Fuel delivery Problems

[Iain T]

7 hours ago, thescrapman said:

Iain, put us out of our misery, what was wrong with the Vitesse?

or haven't you had a chance to find a quiet corner of the car park yet?

Sorry haven't been trolling the Forum, went out for a nice meal with some (2) friends last night and my wife has tasked me with DIY duty😡

First thank you to all that stopped to help. As I said I took the fuel hose off at the carbs feed pipe and there was nothing coming out so I assumed the worse! The RAC guy took the hose off at the Huco and I switched the ignition on and fuel came out...good. So he took the same hose off that I did and.......drum roll......fuel came out.....and the crowd went wild! 

No idea what the problem was or why taking the hose off at the Huco would do anything different to cracking a joint by the carbs as in between is the copper pipe?!? 

Gremlins, dredded slivers or fairy dust dunno...but the car was fine on the journey back to London. 

Suggestions please

Iain 

[Iain T]

Also just so I don't get even more paranoid than I am now I'm going to replace all the hoses for Gates spec and put an inline filter before the pump. I already have one before the carbs. 

Iain 

[NonMember]

Somebody with a Huco pump on a Vitesse was having a lot of fuel starvation problems on another forum recently. He eventually removed the filter before the pump and it fixed it. However, there were also questions of partly blocked pipes and the like.

Fit the filter nice and low down to keep a short feed to the pump - don't let it loop up or get high. This helps keep the filter full and stops it resisting the fuel flow.

One favourite Herald/Vitesse gremlin is a pin-hole in the hose out of the top of the tank, right in the corner of the boot where you can't get to it. That can let air in instead of fuel and the pump won't be able to draw the fuel out of the tank. And those sorts of holes can close up by themselves for most of the time then cause you a problem just when it's most inconvenient. I had a mouse nibble through that hose on my Vitesse and the first I knew was when it failed to re-start in the middle of its MOT.

[Pete Lewis]

air leaks in the short off the tank hose on herald/vitesse is a often ignored , gone hard. hose clips dont work area for sucking air not raising fuel , and it doenst leak petrol as there is no real head to that short  u bend run 

pete

 

[Iain T]

11 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

air leaks in the short off the tank hose on herald/vitesse is a often ignored

Is this hose a shaped special or can I use standard Gates? 

Iain 

[Paul H]

1 minute ago, Iain T said:

Is this hose a shaped special or can I use standard Gates? 

Iain 

I used standard Gates Barricade on my Vitesse . I also added an inline fuel tap which can act as a security device . I did reroute the pipe to make the tap more accessible 

Paul 

[Pete Lewis]

agree std barricade , its just a gentle curve   its not pre shaped ,  it  will be in ...........10 years time   ha !

while in there nip the sleeve nut suction pipe  to tank reserve,  nut can get loose  its just an olive 

only stops any fuel spill when  tank is very full  nowt to do with pump supplies 

pete

[Iain T]

Pete, will do. There is a slight whif of petrol in the boot so perhaps it does need nipping up? 

After my DIY efforts perhaps the boss will give me time off next week!

Iain 

[Steve P]

My Vitesse metal pickup pipe doesn`t seem to be attached to anything,i can move it about 2 inches upwards.Maybe the olive has disapperared?.

Steve

[Pete Lewis]

its   123962  seal  have a feeling its a rubber olive   

sort of thing you make from a piece of fuel hose or refit a brass olive 

its not something that gets move very often  if ever 

replacement new tanks dont have the lever or swivel action

Pete

[Peter Truman]

Here's the one out of my Vitesse its actually a Herald one, there is no olive or rubber seal it relies on the brass bush and the pipe is stopped from lifting out of the tank by the lever which engages the reserve slide on the  fuel tank body.

This is a spare from my NOS Aus supply small Herald tank as I converted my fuel tank to gravity feed by adapting the drain plug, but with the draw off level is the same. I was having trouble getting my Facet cube pump to pull the suction from the top of the tank, Facets advice a max of 13in suction and there dead on!!

[Colin Lindsay]

9 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

Here's the one out of my Vitesse its actually a Herald one, there is no olive or rubber seal it relies on the brass bush and the pipe is stopped from lifting out of the tank by the lever which engages the reserve slide on the  fuel tank body.

I think you're correct; the pipe is quite a tight fit in the brass nut and is held in only by gravity plus the sliding lever / bracket assembly, so there may be the tiniest seepage of fumes but due to the position there's not likely to be any fuel loss without any other form of seal. Now I'll have to go and check my own, just to confirm!

[Pete Lewis]

 

 why do i get the feeling  this thread drift needs its own  heading  !!!!!!!!!!!

so why does the parts list show    123962  as the seal that fits under the  sleeve nut  ??? between sleeve nut and tank union /threaded boss ,

Im certain this was a rubber /fibre olive seal just slides up the pipe and you nip it with the sleeve nut 

with no seal a full tank will leak here ,  boot full of pong 

canley also list it ( unavailable)  item 13

https://www.canleyclassics.com/?diagram=triumph-herald-13/60-petrol-system-saloon-and-convertible&ptno=123962

Pete

[Iain T]

30 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

so why does the parts list show    123962  as the seal that fits under the  sleeve nut  ??? between sleeve nut and tank union /threaded boss ,

Can't seem to find this part anywhere so it's a DIY fix if it's not there? 

Iain 

PS 

This does need to be in the Fuel Topic so other members can follow this drift

[Peter Truman]

The tank I removed the suction pipe from was a NOS Stanpart part, I can’t remember any olive under the brass sleeve and as Colin said the pipe is a neat fit in the brass sleeve not tight.

I was really responding as to what stopped the supply pipe pulling out, ie the Reserve lever and guide.
As I have converted the tank to a gravity feed thro the drain plug I have removed the suction pipe from the top and fitted a blank plug.

Obviously the parts manual should be as it was assembled.

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

So why does the parts list show    123962  as the seal that fits under the  sleeve nut  ??? between sleeve nut and tank union /threaded boss ,

Im certain this was a rubber /fibre olive seal just slides up the pipe and you nip it with the sleeve nut 

Apologies, Pete, you're correct - to be fair I was barking up the wrong olive and I knew I'd never seen one attached to the pick-up pipe when I'd removed one, but after a trawl of half a dozen tanks in the spares pile I think it's actually a rubber insert that is fitted down into the neck of the tank and the pipe pushed down through it - thus when the pipe is removed the seal stays put! I'm not disturbing these as, if they're no longer available, I can't risk damaging them but the pic should show the idea. 1200 tank on left, 13/60 on right.

 

Also just discovered there are two sizes of pickup pipe, depending on whether it's an early car or a later car... nut insert is the same size but the hole through it is bigger...

 

[Pete Lewis]

i would hazard a guess the bigger pipe is 6 cyl   smaller  4 cyl  to match the supply lines 

thought it was a rubber thing of sorts  hence idea to just cut a small section of fuel hose to make one 

anything is better than the open the boot  wiff 

same ideas as use some heater hose for the smiths heater valve orrible connecting  olive 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

40 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

i would hazard a guess the bigger pipe is 6 cyl   smaller  4 cyl  to match the supply lines 

That's possible; I thought it was a 13/60 tank but could be Vitesse. One of the Stafford Autojumble trophies from years gone by.

If it's only a top-hat kind of seal then something like this should do if ever one is required:

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

Aha   I asked Kevin to start a new heading  Thanks 

asuming it was Kevin   !!!

Pete

[KevinR]

[Iain T]

I haven't climbed in the boot yet, I assume the tank hose can be changed in situ? 

Iain 

[Colin Lindsay]

Part number 14 in this pic; I hope you'd be able to get hold of enough of the pipe behind the tank to be able to get a replacement length of hose onto it; I've never tried it myself (not without the entire tank being out already!)

[Peter Truman]

Interesting about the different sized pipes in the Herald & Vitesse tanks, it's logical, the NOS small tank I have is equipped with a 0.315in OD tank internal curved suction pipe & similar ID sized brass sealing plug this pipe is the same OD size as the Vitesse fuel delivery pipe in the boot and passing thro the floor.

Question why do I have the big  Vitesse tank curved internal suction pipe (0.315in) in the smaller NOS Herald type tank, so does the NOS fuel tank come equipped with the internal curved suction pipe or do you have to transfer over the old pipe wgen fitting a new tank, ie could someone previously have done the Vitesse pipe conversion on my NOS Herald tank?

Colin I've attached a photo of the smaller Herald tank with it's larger suction pipe outlet from the tank, the hole in the outlet boss has a slightly raised lip similar to both yours Colin and at the bottom of the steel boss it has a slightly smaller dia due to swarf so I don't think its been drilled oversize, it also appears to have the internal tinning through the hole.

Photo incorrectly titled & should be "The Smaller Herald tank with the larger piped outlet fitting" ie Vitesse!. 

Is anything "Standard" on a "Triumph"

[Peter Truman]

Further to above post an why you've been asleep I've been shopping and thinking why would my tank originally have been fitted with a larger pipe?

From the late 50's to mid 60's Heralds were assembled here in Melbourne by AMI (Associated Motor  Industries) from UK supplied CKD kits, but to minimise import tax's 20% of the car had to be locally supplied,.

In the case of the  Triumph Herald, Spitfires and 2000/2500, this included all electrics (Lucas Aus) propshafts, radiator's, hoses, and all upholstery manufacture.

Now if radiators were locally manufactured why not fuel tanks, what are the possible clues, looking at Colin's photos the reserve slide bracket is spot welded to the tank, where as mine looks brazed, similarily the pipe boss on Colin's looks brazed in vs mine possibly welded there's a lot more fill on there. Re as to why the possible Aus made tank uses larger suction pipes, I would assume that whoever made the tanks also made tanks for the local car manufactured cars eg Holden, Falcon, Valiant, which being bigger 6 cylinder cars would use the bigger 5/16in fuel pipe and the manufacturer  would possibly standardized on piping.

AMI also assembled Ramblers, Mercedes & Toyota's, with Toyota ultimately taking over the business (70's to 80's) and stopping building Triumphs which was transferred to Leyland Aus, unfortunately Toyota binned ALL AMI's records re Triumph production and history, so everything is here say..

[Colin Lindsay]

10 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

Question why do I have the big  Vitesse tank curved internal suction pipe (0.315in) in the smaller NOS Herald type tank, so does the NOS fuel tank come equipped with the internal curved suction pipe or do you have to transfer over the old pipe wgen fitting a new tank, ie could someone previously have done the Vitesse pipe conversion on my NOS Herald tank?

I'm wondering if the rubber seal had perished, so when a PO was refitting the pipe the original, small pipe was too loose and so he logically went for the larger for a more snug fit? I know the GT6 has a larger fuel pipe than my Heralds so when refitting the tank to my GT6 it cost me an entire roll of larger Kunifer pipe, so this may also apply to the Vitesse - simple for me to drop the size down to the smaller Herald pipe somewhere along the line. After 60 years, anything is possible...