).

Ian

[SixasStandard]

3 hours ago, clive said:

To fit an alternator...first buy one. A decent branded one. Denso, Bosch etc, not a new unbranded lucas copy. Ideally get a spitfire etc alternator bracket. Bolt where the dynamo was. Connect the dynamo wiring, but you will likely need an extra wire as the alternator will have a higher output. A nice 30A wire direct to battery + will do a good job.

Rewire the control box. The black negative wire is no longer required. The F and WL wires are joined together. The rest of the wires are then joined together (but not to the wl/F)

I have done the job using a bit of copper pipe, cut open and flattened. Then cut lugs for the connectors. That means no cutting of wires. Use a small box (screwfix/toolstation etc) to put the connections in, or make something.

 

Voltmeter, ebay about £5

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DT-830B-LCD-Display-Digital-Multimeter-AC-DC-750-1000V-Amp-Volt-Ohm-TesterLDP-ne/353018165569?hash=item523185b941:g:j~4AAOSw6eRdedgG

Thanks Clive, that sounds really straightforward.......I reckon even I could do that without incinerating the car!

Ian

[Anglefire]

For new wire - get some welding cable - no, not rods, but the cable that connects the leads to the machine. 

Something like this:

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/2200513-16mm-welding-cable-black-cut-length-sold-by-the-mtr

16mm2 is good for around 60A and is very flexible so ideal for getting to from the engine to battery - not that a lot of movement is expected!

 

[thescrapman]

Even neater is to remove the innards from a broken control box ( I am sure everyone is like me and has a box full of them) and solder a bit of wire between the relevant connectors.

invisble that way, and you don't end up with loose wires and a clump of insulating tape floating about.

 

[SixasStandard]

Thanks guys, all good tips and much appreciated. I've also found this from the TSSC Devon group:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tssc-devon.org.uk%2Ftechnical%2F13-alternator-conversion.html&psig=AOvVaw3jwF12civtI_1JIWYrVbO7&ust=1588922534719000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=2ahUKEwi-pKrrm6HpAhXy6-AKHa4mCkgQr4kDegUIARD3AQ

This seems to mirror the above, so I now have a good set of instructions to follow.

Regards,

Ian

[Colin Lindsay]

43 minutes ago, thescrapman said:

Even neater is to remove the innards from a broken control box ( I am sure everyone is like me and has a box full of them) and solder a bit of wire between the relevant connectors.

invisble that way, and you don't end up with loose wires and a clump of insulating tape floating about.

 

That's the way I did mine back in the day. You'll find the now empty control box very handy for spare keys, spare bulbs, even a few coins taped inside for emergency phonecalls. 

[JohnD]

Just leave the coins loose.

Then when someone says, "You're pinking!" you can say, nah, it's just the emergency phone coins.

Although, where would you find a payphone these days?  Coins don't work in mobiles.

[Clive]

I wonder if the control box could be replaced by a fusebox? looking at the wiring diagram, one of the brown wires goes direct to the battery +, and could be joined to the alternator main output (again brown?) but that would need a check to determine which brown!

Those 2 wires could feed  a fusebox, with the rest of the browns put on hefty fuses as basic protection for the car wiring? one of the other browns just feeds the horns, which are unfused. Another feeds the starter switch AND the lights (possibly just headlight flash, it has an inline fuse I think) the other brown feeds the column lighting switch and is unfused. Stick a pair of fused relays in for main and high beam would remove the need for a big fuse for the column light switch, drop it to 10A fuse. Horns needs a 17/35A I reckon, they draw a lot of current. Rest of car a 17/35 as most things go though the 2-fuse fusebox anyway. And one only supplies the sidelight circuit? (if so surely that should have been a 10A fuse)

Apart from main/dipped lights, the only serious current draws will be horns, rarely used, wiper motor and heater motor. Everything else is very low. That is why a std car only needs a 25A approx alternator. So no need to be tempted by a 65A or even bigger. I have a 40A baby denso alternator (brilliant, tiny and should last forever) and that will keep a car going on full beam with spotlights, heater going full and wipers on, all indefinitely. I know, I have done it on overnight drives through Scotland.....

[68vitesse]

Had this problem on my Mk1 2L Vitesse, tried a selection of dynamos and control boxes I had but went down the alternator route. As Clive mentioned use an alternator bracket from a Triumph four cylinder iron engine, the adjuster can be cut down drilled and reused, a different fan belt will probably be needed.

I have been using one of the Lucas copies for years, but there is a lot of crap out there, don't go to mad on amps output as to much can be as bad as not enough.

Best of luck.

Paul

[Paul H]

I’ve been down the alternator route for my Vitesse  using the Dynamator instead of a conventional alternator . 2 weeks and 1600 mile trip it packed up . Despite being out of warranty Accuspark replaced it and it’s still on the box and looking to be sold . 

My question is do I really need to change to an alternator ? What level of activity is required that I need the extra amps 

Thanks in advance 

Paul 

[poppyman]

Depends on what you using the car for really Paul? If it's like me just when the sun shines or the odd run out at weekends stick with the dynamo. But if you are doing what Clive doe's? It's a must.  An alternator in most cases is also cheaper than a dynamo.

Tony. 

[68vitesse]

My problem was the control box needed replacing, and I did not have any confidence in the quality of the items currently being sold.

Think dynamo was a bit marginal when new for headlights, heater fan and wipers etc. for a cold wet winters night, but the majority of the cars live a more pampered existence now.

Regards

Paul

[Clive]

A dynamo output is about 20A from memory, give or take depending on model. So yes, marginal on wet winter days, worse at night, which is why ammeters were popular n=but simply not needed with an alternator.nAnd try finding an alternator at short notice. When I was young, if an alternator packed up the AA man always had an ACR on the van ready to go. But thesedays that is not viable. However, the OEM alternators seem to be super reliable, usually lasting the lifetime of the car. I have not replaced one in 25 years. My Dad had one go on his Focus, but I think that was down to battery failure and "user error" (not me, him and jumpleads were not a good idea)

In fact, I would rather have a used modern alternator on my car than a rebuilt or "alternative supplier" new part. Trouble is they all all big outputs and multi-v belts. But you can find alternative pulleys. But the baby denso ones, even at £80, are worth having. As long as it is a brand new genuine denso, not a copy.

[Paul H]

Thanx for replies , I’ll stick with the faithful dynamo for the time being as most of my driving is daytime . Theoretically what happens to the dynamo when overloaded for a period of time with lights , wipers , heater blower etc 

Paul 

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Just leave the coins loose.

Then when someone says, "You're pinking!" you can say, nah, it's just the emergency phone coins.

Ever put a 5p in behind someone's wheel trim? They'll go mad looking for the source of the rattling tinny noise... until finally they take the wheel off...

[Clive]

14 minutes ago, Paul H said:

Thanx for replies , I’ll stick with the faithful dynamo for the time being as most of my driving is daytime . Theoretically what happens to the dynamo when overloaded for a period of time with lights , wipers , heater blower etc 

Paul 

Nothing, it chugs away doing what it can, the battery supplies the top-up. That is OK for a while, and certainly worked OK when the cars were new. I reckon people were adept at not using everything at once, hence ammeters being popular. 

[JohnD]

30 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Ever put a 5p in behind someone's wheel trim? They'll go mad looking for the source of the rattling tinny noise... until finally they take the wheel off...

That's EVIL!

[AidanT]

3 hours ago, clive said:

I wonder if the control box could be replaced by a fusebox? looking at the wiring diagram, one of the brown wires goes direct to the battery +, and could be joined to the alternator main output (again brown?) but that would need a check to determine which brown!

Those 2 wires could feed  a fusebox, with the rest of the browns put on hefty fuses as basic protection for the car wiring? one of the other browns just feeds the horns, which are unfused. Another feeds the starter switch AND the lights (possibly just headlight flash, it has an inline fuse I think) the other brown feeds the column lighting switch and is unfused. Stick a pair of fused relays in for main and high beam would remove the need for a big fuse for the column light switch, drop it to 10A fuse. Horns needs a 17/35A I reckon, they draw a lot of current. Rest of car a 17/35 as most things go though the 2-fuse fusebox anyway. And one only supplies the sidelight circuit? (if so surely that should have been a 10A fuse)

Apart from main/dipped lights, the only serious current draws will be horns, rarely used, wiper motor and heater motor. Everything else is very low. That is why a std car only needs a 25A approx alternator. So no need to be tempted by a 65A or even bigger. I have a 40A baby denso alternator (brilliant, tiny and should last forever) and that will keep a car going on full beam with spotlights, heater going full and wipers on, all indefinitely. I know, I have done it on overnight drives through Scotland.....

Clive - you are totally correct - it can be, in fact there are replacement boxes available that are a fuse box when you convert to Dynamo. I converted mine myself 

 

Aidan