johny Posted June 8, 2020 Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 In fact that isn't the right spacer in the photo as it's too big and looks to be for the centre bearing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingieuk Posted June 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 Ah, okay. So what I thought was a broken circlip is actually a broken spacer. I did think it was a beefy circlip. I'll need to try and source one of those then, part number 155756. Unfortunately Canleys do not stock them. I'm sure I can find an equivalent somewhere. I wonder if the 3rd gear circlip has allowed the shaft to slide back and break the spacer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingieuk Posted June 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 8 minutes ago, johny said: In fact that isn't the right spacer in the photo as it's too big and looks to be for the centre bearing Good spot! I'll see if I can find any dimensions for 155756 online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 8, 2020 Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 I found the same rear bearing spacer in pieces in a box sometime back. Did you have any problems getting the speedo drive gear off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 8, 2020 Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 The rear bearing should be able to move axially in the housing so shouldn't put pressure on that spacer. I wonder if it gets broken when doing up the flange nut.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingieuk Posted June 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 1 hour ago, johny said: I found the same rear bearing spacer in pieces in a box sometime back. Did you have any problems getting the speedo drive gear off? No, came off easy with a open spanner and a soft mallet. It is tight that nyloc nut like. I guess you have to be careful not to damage the oil seal too. I found some details that the spacer is 1/8" thick. It's number 29 in attached photo. Definitely lower profile than the main bearing spacer number 26. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted June 8, 2020 Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 im sure this washer just abuts the coupling and bearing it can get fractured if the coupling is overtightend Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 8, 2020 Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 That list of parts are for single rail boxes but they're probably the same for the three.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 8, 2020 Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Ingieuk said: Interesting stuff. I'm starting to think I shouldn't have ordered the rebuild kit now as I'm only going to use the needles, circlips, bearings, one thrust washer and oil seals. Leaving a thrust washer, lay shaft, four syncro rings, syncro springs and syncro balls languishing in my tool box. I also have a circlip conundrum to work out. The circlip at the rear of the extension that was in pieces is around 3mm thick, the circlip groove is 1mm. It looks like it should have the same type with the two little eyes as on the rest of mainshaft (other than 3rd gear). The question is which one is right? The exploded diagram doesn't reference this circlip at all so I have part numbers to go off. I've attached a pic with both types and the requisite groove for comparison. Yes I would have recommended not getting a rebuild kit unless absolutely necessary as even the new Korean main bearings may not be as long lasting as the originals you're throwing away☹️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted June 8, 2020 Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 how syncro works c/o rootes group wsm i need to colour in the parts to make it better but this applies to all the basic designs of baulking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingieuk Posted June 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 Thanks for the detail on the syncro Pete, good to have a cutaway diagram! Initial impressions of the rebuild kit from James Paddock is good, I'll see how we get on. The bearings are smoother than those that came out, even if they might not last as long. I'm thinking of getting a new reverse idler, I'd hate one of the damaged teeth to fail and wreck all this work. This washer could become a problem though. It is 1" O.D. 7/8" I.D. 1/8" thick, the usual suppliers all state 'no longer available'. I imagine given how it failed it's hardened steel. Any ideas where I might get one? Or even get one made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted June 9, 2020 Report Share Posted June 9, 2020 i will have a look might just have one glad you put the size , will rummage my big bag of circlips and spacers . Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted June 9, 2020 Report Share Posted June 9, 2020 nearest ive got are 1.017 int 0.753 0.930" or 1.12" 0.884 0.122"( this seems the closest ) with digi vernier and varifocals as youre after 1.00 0,875 0,125 so given a few thou would you like it in the post being rare the beer money has to go up Ha ! Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingieuk Posted June 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 I've not put an update on where I've got to for a few days as I've been busy with work. The gearbox is back together, refitted in car with new clutch and overhauled master/slave cylinder. We have had partial success. The good: No oil leaks 2nd,3rd,4th lovely and quiet. Changing down the box seems no problem. So initial indication is the original problem is solved. However... The bad: I accidentally left out the three springs that are fitted before the bell housing and bear upon the layshaft front thrust washer. Doh. 1st gear is a lot noisier than previous. When I was putting the box back together I fitted a new reverse idler (rimmers) no issues with the fitting. I think the reverse idler is turning when the 1st/2nd syncro hub is selected in 1st. Is this right? The idler was also close to the first gear but I thought the reverse actuator would stop it touching. Thanks, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 13, 2020 Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 The springs were a later mod to reduce laygear rattle especially in neutral so not so important. The reverse gear however is if it's making contact in first gear and there's been threads on here detailing struggles to avoid it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted June 13, 2020 Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 I think it's actually not unusual for the reverse idler to make contact when in first - it doesn't sit that far away. It's probably not right but I've always suspected every car I've owned with that box has done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingieuk Posted June 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 I won't worry too much about those springs then! Still if the box is coming back out I'll get them fitted. It's odd that I didn't notice the sound before the box rebuild if the reverse idler was spinning, but then again there is a load of thick matting, a fiberglass tunnel and a thick carpet between me and it normally. I didn't compare the size/shape of the old and new idlers before I fitted them. Maybe it will quiet down as it beds in. I'll see if I can find those other threads, didn't realise it is a common issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingieuk Posted June 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 This was a photo I took on Thursday before I refitted the top cover. Selected in 1st with the idler and 1st syncro sleeve meshing by about 3mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted June 13, 2020 Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 think the conclusion was the reverse lever gets bent a little dont worry about the layshaft 3 springs it was later deleted , its to stop backlash chatter noise at idle if any box is clattery at idle just apply some load on the gearstick to make the baulk ring try to grip this drag will quieten the racket proves its not a problem pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingieuk Posted June 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 Okay so am I right in thinking the syncro sleeve and reverse idler should not be in mesh when in first gear? I found this thread: Which then links to a further thread: https://www.triumphexp.com/forum/spitfire-and-gt6-forum.8/close-ratio-spitfire-gearbox.927491.1259499/page-6#msg-1259499 Which mentions the syncro sleeve and idler are supposed to be in mesh in 1st gear. I can make my peace if its by design, but if its not I'd be worried about trashing something leaving them in mesh? I don't believe the reverse idler is contacting the first gear as I'm sure the distance piece is the correct 3 rail length. From recollection if the mesh was about 3mm the reverse lever must be really bent? Odd it didn't do it with the old idler. So close yet so far! Thanks as ever for this gold mine of experience I can tap into. This car is my pride and joy, plus 18 years my senior so I'm glad there is still the knowledge out to help people look after them!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted June 13, 2020 Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 would the failed circlip allow the whole assy to get slightly misplaced and affect the idler clearance ?? pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingieuk Posted June 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 It certainly could I guess. I'm just not clear on if the syncro sleeve meshing with the idler is by design or not and if it is okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted June 13, 2020 Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 I'm quite sure that the idler should not be in mesh when in first gear. There is no reason to design for that and a couple of good ones why not! IIRC there are a couple (at least) of different lengths of idler and also different lengths of spacer tube that determine how far back the idler moves when reverse is not engaged. It's possible that some do operate like this and as you are not likely to get the third gear in the chain hooked up as well it won't do any immediate harm beyond giving 1st gear a bit of a straight-cut whine. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted June 14, 2020 Report Share Posted June 14, 2020 it doesnt make much design sense to me either when you read what we covered in Darrens post you realise theres a lot of mix and match confusion possible Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingieuk Posted June 14, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2020 I do agree it's an odd design choice and therefore unlikely. It needs to be right this so it sounds like box is coming back out agin😔 I have identified through photos the 1st/2nd syncro hub is the opposite way around to what it was before I stripped the box. You can see from the wear groove if you look closely at the pre strip photo below compared to the post strip one earlier in this thread. Given the hub boss is not even I wonder if that would make a difference. Either way time for the box to come out again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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