Guidance from those who know?

[Paul Hewitson]

Hi everyone,

Please forgive such a broad question however here goes.

I’m considering returning to spitfire ownership however many of the cars that I’ve found out there either explicitly say the need welding or hint to it.

I was fortunate in my last spitfire that I never needed to venture into the realm of welding and sill replacement and hence I’ve no experience of either.

My question, therefore is simply this; how complicated a skill is it to learn? Is welding and panel/sill replacement absolutely only to be attempted by an experienced hand or can satisfactory (and safe) results be achieved by a newby with time on their hands, a willingness to learn, and a sufficient lack of pride to make shameless use of the message board?

[Pete Lewis]

well how longs a peice of string ,  spitty and GT6 sill are not for the faint hearted and if the sills shot it doesnt stop there the rot will be progressive to other 

close by structures  theres a good few members posted on here with their trials and tribulations 

finding car thats been done properly takes a search but as a newbie to classics and welding its not the zone i would want to start practicing 

there are good cars out there putting a patch in the floor is one thing doing a sill replacement is in need of some experience  .. just a thought 

Pete

 

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Paul Hewitson said:

My question, therefore is simply this; how complicated a skill is it to learn? Is welding and panel/sill replacement absolutely only to be attempted by an experienced hand or can satisfactory (and safe) results be achieved by a newby with time on their hands, a willingness to learn, and a sufficient lack of pride to make shameless use of the message board?

From one who doesn't know: yes.

I can't weld, even though I've had a MIG welder since 1995. I've got too many family members and friends who will do it for me, yet it looks so simple. For me there are too many fears - just my nature, I know, but I like to do things properly. How do I set the welder up initially? How do I know it's a good weld? How can I be certain that after painting and finishing I'm not going to get huge cracks, or splits, or have a patch fall off completely? How much weld can I grind back afterwards? What are the pitfalls? So many questions... but yes, if you're willing to learn, and have patience, it can't be that difficult. I just need to get round to it.

[Clive]

1 hour ago, Paul Hewitson said:

Hi everyone,

Please forgive such a broad question however here goes.

I’m considering returning to spitfire ownership however many of the cars that I’ve found out there either explicitly say the need welding or hint to it.

I was fortunate in my last spitfire that I never needed to venture into the realm of welding and sill replacement and hence I’ve no experience of either.

My question, therefore is simply this; how complicated a skill is it to learn? Is welding and panel/sill replacement absolutely only to be attempted by an experienced hand or can satisfactory (and safe) results be achieved by a newby with time on their hands, a willingness to learn, and a sufficient lack of pride to make shameless use of the message board?

I am self taught. Just (literally) come home from MoT of=n th ewifes MX5. Talking to the tester before he got started, I confessed to have welded the rear of the sill. At the end, he admitted he couldn't find i, assumed I had filled after (I hadn't, only a smear of fine stopper)

So yes, perfectly reasonable to teach yourself, a bit of practice and plenty of advice. Plus a decent Mig. ( the old snap-on/BOC/Cebora 130 migs are excellent and had for about £100) or even a little clarke. 100A enough for even chassis work, 130 better as more relaxed. Avoid SIP and cheapies.

Read the Mig welding forum, really useful. 

You need a mig, self-darkening helmet, grinder with 1mm cutting discs, grinding discs and flapwheels. Mole grips/clamps, spare metal to practice with. A (quality) joddler/hole punch is a good investment too, but about £50 for something that works.

 

[Paul Hewitson]

Thanks guys,
I’m hearing that it’s not impossible although I completely get your warning Pete and can see a lot of my own attitude in your post Colin.

I shall continue my hunt for something that treads the line between being already sorted (doesn’t strike me as engaging enough, my last one was pretty much sorted when I bought it and maintenance tinkering, whilst fun, lacks the challenge that I’m looking for) and a total wreck that needs an experienced hand at the welder.

P

 

 

 

[johny]

Unfortunately as Pete says, for anything more than basic jobs, its not just learning to weld but metal fabrication (even new panels will probably need some adjustment to fit properly) plus how to achieve the correct alignment....

[RogerH]

Hi Paul,

take heed of what Pete says. It isn't for the faint hearted.

Now lets sort your heart out.

There are two parts to this 

1 - the welding

2 - the fabrication.

Welding - you need  at least a half decent MIG welder - The Ckarke 100E (with gas) does work but has almost no refinements.

If you have a decent number of £££ in your wallet consider an R-Tec (£500) - they will give you a half day training with a new purchase.

Practice practice practice - use good clean spare mild steel to form butt joints and plug welds.   It will work with CO2 gas but use at least CO2 + Argon mix

The throw away bottles work well and not overly expensive.

Consider local night classes at a local college if they are available.

As mentioned log onto welding forums

Fabrication.

Have you got metal working tools - bending bars/snips/drills/files ...................................................

Can you use them?

Practice practice practice

Almost everybody can do anything if you know what you want and prepared to learn.

 

Roger 

[68vitesse]

When I bought my first Vitesse also bought a welder for the repairs, worked my way clockwise around the car, marked difference between my first and last welds but so far none have failed in use. My only qualifications are o level metalwork in the early sixties.

Have since made some stainless panels for the car, and also gates and other weld repairs for family, having a welder is very useful.

Regards

Paul

[JohnD]

As someone else said, Experience is something I never have until just after I've needed it.   

Go for it, Paul!   But remember the other saying, you only get to Carnegie Hall by practice, lady, practice!      Get your welder, and loads of scrap metal, clean if possible (local metal working shops may let you raid their offcuts bins).   Weld, weld, weld!

OR, find a local College of Knowledge that does a welding course.    That will provide unlimited metal to weld, plus guidnace and advice.   My alma mater does a four day(Saturdays) Intro that will taech you Gas, Stick and Mig welding, for £50 a day.  https://www.myerscough.ac.uk/courses/agricultural-engineering/basic-welding-techniques/   Longer courses may be available near you.

AND, online advice is available:  https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/ if you run into problems - not that it won't be here!

Good luck!

JOhn

[NonMember]

My brother learned to weld by rebuilding a totally rotten Mk2 Spitfire. The result wasn't perfect but most of the problems were lack of knowledge that this forum can provide (e.g. how to line up sills, which ones not to use) rather than welding issues. So I'd say go for it!

I'm not sure why Clive says to avoid SIP because my old SIP MigMate was a much better welder than the Clarke I replaced it with (when it got stolen). Perhaps, like so many things, they aren't the same as they were back then.

[Colin Lindsay]

4 hours ago, clive said:

Avoid SIP and cheapies.

Ok... so I've got a SIP 130 Migmate Turbo bought in 1995 and used less than a dozen times since... so why shouldn't I resurrect it?

[NonMember]

2 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

SIP 130 Migmate Turbo bought in 1995

Similar vintage and same model as my old one. I'd say resurrect it - mine was a good welder.

[JohnD]

Cant recall my first Mig but it was cheap because it had no cooling fan!   So it overheated after about twenty minutes of use, and wouldn't work again for a couple of hours - frustrating!   I dealt with it by buying a cheap extrator fan andtrapping that to the casing.

 

[Clive]

Sip went through a stage of being HOPELESS. I bought one late 90's and constant wire feed issues, despite fitting a metal liner etc etc. The relay for the wire feed would stick sometimes (so wire just kept feeding) . I nearly gave up welding because of it, but tried another clarke and that was fine (recently replaced with an Oxford machine, which is a real delight to use, but not cheap)

The mig welding forum offers good advice (and experiences there of SIP is generally poor)

[Colin Lindsay]

6 minutes ago, clive said:

The mig welding forum offers good advice (and experiences there of SIP is generally poor)

Ever read any of the reviews of Triumph cars?

[daverclasper]

37 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Ever read any of the reviews of Triumph cars?

Yes. But we know the score by now, you expect to have to fix an old Triumph fairly regularly (unless it's a particularly good un), but not the thing your trying to fix it with.

Reviews are odd.  Sometimes maybe false, other times I think honest ( eg Screwfix ). Can be 9 out of 10 positive, then one person gives a complete slagging and for some reason I tend to focus on that!.  

Edited October 30, 2020 by daverclasper

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, daverclasper said:

Reviews are odd.  Sometimes maybe false, other times I think honest ( eg Screwfix ). Can be 9 out of 10 positive, then one person gives a complete slagging and for some reason I tend to focus on that!.  

Here comes the thread drift: a local hotel I stayed in a while back (when you were able to do such things) had only one negative review, 'terrible'. Why? "We can't fault the hotel but the weather was bad."

[Clive]

11 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Ever read any of the reviews of Triumph cars?

OK, you may have one that works fine, but as I said, the one I owned had constant issues. And many others have reported the same thing. 

Give it a try, but my advice is:

1. Brand new wire, fresh from the shop. Andy surface blemishes on it WILL cause grief. This applies to any welder.

2. Fit a metal liner, not expensive, and work better. Every now and again, blow it out with compressed air to prevent th3 build up of crud.

3. Better still, fit a euro torch kit.

4. If you are still struggling, bin the welder, buy a better one. Honestly, night and day between the SIP and Clarke. But the swap to Oxford made me feel like a pro welder, it just works perfectly every time I pull the trigger, just adjust the power. No fuss. (friend who did a lot of welding, Arc, Mig and gas, now cant as he has a pacemaker) is often around and he is impressed by the noise the Oxford makes. The noise is the easiest way to tell how well it is welding. I was torn between the R tec (inverter) and Oxford (traditional transformer based) machines. However, as mine gets used intermittently, and left in the garage, I went for a transformer version. If I was using it every day, I would have gone for the R tec. Especially if in needed moving around a lot. MUCH lighter.

[mark powell]

No probs with my old SIP 130. Been in use since early 90's, although a new torch was needed after about 20 years....  I've lost count of the cars, trucks, vans and sundry projects that have been rejuvenated by it!

[NonMember]

2 hours ago, clive said:

Honestly, night and day between the SIP and Clarke.

Oh yes, I agree with that. It's just that in my case the SIP was great and the Clarke was pants.

[Pete Lewis]

my old sip  we made a extra wire feeder roller   support  ( a bridge )  so it gripped/supported both ends of the rollers  the wire and stopped the rollers opening under tension 

then the wire fused to the nozzle and not repaired or used it since ,it just gathers dust 

there was a plan to add a separate feed transformer to keep the feed speed constant  and not spiked by the arc load 

so get the best you can 

Pete

 

[daverclasper]

On 30/10/2020 at 08:57, Colin Lindsay said:

How do I know it's a good weld?

I think that's a good question? (with regard to the "learn it in an afternoon" thing).  I have had some MIG practice over the years (though nothing structural), and quite recently went on a NVQ level 1 course (about 20 hours).

To pass, one had to produce welds that "looked good".  At the end of the course the tutor, gave us a taster of the level 2 course. To produce welds that "held up". This involved smacking with a big lump hammer and also making a serious bend.

If I remember, about 50% failed, and I think that most folk were at a similar standard by then, so it was sort of luck?, for the ones that passed.

Also I remember thinking, that hitting with a lump hammer, maybe not the same as a full on car smash (though maybe academic regarding the safety design of old cars anyway😉).

Recently bought a R Tech 180 amp and haven't used it much, (though way better than the Liddel, gasless one I was struggling with). Uk made, though Siemens parts. Brilliant help and advice if needed (have produced their own video's). Very friendly staff and have a 3 year guarantee. (It was a shop spoiled one, very tiny dink in the cover at £450, with free delivery.

Now where's that lump hammer?. 

Dave

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by daverclasper

[JohnD]

How to test a weld?    The lump hammer is valid, IMHO, but there are other methods:  https://www.element.com/materials-testing-services/weld-testing-methods

When I did a course, we were made to saw across the weld, then use a file and emery paper to smooth the cut surface and apply acid, to show up penetration.    This is "etching the weld".

Strong acids, or Ferric Chloride, are substances you really don't want about the house, but I've heard of people using "Naval Jelly" rust remover, and electrolysis, with the test piece on the positive electrode so that it is eroded, not plated.

This is obviously a destructive test, as is the hammer, that tells about your tecnique, not an actual weld on the car.    There, it's best to rely on experinece, so practice, lady, practice!

John

 

[daverclasper]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

When I did a course, we were made to saw across the weld, then use a file and emery paper to smooth the cut surface and apply acid, to show up penetration.    This is "etching the weld".

Forgot, we also cut across the weld, though just checked visually for porosity/penetration, I think?.

[PeteH]

Hi.

Welding is (like Painting) ALL about preparation. I have seen beautiful welds, which when we x-ray sectioned them where so full of slag and porosities that they where scrap. and had to be grooved out and remade. I have spent many a (Happy?) hour perusing weld X-rays. Some guys/gals can produce, some cannot. There are standard test pieces needed for certification to work on pressure vessels, and must be capable of withstanding both bend and shearing tests. BTW. Billy Connoly, tells how the welders on the Clyde often filled the fillet welds with rods and welded over to speed the job and make the bonus!. I had the (unfortunate) occasion to witness this at first hand when we discovered in a dry-docking several metres of strake missing and little or no sign of weld penetration.

Getting the weld area clean, and free of paint and corrosion is half way there. Then having the correct settings for the material to be used is essential. I am well practised in the theory, but my output still looks like "bird poo", thank god for the angle grinder and 40 grit flap-wheels, and despite which I have hung my weight on my welding!!. My excuse is lack of practice, I won`t blame my SIP 150 turbo, despite having had to replace the control board.

Pete