NonMember Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 OK, I'm not clear on some of your disconnecting: -- If you have it all there but the column switch off, selecting 3rd/4th blows the fuse -- If you disconnect the solenoid only it still blows -- If you disconnect the inhibitor it doesn't blow -- If you have the inhibitor connected but the bullets on the column switch disconnected, it doesn't blow? If that's a correct assessment, then your problem is in the column switch. 10 hours ago, Peter Truman said: Colin when I installed my overdrive in the Vitesse I fitted the official column switch and shroud, I was very concerned when having to fit the extra wires into the column wire cover when tightening the column mounting to the dash the wires obviously were heavily compressed I had intermittent problems with the overdrive in my Vitesse for a long time - tried re-wiring round the gearbox, adding a relay, all to no avail. Then I discovered one of the wires from the column switch had got trapped under the edge of that cover and, while the insulation was apparently intact, the copper core had been broken (probably work hardened and snapped, in truth). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 not the best diagram but the basics are on here this for d type , J deletes the relay Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 14 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: not the best diagram I could make a sarcastic comment about the best one being one that's actually present and visible... If Colin has described his wiring accurately then I think it's about as correct as it can be for a column-switched J-type Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted July 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 It was one of the first things I did, replacing the switch... but I'm wondering if it was all ok under the outer sheathing? I'm also wondering if... I broke the indicator by careless headbutting when I came up out of the footwell, and replaced the indicator stalk, and it's possible the fuses only started after that - I remember blaming the wiper motor, which had frayed cabling, and got it all rebuilt. So: I replaced the original overdrive switch with an NOS spare; what are the chances of the replacement also being damaged, either before-hand, or at the fitting stage when compressed by the column shrouds? Therefore Peter - and you too Rob - may be right about the switch; I'll have to strip the outer sheathing on it to check the wires underneath. I'll fit a small pull-switch into the circuit as a stop-gap and that will confirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Flinn Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said: It was one of the first things I did, replacing the switch... but I'm wondering if it was all ok under the outer sheathing? I'm also wondering if... I broke the indicator by careless headbutting when I came up out of the footwell, and replaced the indicator stalk, and it's possible the fuses only started after that - I remember blaming the wiper motor, which had frayed cabling, and got it all rebuilt. So: I replaced the original overdrive switch with an NOS spare; what are the chances of the replacement also being damaged, either before-hand, or at the fitting stage when compressed by the column shrouds? Therefore Peter - and you too Rob - may be right about the switch; I'll have to strip the outer sheathing on it to check the wires underneath. I'll fit a small pull-switch into the circuit as a stop-gap and that will confirm. Colin As stated at the start of the post by Badwolf, are you sure you've not trapped an Overdrive switch wire as it runs up the column to the switch? Its all very tight up the column and very easy to trap one, have you checked this area? It sounds like you have a dead short somewhere! Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted July 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Gary Flinn said: Colin As stated at the start of the post by Badwolf, are you sure you've not trapped an Overdrive switch wire as it runs up the column to the switch? That appears to have happened with the first switch, Gary; I've found damage under the sheathing and the exposed wiring is quite green. However: I removed the NOS switch that I fitted after that one and replaced it as a test with a small pull switch, and wonder of wonders nothing blows and you can hear the solenoid clicking (or it did the first time...) This second column stalk is perfect - no damage to wiring, no visible damage to anything else, yet I've tested it again and it blows the fuse immediately. So: at this point it's the switch. Now I just have to wait for the one I ordered online earlier and confirm. I think I'll route it outside the column clamp. Thanks for all your help and enduring my thinking-out-loud in large amounts on these pages which helps focus the mind immensely. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 You see, we knew that you would sort it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 so its not strong tea then ???? with addative ??? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted July 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 I don't need any additives... ( or are you referring to bromine?) Just building the interior back into the car and finding out that the fuses still don't blow afterwards will be a real high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 I have the Badwolf cocktail for that. Just made one and waiting for the BBQ to come up to temp. Of course its now raining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted July 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 21 minutes ago, Badwolf said: I have the Badwolf cocktail for that. Just made one and waiting for the BBQ to come up to temp. Of course its now raining. Of course it is. It's Summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6M Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 I no ye found it, butt, !! i tek it that its the correct fuse, 17 cont, 35 blow. some fuses just say 17, an folk tek it that they 17 cont, but they not they mebe 8-10 blow been caught oot wid this a few times,!!! M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Truman Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 Col 9 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said: 10 hours ago, Gary Flinn said: Colin As stated at the start of the post by Badwolf, are you sure you've not trapped an Overdrive switch wire as it runs up the column to the switch? That appears to have happened with the first switch, Gary; I've found damage under the sheathing and the exposed wiring is quite green. However: I removed the NOS switch that I fitted after that one and replaced it as a test with a small pull switch, and wonder of wonders nothing blows and you can hear the solenoid clicking (or it did the first time...) This second column stalk is perfect - no damage to wiring, no visible damage to anything else, yet I've tested it again and it blows the fuse immediately. So: at this point it's the switch. Now I just have to wait for the one I ordered online earlier and confirm. I think I'll route it outside the column clamp. Thanks for all your help and enduring my thinking-out-loud in large amounts on these pages which helps focus the mind immensely. Colin very glad you've determined the problem, but I'm intrigued with above the O/D switch is only a rocker switch so ball and spring can fail it does have a steel upper case, but I understand your GT6 its fitted in the modified plastic RH steering column cowl which includes an extra boss for the O/D switch and the switch is bolted to that plastic boss/cowl so shouldn't make contact with any steel to earth, unless the soldered wire connections at the rear can touch ie earth out on the column tube but I think the switch body isn't long enough! So why does it blow the fuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted August 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2020 12 hours ago, GT6M said: I no ye found it, butt, !! i tek it that its the correct fuse, 17 cont, 35 blow. 9 hours ago, Peter Truman said: So why does it blow the fuse? Markus - the fuses are correct, I have to buy them (in large quantities recently!!) online. Nowhere in my locality has them any more. Peter - no idea! The wires under the outer sheathing on the first were badly frayed, but the second is all in good nick, everything else is plastic, but the two column stalk switches blow the fuses and a substitute doesn't. Even if the wiring under the sheathing was frayed and touching, it would only leave a permanent live so that the overdrive would be permanently on. I can't find a break anywhere which would short to earth. I'm going to try to rewire one with slightly heavier cable, just for the interest factor - it's only two soldered joints but as usual not as easy as the factory would have made it - and see how the rewired one performs. New switch on the way so we'll see what difference that makes when it arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted August 1, 2020 Report Share Posted August 1, 2020 43 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: Even if the wiring under the sheathing was frayed and touching, it would only leave a permanent live so that the overdrive would be permanently on. I don't quite get your meaning there, Colin. The wiring you listed has the permanent live fed to the inhibitor on the gearbox, then the "live" to the column is only live when in the 3rd/4th plane. If that wire were frayed it could touch the steering column, which is earthed. Peter's right about the cowl, so internal shorts inside the switch (from contact to body) wouldn't short to earth, but if the cowl is misshapen at all then the contacts in the overdrive switch could be making contact with the body of the indicator switch - and it would be very hard to see that as the condition would only exist with the cowl fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted August 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2020 7 hours ago, NonMember said: I don't quite get your meaning there, Colin. The wiring you listed has the permanent live fed to the inhibitor on the gearbox, then the "live" to the column is only live when in the 3rd/4th plane. If that wire were frayed it could touch the steering column, which is earthed. Peter's right about the cowl, so internal shorts inside the switch (from contact to body) wouldn't short to earth, but if the cowl is misshapen at all then the contacts in the overdrive switch could be making contact with the body of the indicator switch - and it would be very hard to see that as the condition would only exist with the cowl fitted. If the two cables to and from the switch were frayed and touching each other, inside of the outer coating, it would just short out the switch, so that the circuit would be permanently on. I don't think it's so close to the indicator that it's touching the metal body, nor could I find anywhere that was obviously shorting to anything metal, but in any case, the new switch has arrived so I'll be fitting it with extra care and making sure everything is isolated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted August 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2020 Latest update: new switch arrived and fitted; no more fuse blowing, all facilities on that fuse now stay on and we have reversing lights... but no overdrive at all. I replaced the metal cable cover on the underside of the steering column with a nicer one from the spares pile and it fitted a lot more easily, so there has been a lot of distortion over the years; no more compressing of the cables, all nicely routed up out of the way with cable ties, but went for a run this afternoon and no overdrive at all. At one point I thought I felt the familiar 'lurch' as it came in (or more exactly - went off) but moving the column stalk does nothing at all immediately. I'm wondering if the solenoid might be dead? It clicked once when the replacement switch was tested, but not at all since. The ICE has also stopped working, so more detective work is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Truman Posted August 3, 2020 Report Share Posted August 3, 2020 One step fed two back, now you can play with the solenoid I think Marcus had a very good thread on how to refurbish strip the solenoid down incl the coil pack, and adjust the travel pls excuse my ignorance what’s an ICE? I know it’s 6am here but my minds a blank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6M Posted August 3, 2020 Report Share Posted August 3, 2020 70,s blurb for In car entertainment 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted August 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 15 hours ago, Peter Truman said: One step fed two back, now you can play with the solenoid I think Marcus had a very good thread on how to refurbish strip the solenoid down incl the coil pack, and adjust the travel pls excuse my ignorance what’s an ICE? I know it’s 6am here but my minds a blank Must look for that; I've a run to attend on Saturday then after that two weeks to find the problem before the next one. A mate is sending me data on resistance etc so I can test the insides from outside. ICE.... er, yes. Didn't want to say radio / stereo / CD player... in case all the young 'uns called me an oldie. Daughter was aghast when I once mentioned her going to 'the pictures' so I've learned from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 4, 2020 Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 well a hours searching for J type solenoid ohms i gave up buckeye have the most clues on OD and its quirks but they dont test the resistance either https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c6dec53b10f25d4edf0b3f7/t/5d019676f90de40001aae0a2/1560385143542/J+Type+Overdrive+Part+IV.pd i would unscrew the sol with a 1"af thin spanner and bench test it the inner plunger can get stuck or its 0 rings (small ones ) fail but it should clatter the guts in and out with a 12v supply Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted August 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said: well a hours searching for J type solenoid ohms i gave up buckeye have the most clues on OD and its quirks but they dont test the resistance either https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c6dec53b10f25d4edf0b3f7/t/5d019676f90de40001aae0a2/1560385143542/J+Type+Overdrive+Part+IV.pd i would unscrew the sol with a 1"af thin spanner and bench test it the inner plunger can get stuck or its 0 rings (small ones ) fail but it should clatter the guts in and out with a 12v supply Pete I was all set to remove the entire insides of the car yet again BUT read somewhere this morning that you can access it from under the car? Have to take the Herald off the ramp first but if that's the case I can test or remove it from underneath so the gearbox tunnel can stay put. I'll have to grind down an old spanner to fit but have some in a drawer somewhere. Cheapest I can find a replacement solenoid is £140 so hope the old one can be saved. One thing I have noticed - if in the car with ignition on but engine not started, if I select 3rd gear than flick the column switch, there's a very slight - and it's very slight - dimming of the ignition and oil lights. Power is getting through somewhere, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 4, 2020 Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 dont use grips on the body it can all separate , you will geta cupful?? of oilcome out its not supposed to be gorilla tight , once un nipped use fingers never tried from under on aGT6 it may be visible but not twiddleable chris witor is 110 +vat overdrive spares 120 + vat james paddock spanner https://www.jamespaddock.co.uk/overdrive-solenoid-j-type-spanner-2 j type seal kit https://www.jamespaddock.co.uk/overdrive-seals-set-j-type-2 rimmer recon ? 77+vat https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-NKC41R bit close to a new one Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 4, 2020 Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 put a seal kit in mine when it had a mind of its own marcus has done a good post on WTF goes on inside a J solenoid Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Truman Posted August 4, 2020 Report Share Posted August 4, 2020 Colin here's Marcus's thread on the J types removal of coil case checking the movement and repair. I saved it for future reference Repairing J type Solenoid_ - Gearbox & Overdrive - The Triumph Sports Six Club Forum.mht 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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