2000 Mk II Saloon gearbox in Vitesse

[Roger]

Hi All,

Early 1966 Vitesse.

I’m desperately trying to find & combine the parts needed to get my Vitesse back on the road again. I was hoping to use an MB engine from a Mk I Saloon combined with the original early HC-gearbox but it was not as straight forward as I thought. My options now is to either modify (shorten) the input shaft om my HC gearbox, or try to use a gearbox from a 2000 Mk II Saloon. The saloon gearbox seems to be a lot bigger than the original Vitesse gearbox and I wonder how much I have to modify my chassie in order to make room for it. I know that there are many Vitesses on the road with both engines and gearbox from a saloon. The clutch and clutch mechanism is missing on my saloon gearbox, but it seems like Chris Witors has most of those items for sale. PO stored this gearbox without oil for decades so there are some surface rust on some of the gears but I think it could be used.

Do anyone here have pictures on (or can describe) how you modified your Vitesse chassie when using a Saloon gearbox? Thanks in advance.

Roger

 

[Pete Lewis]

apart from a support arrangement you need to construct  i reckon its the lower chassis flanges need removing as the box is wider at its rear end than the 3 rail

just check what clutch operation is needed with mk1  flywheel and m2 gearbox seeing as you have a good selection of mix and non match f/wheels and cranks 

( there are some use the sprint clutch  slave  lever  /reversed up high set up )

 

happy christmas 

 

Pete

[Nigel Clark]

There are least a couple of forum members who have been down this route, sure someone with the relevant experience will be along soon.

All I can say is that the big saloon gearbox can be made to fit, and it's much stronger than the Vitesse box. As Pete says, you will need to fabricate a new rear mount, probably shorten the propshaft too.

Nigel

[Clive]

I did it. But with an overdrive box, the non od will be easier to fit I think.

You need a dolly sprint cross shaft and clutch slave cylinder mount. Or cut/weweld your cross shaft (what I did)

I welded a plate between the chassis rails for the gearbox mount. 

Custom length prop.

I had to "relieve" the chassis rail upper lips in a few places. Non od should be easier.

[Roger]

Thanks everyone! I feared that your answers would start with "you will need..." 😣I guess I have to put gearbox and engine back and just see what part of the chassie fouls in order to see exactly what I have to do and how to proceed. But as someone mentioned these engines weigh as much as a small planet. I don't look forward to the exercise but at least I will burn some calories. A lot of calories...

[Roger]

7 hours ago, clive said:

You need a dolly sprint cross shaft and clutch slave cylinder mount

To my knowledge Dolly Sprint was never sold here in Scandinavia (I have never seen one here at least) so I guess it's e-bay or UK source again. Are these parts rare or hard to find? Any suggestion for supplier? Thanks

[Roger]

7 hours ago, clive said:

Or cut/weweld your cross shaft (what I did)

I don't have the cross shaft either. Does this mean that if I cut and weld a cross shaft from a Saloon then I don't need any Dolly Sprint parts?

[Clive]

The saloon cross shaft has teh lever hanging down. Not good, your chassis is in the way. Sprint cross shaft points up, and is bent so it stays close to the gearbox. The sprint slave cylinder mount is pretty essential. Back then (when I did mine) they were available new for £10, no only secondhand. You may need the bushes that fit in the bellhousing too?  Have you got the clutch release mechanism at all? (I may. just may, have a slave cylinder mount in the garage)

[Roger]

Thanks Clive! No, all clutch parts are missing. I have the gearbox and the engine (and flywheels) thats it. But I will ask PO (in Stockholm)  if he might have the clutch mechanism lying in a box somewhere in his garage. Thanks for your offer,  appreciated.

[Colin Lindsay]

How much do the internals from the saloon box differ from the Vitesse? There's an empty gearbox casing on eBay at present for £12 - could you swap over the internals?

[johny]

The Sprint gearbox is certainly closer to the original in terms of ratios as from what I can see for 1st gear its: original 2.65, Sprint 2.99 and Saloon 3.28.

I wonder how Clive found the change because I think even the standard box is a bit low geared in 1st....

[Roger]

The saloon gearbox does not seem to share many parts with the Vitesse (just by looking at it). But I just got a reply from PO he will dig deep in his pile of saloon parts and get back to me this evening. It seems like Chris Witor also have most of the parts for the clutch mechanism so there is still hope!

[Roger]

2 minutes ago, johny said:

The Sprint gearbox is certainly closer to the original in terms of ratios as from what I can see for 1st gear its: original 2.65, Sprint 2.99 and Saloon 3.28.

I don't have the luxury of choosing ratios in neither gearbox nor diff. Whatever I get my hands on that brings it back on the road will be used :-)

[Pete Lewis]

the big box is a brick sh1t house in comparison to the 3raail /1 rail units  its a  completely butch design never wears out a quick look inside and they are

very chalk and cheese if only they used it on the small chassis 6 cyls we would not be scratching around for reliable units 50 yrs on.

   that was probably all down to costs 

Pete

[NonMember]

24 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

if only they used it on the small chassis 6 cyls we would not be scratching around for reliable units 50 yrs on.

   that was probably all down to costs

Well, in fairness, the small box was an existing design (from the Standard 8/10) just as the big saloon one was (from the Vanguard). Most car manufacturers use different gearboxes on small and large engines. Sometimes that means they fit different manual boxes to different examples of one model - just like the Dolomite 1850 and Sprint, or the Rover 214 and 220 - and sometimes it means they push the limits of the box that fits in the chassis.

[Nick Jones]

While I don’t wish to be negative and I do appreciate the difficulty of getting parts where you are, is a brief sanity check in order?

The engine chosen seems to cause maximum difficulty on all fronts. No engine mount bosses and, I assume, a long-backed crankshaft, which is presumably why the Vitesse gearbox can’t easily be used?

So, in order to use this engine you will need to find a way of mounting it, and a way of mounting the gearbox, and a way to make the clutch work, and a modified Propshaft, and a way to connect/calibrate your speedo.......

Is this engine known for absolute certain to be in perfect running order?If not, it cannot be worth the fairly extreme effort?

Nick

[Roger]

Hi Nick, the engine I planned to use is not "bossless small crank" it is a later saloon Mk I (MB prefix "with boss") and I honestly don't know why my Vitesse HC gearbox wont fit despite Vitesse flywheel etc. My Vitesse engine is one of the first hence small crank. My thinking was that my gearbox from a small crank vitesse engine would fit a small crank engine from a saloon... It certainly does not fit the MB "big crank" engine I have.

[Clive]

5 hours ago, johny said:

The Sprint gearbox is certainly closer to the original in terms of ratios as from what I can see for 1st gear its: original 2.65, Sprint 2.99 and Saloon 3.28.

I wonder how Clive found the change because I think even the standard box is a bit low geared in 1st....

First gear was hopeless. After that ist was OK.

This was on a 2.5 vitesse, initially with a 3.27 but they kept breaking (a couple quite spectacularly) so changed to 3.63 which coped.

Interestingly (or not) gearstick came out in the original position. I seem to remember a bit of faff with the heater box under the dash getting in the way when fitting/removing th ebox, and I used wing nuts. 

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Roger said:

My thinking was that my gearbox from a small crank vitesse engine would fit a small crank engine from a saloon...

Unfortunately there are two completely different "small vs big" qualifiers on the 2L crank.

The usual one, which is age related and changes mid-production on all Mk1 models, is "small bearing", meaning 2 inch diameter mains, vs "large bearing", being 2.3 inch mains in common with the 2.5L. The gearbox cares not one jot about that.

The other one, which is a difference between Vitesse/GT6 and (some versions of?) 2000 saloon, is "short tail" vs "long tail". This refers to the length of the bit of the crank that sticks out beyond the rear main bearing and oil seal. That's where you have a problem, as the gearbox / bell housing / clutch cares very deeply about it.

[johny]

I would have thought every 2000 saloon engine must be long tail as otherwise there would have to be either two types of big gearbox or a bell housing adaptor spacer....

[Roger]

Looking at pictures there is at least one ”small crank +short tail” engine for sale in sweden from an early saloon. Im not sure but maybe that block is identical with my original vitesse block minus the boss. If so, I would investigate the possibility to make an adapter to compensate for the missing boss.

The engine for sale has number MH44HE and my Vitesse engine has HC585. Both very low numbers so maybe (I'm only guessing!) they might share the same combination of "crank diameter and tail length". Or maybe I just wish, since I'm a bit desperate to find a combination that works. I wish I had access to the abundance of spare parts you have in the UK.

[Pete Lewis]

just to cast the mind back   whats wrong with the HC engine or why not use its crank   ???

pete

[thescrapman]

7 hours ago, Roger said:

Hi Nick, the engine I planned to use is not "bossless small crank" it is a later saloon Mk I (MB prefix "with boss") and I honestly don't know why my Vitesse HC gearbox wont fit despite Vitesse flywheel etc. My Vitesse engine is one of the first hence small crank. My thinking was that my gearbox from a small crank vitesse engine would fit a small crank engine from a saloon... It certainly does not fit the MB "big crank" engine I have.

I did mention,  the MB engine will not work with the Vitesse flywheel as the MB crank is an inch longer, so fitting the Vitesse flywheel puts it an inch further back. 

It needs a Mk1 2000 flywheel.

[thescrapman]

6 hours ago, johny said:

I would have thought every 2000 saloon engine must be long tail as otherwise there would have to be either two types of big gearbox or a bell housing adaptor spacer....

Different flywheels takes care of that.

i need to see if I ca get a couple of photos.

[Roger]

11 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

just to cast the mind back   whats wrong with the HC engine or why not use its crank   ???

The HC engine is frozen and has long cracks. The HC crank is probably ok, but it is "small crank" and I have 3 other engines (in different condition) but they all have "large diameter" cranks. Hence my questions about bossless small crank engines.