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anti social speeding


Pete Lewis
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1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Fun, but very bad driving.     The driver should be in control of the vehicle at all times.     

Sorry, but if you can't see the road ahead, then neither can the control system.   Anticipate hazards, match your speed.     Have you ever read "Roadcraft"?   Drive like a policeman!  

Roadcraft By Police Foundation

If you take your ROSPA test and Advanced drivers test, you will never have a crash thats your fault. Best book i have read, and passed both test's. No reduction on insurance though :( 

Tony.

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1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Fun, but very bad driving.     The driver should be in control of the vehicle at all times.     

Sorry, but if you can't see the road ahead, then neither can the control system.   Anticipate hazards, match your speed.     Have you ever read "Roadcraft"?   Drive like a policeman!  

Roadcraft By Police Foundation

John

quite agree. Actually as a driver you can see the car in front but the radar sensor doesn't, I  did it to find the limits of the cruise control, I know what they are now....
I used to work for Schlumberger. There realised most accident in the oil service industry were car or van, lorry related. So they had a very strict driving controls. Everyone who did any driving for the company, including hiring a vehicle, would have a 3 day driving  education every 2 years and then a 1 day driving education every year. This included theory and practical driving with an ex police driving instructor. If you drove in a different country even for a short visit you would have to do driver training in that country before getting a hire car.
This was excellent training and reduced the number of transport related accidents significantly. I still use a lot of what I learnt from that training, it taught you to be very aware of your surroundings, in front and behind, short and long range. 
You can always tell the Schumberger drivers at a rig site as they are all reversed  parked as that was the company policy. I still do it..

Mike

mike

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13 hours ago, Dave the tram said:

 

Last thing - don’t be too hard on the cyclists Poppyman. I am also one of those Lycra clad road cyclists. Been a keen cyclist all my life (road, race, touring, commuting, mountain bike -the lot) but can’t remember ever riding on the pavement, jumping a light, or passing down the left unless taking full responsibility. I find it quite simple to stick to the rules even though I suffer occasional grief from vehicles. 
 

Think that’ll do. Guess there are just too many people wanting to do too many things in a crowded island.

Hey ho

Dave

I really hate the ones that ride around in "packs" Dave, we have a cyclist in our group but he refuses to go out with his club on a "pack" run as he know's what it is like to be behind them.  Do you ever ignore a cycle lane Dave? :) Only having a laugh

Tony.  

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When I worked for Rover, we had a few people who had a couple of bumps. OK, OK, we had one chap who crashed four engineering cars in quick succession. He got a bit of a reputation. More importantly, the department bosses realised that software/electronics engineers driving development vehicles for validation or assessment... really needed to know how to drive properly. They sent the whole department for IAM training with an ex-police driving instructor.

I always reverse-park. Of course I do - why would I want to make life hard? The rules of geometry mean it's easier to reverse in, and then you don't have to reverse out into a blind spot that somebody may walk across.

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Agreed always reverse in and come out frontwards.

my daughter when working for VW Wolfsburg was driving a development Audi thro the car park to take her boss to the train when a van/truck backed out of a parallel park hitting her in the side demolished the car fortunately the boss fully supported her and the van driver was at fault appeared there you Have to back in come out frontwards.

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Gosh, thank you all!   I expected to be flamed as a kill-joy for saying that, ( I would elsewhere!).  Instead it's agreement all-round!

Such a good point, Mike, about regular retraining.     As part of  "Appraisal", retraining is a feature of every career.    It is  extraordinary that you can take the test and get a driving licence at 17, and never ever again (unless you commit some heinous motoring offence!).       Even when you get to 70+ you only have to "renew" your licence every three years, which is basicly, yes, I'm alive enough to n write (or press keys) and can see them.     But no nation, I think, has regular driver training through life, only 'speed awareness' and the hooligans who get banned and have to take the test again - and look at the road accident figures!

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I forgot another important part of the driver training and that was to give a commentary on the situation as you drove along. Highlighting risks and what action you would take to avoid them. The trainers did this first and it was amazing what hazards they were seeing that a ordinary driver just didnt notice! Once you have identified the hazard you can then prepare an action to deal with it if needed.

Actually if we ever have another TSSC summer meeting it would be great to get a  professional driver trainer to come and take people out and to explain the hazard they see on the road.

mike

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Not long after doing the IAM training, I was driving in France with my brother (in his Mk2 Spitfire). As we approached a village, I saw a woman step off the pavement behind a parked van. I slowed down, aware of the hazard. My brother said "what ar you braking for?". I pointed forward at the woman stepping out from behind the van into the road ahead of us. "How did you see her before she was even there?" my brother asked.

Yes, observation is key, and the narrated drive / commentary is a really good way to learn to do it.

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Good point about riding in packs, which I avoid, but that’s a good example of too many people (perhaps we’ll intentioned just not really thinking) all trying to do their own thing.

it’s interesting how we all have to be careful not to swap heads as we swap modes. I know  people who will rant about a cyclists behaviour while driving their car - then get on their bike or cross the road carelessly as a pedestrian and be no better. I have to be especially true to that. I’m a keen cyclist but my career has mostly involved training and assessing professional drivers, large vehicles, defensive driving, plus collision investigation and risk assessment of certain highway designs - but have to remember we can all slip up, make mistakes, do silly things!

On reading the road ahead I often used to quote the Grand Prix race where the Argentinian supremo Fangio slowed before a corner, no one knew why and they all went round him, round the bend and piled into the accident that had happened. When asked why he slowed, he said ‘the crowed looked dark not white, It was the backs of their heads,  they were all looking the other way when the should have been looking at me - so what were they looking at’. That’s defensive driving, he drove around the lot at his own pace then won the race.

Cheers

Dave
 

 

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Me, I'm a biker, casual, not MAMIL.     And I avoid roads as far as possible, as those bloody car drivers are out to get me.     In cool weather (I don't go out in the cold or wet!) I wear a RED jacket, but still, they come out in front of me at roundabouts and turn left in front of me.     That last to do that, I turned and locked eyes with as he came up behind, but still he turned left at a junction, cutting me off  without any indication - and then swore at me!

 

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1 hour ago, mpbarrett said:

I forgot another important part of the driver training and that was to give a commentary on the situation as you drove along.

"I am currently driving along a two-way undivided road with one lane heading in either direction..." I remember that so well... 

35 minutes ago, JohnD said:

they come out in front of me at roundabouts and turn left in front of me.     That last to do that, I turned and locked eyes with as he came up behind, but still he turned left at a junction, cutting me off  without any indication - and then swore at me!

Happened to me this morning; I'm waiting at a roundabout, trying to turn left, and a cyclist comes up the inside, leans over to avoid my passenger door mirror, and moves off just as I do. I braked, he didn't. I might as well not have been there. I had to check for him - which I should not have to do, to check for other road users making an additional lane up the inside of my lane - but then had I knocked him down there'd be an outcry about how dangerous roads are for cyclists.

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That last one from Colin is interesting - note I said that I would never go down the left on my bike without taking full responsibility myself. In other words it’s for me to make sure I don’t end up alongside a vehicle that could turn left or move left squeezing me out. I’m all for increasing awareness of dangers faced by cyclists and improving safety but think cyclists have an equal part in this. Many of you may not be aware but changes to the Highway Code (and possibly some traffic law) are out for consultation now. They put more responsibility on the driver of the largest vehicle, who can do most damage. So far so good, lorry drivers should be more defensive than a person pushing pram. But some of it is a can of worms I think. It gives right of way to road users going straight on. So in Colin’s example, it would be for the car driver to wait until the bike has set off, and wait further for any pedestrian who arrived wanting to cross the side ride and go straight on, and for any more bikes that then decided to come up the left! To me this is madness and we should never encourage passing on the left. I can see that they are trying to make something that clarifies the issue when there is a designated cycle lane on the left, but to make it a general rule I think is wrong. Large vehicles, despite better mirrors now days, have blind spots and most modern cars have much worse blind spots than most of our cars - ok, some have clever side sensors etc but many don’t.
 

I’ll try and dig out a link to the consultation but a google search should bring it up. Keen cyclist as I am, I aim to respond expressing my alarm at some of it.
 

Dave

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My best story was many years ago when working as a bus driving instructor - so I had a fairly professional approach to road use. You may have views on some aspects of typical bus driver behaviour but the old PSV training and exam standard was strict, certainly back then. Cycling to work a large 6 wheeler tipper lorry overtook me but halfway past did a left hook manoeuvre. I saved myself by mounting the kerb and threw myself off. 

He stopped halfway round and when I heard the cab door slam thought ‘at least he’s coming to check on me’. Wrong  as I realised his intent, I’d have had a go at getting one in first but was still clipped into one pedal so took a full right hook in the face for my trouble.

The only good bit about the ending is that I chased after him and got his number, I had a black eye so that made it ABH, and he was an owner/driver so, amazingly, I got him prosecuted. With a criminal record he might think twice in future.

He may have got the last word though because 2 weeks later my car got paint stripper poured all over it outside my house. Still glad I nicked him though.

Dave 

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I've wanted to do the IAM for years - did do a sunday morning we will sit with you and give judgement- which was quite good - but I drove slightly differently (At the time I tend tend to drive quicker than I do now) - but I guess I was aware of it!

Fella a work has done it - following an accident he had near Spa (racing circuit) which left him with a broken back and the other car with the passenger dead and the driver badly hurt. To this day I don't know who's fault it was - he has no recollection - except where he thought he was - which he wasn't as I know where it was (I was there at the time but not with him) - I suspect it was the other drivers fault - certainly having (I believe) 4 spare wheels and tyres in the rear of the car didn't do his wife any good as that is what killed her - but the local opinion was it was his fault as he was on the wrong side of the road - anyway he was never done for it. But it did badly affect him for years (still does I expect). But he did it in Coventry and they were aware of his history and the (ex)/police drivers took him out and gave him more confidence.

 

But back to adaptive cruise - I've been to Spalding today - well the other side actually - 220mile round trip. Only had one issue which I am acutely aware of but it still surprised me - when the car slammed the brakes on because there was a car in front turning off and it decided I was going to hit it - which was absolutely not the case because it was in a filter lane!

One one that gets me is that sometimes it looses track of the car in front for no obvious reason and accelerates away!

But don't worry when the EU force us to have speed limit sign detecting cameras in our cars - which will inevitably mean forward facing radars too - every car will be making sudden and violent braking manoeuvres and the occupant  driver will be away with the fairies and asleep 

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mine came on when it felt i was took close to a parked car in a shop car park ... it did  a instant alarming   dead stop at 10-15mph  all a bit sudden 

if the warning comes up and you throttle back or make any simple reduction action it does not apply the brakes ,  i dare not test it out to see what happens 

as a following numpty has no chance ,  

on sundays return from a run  a very big wheeled tractor and trailer coming towards us just indicated right and turned point blank across my 2000   the Mintex did the business

and  clawed it into the tarmac  from 40mph  the BMW following had to dive / pull up along side us ,     this was all old school ...panic  no intelligent input   all very lucky

pete

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Dave the tram "the car slammed the brakes on because there was a car in front turning off and it decided I was going to hit it - which was absolutely not the case because it was in a filter lane!   One one that gets me is that sometimes it looses track of the car in front for no obvious reason and accelerates away!"

Pete Lewis "mine came on when it felt i was took close to a parked car in a shop car park ... it did  a instant alarming   dead stop at 10-15mph  all a bit sudden"

The manufacturers put these things into the cars as a selling ploy - look at our HiTek products!!!

But why do we tolerate their inadequate, partial perfomance.  Compared to an aircraft with autopilot, these systems are in the Stone Age.     And while I would trust skilled owners like Dave and Pete to use them, what about the 90% of drivers who consider themselves 'better than average', showing their ignorance of statistics as well as incompetence.

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44 minutes ago, JohnD said:

 

Dave the tram "the car slammed the brakes on because there was a car in front turning off and it decided I was going to hit it - which was absolutely not the case because it was in a filter lane!   One one that gets me is that sometimes it looses track of the car in front for no obvious reason and accelerates away!"

Pete Lewis "mine came on when it felt i was took close to a parked car in a shop car park ... it did  a instant alarming   dead stop at 10-15mph  all a bit sudden"

The manufacturers put these things into the cars as a selling ploy - look at our HiTek products!!!

But why do we tolerate their inadequate, partial perfomance.  Compared to an aircraft with autopilot, these systems are in the Stone Age.     And while I would trust skilled owners like Dave and Pete to use them, what about the 90% of drivers who consider themselves 'better than average', showing their ignorance of statistics as well as incompetence.

Oddly, most drivers are “better than average” -but only  in the  perverse sense that most drivers have fewer than the average number of accidents  per driver per year.This  is because some drivers have a disproportionately high number of accidents.

I commend to you.......:“ How to Drive a Motor Car”  

Brought out in the closing stages of WW1, it was written by the staff from the              “ Motor” magazine.

It advocates such things as  clutch down coasting before applying brakes, encourages using the clutch pedal as a “foot rest” (so that you can use it quickly) Using “ both” the foot and the “side brake “to stop and suggests alternating their use  on descending long hills.

It also includes such gems as “Use of the Horn”.

Whilst the section entitled “ Skidding for Safety” probably wouldn’t get into a modern book,  the  chapter  entitled “ Lady Drivers”   certainly wouldn’t - and 
after reading it - I am surprised it did then!

E876AC63-93A9-49D7-819E-BFD06DF680DE.jpeg

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An insurance claim requires an accident, the final product of a number of factors, including bad driving.     It's the "Swiss Cheese" point of view - when all the holes line up - CRASH!

The bad driving hole is seen every day on our roads.    Just now, I saw a Facebook clip, of a flood, under a bridge, with two cars already inundated.    Another car comes along and, lights ablaze, DRIVES STRAIGHT INTO THE FLOOD.     And floats away, lights ablaze.      That driver was not thinking, as are so many.      It's curious that DashCam videos from Russia etc. feature many "controlled flight into terrain" accidents, where the vehicle proceeds into danger, immediate peril, and then catastrophe with no avoiding action at all!   I presume that driving under the influence or even  asleep is more common where vodka is medicine.     In contrast DashCam videos from the UK feature Tsk,tsk! incidents, cut-ups, late braking, swerves and near-misses of all sorts with very few actual impacts.     All due to bad driving, MUCH more common than the actuarial stats indicate!

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Talking of those old days, my dad always had cars when he could, that’s probably why I’m here on this forum cos looking after my triumph uses the skills I learnt from him as a boy helping him.

He told me about buying his first car in the thirties and just driving it home. No tests of course. Having nearly crashed it at a junction, he couldn’t set off again. The policeman on traffic duty (ha!) ‘laughed his hat off’ then gave him a quick lesson on how to use the clutch before wishing him luck and sending him on his way. Guess that is nearly a century ago.

Not sure where this thread is going next

D

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Interesting thread direction and the take-away idea is that, even at the advanced age of most of us, there is always room for further training or some sort of refresher. I agree with John D about the Roadcraft book and I read it and 'Very advanced Driving' by Tom Topper when I first passed my test in the early 80s. Based on reading those I thought that I was the best driver on the road and booked an IAM test. The examiner very politely told me that I needed more experience before I stood any chance of passing; I was so insulted that I never took the test again. When I left College with my shiny Fine Art Degree I soon discovered that it was useless for getting a job and so I trained to be a bus driver. That was when I discovered exactly how little I knew about driving safely and I credit my PSV instructor for my 40 years of accident free motoring, him and a vast amount of good luck too. I don't know what you think of the current standard of PCV training and driving Dave, but I expect you'll agree that the rigour of the old PSV test can't be anything like the same. Like me I guess that you took your test on a vintage double decker with a crash gearbox and no power steering? all these years later I still double declutch as a matter of habit even though I only spent 3 years on the buses before going into teaching. Maybe it's time I tried the IAM again, but I'll need some refresher training first I fear.

Adrian KK71363

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18 hours ago, JohnD said:

No, Colin, no, no, no.

When I'M ON THE ROUNDABOUT.      And the driver is not.  They don't see cyclists.

Often the drivers don't see cyclists because they're not expecting them to do what they do - after all they, the driver, wouldn't do it. The one who goes right round the roundabout, heading for the extreme right exit, but in the left lane, all the way round, with absolutely no indication? The one who creates two lanes or even three, up the inside of cars or between two lanes of cars and then expects them to allow him to change lanes when they all move off faster than he can pedal? Or the one who doesn't even stop at the Give Way but nips round to the left in front of the on-coming car, which he expects to see and avoid him with a cheery wave? 

I give cyclists a wide berth, but for the wrong reasons. Too many cyclists expect it both ways - they want equal rights on the road, but also to be able to nip over footpaths, through red lights, weave in  and out of traffic, or hold on to the backs of cars when they want a rest.

I found this one this morning:

 

If that had been a car driver, he'd be off to court.

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