A new start.......er?

[Nick Jones]

The Trooper 2.6 starter is definitely fine on the 4cyl cars ...... having recently fitted one to our Spitfire. However, my feeling was that it wouldn’t be a great fit on a 6 due to the  general orientation and especially cable connections.

Our Trooper starter cost a princely £48 delivered for a UK supplier. Te manufactured I suspect, but it works just fine.

Nick

[Bob Horner]

Now, I’m all for spending unnecessary sums of money on cars in the dubious hope it will make them go faster or stop a bit quicker, but I’ve never had the urge to ever upgrade a starter motor because, in my experience of running three triumphs simultaneously  (TR4, mk3 Spit and Mk2 GT6) I’ve never had a problem with a starter motor in terms of reliability or its ability to spin and start an engine.  Am I alone in this fool’s paradise?

Bob

[NonMember]

No, Bob, you're not alone. In all my years of owning Triumphs I've never once felt the need to upgrade the starter motor. I've replaced a few worn out ones with replacement standard ones, usually with the same vast increase in cranking speed that the upgraders boast of.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bob Horner said:

I’ve never had a problem with a starter motor in terms of reliability or its ability to spin and start an engine.  Am I alone in this fool’s paradise?

 

1 hour ago, NonMember said:

No, Bob, you're not alone. In all my years of owning Triumphs I've never once felt the need to upgrade the starter motor.

Ditto and that also applies to other classics I own and have owned. 

Regards.

Richard.

[Clive]

4 hours ago, Bob Horner said:

Now, I’m all for spending unnecessary sums of money on cars in the dubious hope it will make them go faster or stop a bit quicker, but I’ve never had the urge to ever upgrade a starter motor because, in my experience of running three triumphs simultaneously  (TR4, mk3 Spit and Mk2 GT6) I’ve never had a problem with a starter motor in terms of reliability or its ability to spin and start an engine.  Am I alone in this fool’s paradise?

Bob

My starter struggled on my Vitesse when I rebuilt and fitted a 2.5, I tried several starters that I had, they were all the same. This was before the high torque type, so I lived with it until the engine loosened up.

I am actually working on my spit starter at the moment. Zetec engine, T9 box. Moving the starter from the "pinto Position as it sits just over the exhaust, tends to cook te built-in solenoid. (luckily the bellhousing is steel not cast, so welds nicely)

Like you, go/stop faster bits are always a good way to lighten the wallet  🙂

 

[SixasStandard]

In my opinion the reasons for changing to a High Torque gear reduction starter are a combination of: increased cranking speed, reduced power demand on the battery, and lower weight. There are other benefits, such as the better location of the armature, and the flexibility to convert the starter to a pre-engaged type with simple cable connection changes.   

In my case the decision to replace the starter motor stemmed from the failure of the original, and the badly corroded armature and badly worn pinion gear that I discovered when I removed the OE unit. Refurbishment wasn't worth the expense, as the unit was end of life. Faced with the prospect of replacing the original with a similar unit, or with a more modern efficient and reliable alternative, the decision was an easy one.

In much the same way as I chose to replace the failing dynamo on my car with a more modern efficient alternator, I would always look at making the car more usable and reliable when failure forces me to replace a component. The HT starter is just one modification in a long list that we might consider for our cars, like CV driveshaft conversions, modern adjustable dampers, electronic ignition etc etc etc...........I don't imagine that those mods raise too many eyebrows.

Ian      

[SixasStandard]

After some hard bargaining I now have a 'Wasp' HT starter on order from crack bay specifically for the Vitesse/GT6. The final price was less than the club shop offering, so I got a good deal.

Once I have the starter/solenoid cable/heat shield material I'll update the thread with my progress, and my impressions of the installed unit's performance, for those that are interested in such things.

Ian  

[Pete Lewis]

they are a real blessing  you get the feeling you could start the car with a torch battery 

it will fling it over like fury compared to the direct driven old bendix units 

the low current is just down to little high speed motor running through a gearbox to gain the torque required 

the first flick on the key makes all the heart ache and decision making worth it 

its whizzo  stuff 

pete

 

 

[Roger K]

I usually end up with Hi-torque starters on my cars, they're just so much faster to spin (useful when you have a mechanical fuel pump and need to build up a head), and so much nicer to fit, due to being significantly smaller.

I fitted one to my big block '68 Mustang in 2005, which has stainless 3" headers going down to a collector just 1" from the starter power cable and the clutch cable.  A good quality aluminium cloth heat sleeve covers both, and I've never had a problem with heat damage.  Modern heat protection materials are incredible, light years ahead of what we used to use.

[SixasStandard]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

they are a real blessing  you get the feeling you could start the car with a torch battery 

it will fling it over like fury compared to the direct driven old bendix units 

the low current is just down to little high speed motor running through a gearbox to gain the torque required 

the first flick on the key makes all the heart ache and decision making worth it 

its whizzo  stuff 

pete

 

 

Thanks Pete.........'whizzo stuff'........onomatopoeia at its finest!!

Ian

[SixasStandard]

1 hour ago, Roger K said:

I usually end up with Hi-torque starters on my cars, they're just so much faster to spin (useful when you have a mechanical fuel pump and need to build up a head), and so much nicer to fit, due to being significantly smaller.

I fitted one to my big block '68 Mustang in 2005, which has stainless 3" headers going down to a collector just 1" from the starter power cable and the clutch cable.  A good quality aluminium cloth heat sleeve covers both, and I've never had a problem with heat damage.  Modern heat protection materials are incredible, light years ahead of what we used to use.

Hello Roger,

I've opted for the sort of heat reflective adhesive sheet that they fit to the underside of kitchen counter tops where a cooker is installed. Cheap as chips and should be good enough when combined with a custom made alloy shield. I'm toying with the idea of making some louvres in the end of the shield, which might seem counter-intuitive, but maintaining at least some flow of air over the starter would seem like a good idea. 

Ian   

[Pete Lewis]

the only Whizzo i knew was many happy hours talking to  Barry ( Whizzo) Williams when i helped with the Ecurie Ecosse team Commer TS3 

transporter   and as a driver he was   definitley a  whizzo  

at a good few Jag races ..  happy days 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

Founder of the Whizzo Chocolate Company of Monty Python fame?

[SixasStandard]

Still waiting for the power cable to be delivered, but in the meantime have fitted the HT starter and had a go at mocking up a heat shield with cardboard. Long story short there just isn't enough available space to fit anything in there, so I've given the idea up as a bad job. Sometimes you can end up creating more problems than you solve by fiddling about like this, so in this case best to just leave well alone. Longer term I'll be wrapping the exhaust manifold and down pipe anyway.

One point that might be worth mentioning regarding the WOSP HT starter (and the Powerlite as well), is that you need to retain the OE spacer used in conjunction with the old inertia unit. This is probably obvious, but I checked the throw on the WOSP unit and then measured the distance between the starter ring gear and the mounting flange just to be on the safe side. There's no mention of this in the instructions that came with the WOSP, which are just generic........so be aware of this if fitting one yourself.   

Ian 

[SixasStandard]

The power cable for the HT starter turned up this morning, so it was straight out to the garage to get it fitted and (hopefully) get the old girl fired up. WOW!!! what a difference. The cranking speed is just so much higher now, and despite the car having sat in the garage for weeks without a start she literally burst into life after a matter of a few seconds. This is definitely one upgrade that I would recommend to other owners, particularly those with larger Triumph engines like the straight six or the V8. I am now a convert, and will be upgrading any classics that I own in the future. The only criticism I have of the Wosp offering is the cable that they supply to bypass the internal solenoid, which due to its short length means that it loops round and comes closer to the exhaust system. I opted to make my own, longer version, which allowed me to loop it the other way round, and hence take it away from the exhaust. This is nit picking though, and the HT unit itself is a good quality Denso manufactured item, so should be reliable and long lived.

Ian      

[Pete Lewis]

pleased its up to expectation 

thats another convert    ha !! 

as a heat shield  room is restricted  would a heat sink panel fit with a jubby clip on the   exhaust  primery ???

Pete

[SixasStandard]

52 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

pleased its up to expectation 

thats another convert    ha !! 

as a heat shield  room is restricted  would a heat sink panel fit with a jubby clip on the   exhaust  primery ???

Pete

Hello Pete,

That could work, but to be honest I've now moved the Vitesse into Winter storage to free up the garage for my Alpine 'weldathon', so the 'Vit' will be taking a back seat for a while. At least I can start the Vitesse now........so that is progress!!

Ian

[Pete Lewis]

did you see the 5k miles  alpine on bangers for cash auctions  ???

I had ordered a Alpine but had to cancel as baby now underway  ended up with an Avenger 

Pete

[AndyTV8]

4 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

 

I had ordered a Alpine but had to cancel as baby now underway  ended up with an Avenger 

 

Ditto...... my father had to cancel his Sunbeam Alpine order when news of my arrival broke - changed to a Herald 1200 estate, so not all bad  

...... Andy 

[SixasStandard]

17 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

did you see the 5k miles  alpine on bangers for cash auctions  ???

I had ordered a Alpine but had to cancel as baby now underway  ended up with an Avenger 

Pete

I watched the re-run of the 'Bangers and Cash' episode last night (one of my favourite programmes by the way). Having such a proven low mileage example, and bearing in mind its lovely condition, made the car pretty unique, and yet it only fetched 14k. There were some changes from OE spec, someone had added side indicators to the front wings (their placement just below the 'Alpine' script was terrible!), and the engine had a Weber carb fitted, replacing the original twin Strombergs ( a very good upgrade), but it just went to prove the over-valuation of a lot of Alpines currently on the market. Don't get me wrong, I love the cars, but anyone expecting to get North of 12 to 13k for a well restored Alpine needs their head examining. My Alpine is a Series 3 GT, the most sought after model, and yet I have no illusions about how much it will take to restore it, or that I'd get anywhere near to recouping that expenditure if I ever came to sell it. To my mind you're paying for the experience of the restoration, not what it'll fetch afterwards.

Right.......time to get off the orange box and fire up the kettle!

Ian   

[Pete Lewis]

is that a HT kettle  ???   you begin to wonder that the 5K on the oddometer is a bit ambiguous 

why would you do those  changes and never use it  ,, doesnt  really  add up 

Pete

[SixasStandard]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

is that a HT kettle  ???   you begin to wonder that the 5K on the oddometer is a bit ambiguous 

why would you do those  changes and never use it  ,, doesnt  really  add up 

Pete

If 'HT' stands for 'High Tea' then yes!!

It always amazes me when these ultra low mileage cars turn up........like you say, why buy the bloody thing if you're not going to use it.  Just to prove that such 'Unicorns' do exist though........an elderly neighbour sought my advice a few days ago about a car she was being offered. Her 20 year old Toyota had finally blotted its copy book by starting to display an engine warning light (there goes the myth of Japanese reliability!!!!). A friend of hers in London has just stopped driving due to health problems, and has offered her his 2010 Fiat Panda for free (yes.......i did say free!). The mileage on this 10 year old work horse?.........7,750 miles!!!  It's enough to make you weep!

Ian  

[Pete Lewis]

Aha  soon be a classic ... but who would want a   Panda 

had to use the early tin box version as a courtesy car , i used to hide in the back corner of the works car park and creep in quietly 

I had traded my Renault 25 in for a Tipo  1.9 turbo diesel   was quick when the blower got going , but too many concerns it got swapped for another R 25

as spent more time in the panda than the tipo    do we ever learn !!!

Pete

 

[SixasStandard]

16 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

Aha  soon be a classic ... but who would want a   Panda 

had to use the early tin box version as a courtesy car , i used to hide in the back corner of the works car park and creep in quietly 

I had traded my Renault 25 in for a Tipo  1.9 turbo diesel   was quick when the blower got going , but too many concerns it got swapped for another R 25

as spent more time in the panda than the tipo    do we ever learn !!!

Pete

 

I went through a phase of repeat FIAT offending during the 80s/90s, had an Uno, Tipo, Tempra, Bravo 1.8 HLX (brilliant car until the cam belt went on the M1), and finally a Marea. Cheap reliable utilitarian transport when you had a mortgage to pay.........but that Bravo........it really was a cracking little car.

Ian  

[ahebron]

On 22/11/2020 at 22:43, Nick Jones said:

The Trooper 2.6 starter is definitely fine on the 4cyl cars ...... having recently fitted one to our Spitfire. However, my feeling was that it wouldn’t be a great fit on a 6 due to the  general orientation and especially cable connections.

Our Trooper starter cost a princely £48 delivered for a UK supplier. Te manufactured I suspect, but it works just fine.

Nick

It works fine on the 6 cylinder. Cables are not that hard to access once fitted, just as always disconnect the battery end first.🤪
And IIRC  a new drain hole is advisable but that is easy to do

Adrian