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AC Delco Fuel Pump


Colin
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Hi All,

Herald 1147cc 1970 Fuel Pump (attempted replacement)

A bit of an FYI . . . .

Following my extensive fuel feed and total system renewal saga (including looking at having an aluminium fuel tank made: I rejected the escalated cost, for a chop off and weld repair of the existing broken drain tube, interior shot blasting and a baked coating applied inside and out, with ReNu), but, with fuel still not being drawn through, I decided to replace the pump for a new one (I know I’ve repaired it before).

Bought one locally, for speed. By Powertune. It didn’t slot in, moving the crankcase lever, or not. The flange shape and the gaskets were different. I took it back. Bought another from one of the main well known "reputable" suppliers. Same thing. A Powertune unit arrived. Exactly the same as the first. Box marked up as for Spitfire Mk 3.

I have been sage enough to buy from them, what is described as an AC Delco fuel pump repair to repeat my kit previous works. This looks like matching the parts of my actual and original AC unit body.

Begs the question why have the well known suppliers not noticed the difference between an original AC Delco pump, its internal and associated parts and the commissioned replacements? Has anyone else had the same experience??

BTW, once I’ve rebuilt the pump, if I can’t get fuel through, I’ll have to ask for some more assistance (is it just a question of using the pump priming lever? A friend said suck it through from the tank . . . ).

All thoughts welcome!! 

Best,

Colin

Edited by Colin
replies wanted!
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just get the pump lever on the back of its cam so the prime lever actually works , as if the cam is holding the diaphragm pulled down the prime lever 

will be somewhat useless,  if the pump is working it will have more suck that you can develop ,  

there should be plenty of suck to draw fuel through an empty supply pipe   and fill the carb chambers 

pete

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the engine camshaft lobe pulls the diaphragm push rod down the big spring returns it and produces the pressure .

if the cam has pulled the diaphragm on its full down stroke the hand prime lever has nothing to operate as its already down

you have to turn the engine over a short crank so the prime lever gets a chance to do something   the best part is you cant see any of this and

its a guessing game of trial ans error , you can tell if the prime lever is doing its job as there will be some feeling of ...suck and squirt going on

if the cam is holding it down the prime lever will feel  ....useless,  as   nothings happening ...

does that help ???

Pete

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Have you checked that the fuel line, from tank outlet to pump, is clear?

I had to replace the tank on my Spitfire.  I looked at ReNu but was quoted around £300 plus 2x delivery charges.  A made in Taiwan steel replacement cost £250.  I put an air line into the fuel line, it built a head of steam and went "pop" at the fuel pump end as it shot a ton of debris into a rag.  I cleaned-out the fuel pump and float chambers and the car pulled-through the fuel and started after about 5 short turns of the key.

Just a thought.

 

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The after market fuel pumps supplied at the moment for Herald seem to be mainly Powertune and are mainly  208502, I queried this with my supplier as I ordered a 208493 for my 13/60. He said that it was the same pump and although listed as a Spitfire mk3  part it fits a 1300 Herald as well. That may be true but my original pump I measured as delivering at 2lbs/in wheras the new item runs at 7ilbs/in and floods my carb, it also has a very different shaped arm. My supplier says they have sold lots of these and nobody has complained so it must be an issue with my Carb. I will find out shortly when my Stromberg returns from a trip to Carburettor Exchange for a refurb, I will try it at 7lbs/in and see if it works but failing that I have a pressure regulator to fit as my old pump (Not AC) is now kaputt. This all kicked off when I changed my tank after a leak, then realised some of my hose was disintegrating  (R6). Your probably best rebuilding the original one if you have the kit , Best of luck Colin 

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2 hours ago, pageste said:

My supplier says they have sold lots of these and nobody has complained so it must be an issue with my Carb.

Ask him if he's actually bothered to ask any of his customers whether they have problems.

Problems with excessive fuel pressure on the currently available after-market replacement pumps are extremely common. It's almost certain that 90% of his customers had problems but didn't think it worth complaining. It's really common.

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this is aftermarket rubbish  at 7lb expect the float needle to be forced open   so get your regulator ready 

going electric is getting more popular people like facet give a specification and they do what they say ,  get their right pump and you have no troubls  

buy a mechanical offered as replacement and its a rough copy with no control over the eastern network of fakes we get ,  

any  with much  more than 2.5psi and you can expect flooding 

Grrrr   pete

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13 hours ago, pageste said:

The after market fuel pumps supplied at the moment for Herald seem to be mainly Powertune and are mainly  208502, I queried this with my supplier as I ordered a 208493 for my 13/60. He said that it was the same pump 

Depends who you buy from; there are a number of suppliers and some are more 'in the know' than others, who as you say do the one-size-fits-all' version.

Even just studying the photos you can see the one on the left (the 208493) at £25 is completely wrong, the cam lever looks to be cheap rubbish that has damage even on the listed photo, whilst the one on the right has the removable top for cleaning the filter, as per the original, and is £21, so better value from the start.

s-l1600-17.jpg.f69581a6a726480bb7c23e5e13b86004.jpg  s-l1600-18.jpg.aec2c30cc312c95db7c9ba9f290d0434.jpg

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Great reading, chaps. Thanks for all suggestions. I'll repeat a little of my previous post:- seemed silly of me not to change all the fuel lines after having the tank ReNu'd (I got change out of £300). So I did. Copper and new ethanol proof flexibles.

I e-mailed the well known supplier beginning with R.

Ended up having a conversation about how only a few out of many sold pumps are complained about and returned.

And, also, about some spacer block used with the pump. I actually think in retrospect their replacement might've worked if I'd had a spacer block. 

But I don't - and it hasn't! How many owners' Heralds have a fuel pump spacer block ??

I suggested it might be good for them to source a manufacturing company which could replicate (for example) the AC Delco I have had in my car its entire working life. 

In the meantime - and here's an oddity - I cleaned my pump out and inspected the previously replaced innards (not the lever arms as they don't come with repair kits). In the dark side recess in the body of the pump (lid and cleaned gauze filter taken off), I found a load of fibrous material, that I then cleared out. This then led me to remember (in horror), that after having bust off the drain tube and tipping out remaining fuel before sending away for repair and coating, an item resembling an old cigar butt waltzed its way out if the tank! I am now wondering if the pump had sucked up a bit of the old tobacco and in operation, it'd prevented fuel flow!!??!! 

Back in the day, eh, when your practical joker mates would try to blow your car up outside the pub by depositing their cigar butts in your fuel tank!! 

First thing I did on acquisition was put a locking cap on, so it wasn't in my ownership that happened . . .

Ho hum.

Pump not back on yet, but am reasonably sure having been overhauled and turning on the key (having checked all lines from the pump to the carb and in the carb too), that she'll be fine.

Still puzzled about the spacer, though!

 

 

 

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the insulation spacer was only fitted to the 1500 engine , never elsewhere , you cannot mix and match as the cam arm will be the wrong length/angle

most long are pumps are not available for a 1500 you have to ditch the spacer fit short studs (or add lots of washers) and fit a std short arm pump aka  herald spitty

Pete

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If you check the suitability listing for many pumps (which is hopefully correctly listed by the supplier!) you'll see that many are listed for Heralds and Spitfires; correct as most 1147 Spits and Heralds used the same pump as did 1300 Herald and Spitfires. 1500 Spitfires did not as they required a different lever due to the insulation block - and as there was never a factory 1500 Herald then that's also correct; but many suppliers and alas sometimes buyers assume one pump fits all.

The only problem I've ever had fitting a pump was to put the lever behind the cam rather than in front of it; you think the pump is hitting something - which it should - but you don't realise there's spring pressure to overcome, and so you manoeuvre the lever until the pump fits flush, which means the lever has gone under and up behind the cam, and so won't be operated.

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Colin Lindsay; thanks!

I have replaced the diaphram after its thorough clean. It's ready to be put back. 

Is the cam lobe visible? She just slots in beautifully right now;

How will I know that the lever arm is in front of the cam when I replace it?!?

Best,

Colin

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6 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

 the removable top for cleaning the filter, as per the original, and is £21, so better value from the start.

  s-l1600-18.jpg.aec2c30cc312c95db7c9ba9f290d0434.jpg

This is like the one I am using, its similar to an AC but is still too powerful. I have fitted a regulator which brings it down to about 2.5lbs. A lot of the repro ones are described as "straight arm type" which my original pump (non AC) certainly wasnt. 

 

20200523_104819.jpg

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8 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Depends who you buy from; there are a number of suppliers and some are more 'in the know' than others, who as you say do the one-size-fits-all' version.

Even just studying the photos you can see the one on the left (the 208493) at £25 is completely wrong, the cam lever looks to be cheap rubbish that has damage even on the listed photo, whilst the one on the right has the removable top for cleaning the filter, as per the original, and is £21, so better value from the start.

Are you able to say the suppliers you have found to know their stuff?. I have ones that I use, though any others could be good back up.

Ta, Dave

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1 hour ago, daverclasper said:

Are you able to say the suppliers you have found to know their stuff?. I have ones that I use, though any others could be good back up.

Ta, Dave

Yes, there are one or two on eBay that I use time and time again (jumblemaster for one); some of the bigger concerns on the Net in general don't really care or have too much going on to bother worrying about what they supply to a very small percentage of their customers. 

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Gents,

With specific regard to the threads;

How would one know if I've reinstalled with the lever the far side if the cam??!?

Cleaned, reinstalled and with replaced new diaphragm, I still can't get any spurts of fuel to the carb end of the fuel run by engine turning. With carb unprimed to start with - then primed. Have to sya the priming lever fells a little soggy and is reluctant to return to position without assistance.

Today's job, I guess, is to get the tank to pump delivery pipe off to see if it's been drawn through by the pump in any way shape or form.

Colin L, I e-mailed you on your tssc mail address.

Any further thoughts welcome.

BTW, whilst the Powertune unit was wrong, R's refunded me but also let me keep the unit (?!?).

Would it be worth my while chopping and changing its innards - the ones that fit - into my AC unit??

Or is this increased pressure situation going to bite if I do that? (Lord only knows where you get or how you fit a 'regulator'!!??)

Best,

C.

 

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I've never quite been able to figure out how anyone manages to get the lever the wrong side of the cam. The arm tucks through the hole in the block just in time to line up the studs, then you push the pump in parallel. It should start to gently resist just before bottoming - how far before depends on the cam position, i.e. where exactly the engine stopped.

The priming lever shouldn't be reluctant. If the pump is fully primed (and carbs full) then the lever should go semi-floppy but be free to return under its own very weak spring.

If it pumps with the lever but not by the engine then it doesn't feel like a pipe-work issue.

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Good morning Colin,

This problem with replacement fuel pumps providing too much pressure is not new. I bought a new pump from John Kipping, just before a drive to Paris with the lady who is now my wife, so that must have been more than 20 years ago, and it made my carburettors flood. I bought another pump from Moss (or TRGB, I can't remember) and it was even worse. The solution was to fit a Malpassi Filter King pressure regulator and filter combined. It solved the problem and it is still on my car all these years later. Demon Tweeks has them on special offer at the moment https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/malpassi-filter-king-fuel-pressure-regulator-and-filter-243259/ but they may be even cheaper on ebay.

Rob's advice on fitting the pump is spot-on and it is actually quite hard to get the lever on the wrong side of the cam.

Good luck

Adrian

Edited by Adrian Cooper
Changed 'Non-Member' to Rob
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Thanks to both.

I was querulous about the lever being able to go beyind the cam lobe.

That's not the issue, I'm pretty certain (how can you see inside a block??!!). It would've been foolish for Triumph to have used a pump that allowed this to be the case - perhaps with the replacement pumps Colin et al have posted about . . . 

Adrian Cooper - thanks. But it is the pump original to the car. So excess pressure is/should not be an issue. I can recall replacing the diaphragm and have done so again. Bit loathe to try to dig the valves out in case I damage what looks like an interference fit (and conversely damaging new in refit!).

Having done all this, I can't countenance removing the tank again to ensure fuel empties out of its output pipe. But if needs must . . . 

 

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Thanks to both.

I was querulous about the lever being able to go beyind the cam lobe.

That's not the issue, I'm pretty certain (how can you see inside a block??!!). It would've been foolish for Triumph to have used a pump that allowed this to be the case - perhaps with the replacement pumps Colin et al have posted about . . . 

Adrian Cooper - thanks. But it is the pump original to the car. So excess pressure is/should not be an issue. I can recall replacing the diaphragm and have done so again. Bit loathe to try to dig the valves out in case I damage what looks like an interference fit (and conversely damaging new in refit!).

Having done all this, I can't countenance removing the tank again to ensure fuel empties out of its output pipe. But if needs must . . . 

 

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