Payen

[AidanT]

Hi

Opinions please

Can anyone confirm or rubbish the attached?

https://m.facebook.com/groups/116689651680167/permalink/3748877951794634/

 

Thanks

 

Aidan

 

 

[Nick Jones]

I have previously been told by Chris Witor (who is a pretty reliable source in these matters) that there is a problem with the Payen AK280 recessed block gaskets for the Mk2 6 cylinder engines. Basically the fire rings are made wrong and they don’t work as gaskets!

Can’t comment on the rest.

Nick

[Colin Lindsay]

I'm trying to work out the lower part of the post; is TLD saying that these 'Ajusa' gaskets have insufficient drillings for GT6 waterways? Whilst it's possible to drill them we need fuller details ie do they work on later models and are just incorrect for early GT6, or does this drilling have to be done on all, for all 6 cylinder models? Can anyone who uses FB confirm, maybe by posting the question?

[AidanT]

Hi Colin 

I got this back from him which may clarify

Yes have a really good gasket for flat top blocks. Made by Ajusa was made to replace the copper Asbestos Mk I Gasket. Foetunately they made the stud holes larger so can fit on Mk II engine blocks. I drill a couple of extra water holes as these gaskets do not have the curved water way hole front & rear

 

Not sure if it all makes sense but as my engine is not recessed I think the Payen may well be fine

 

Aidan

 

[AidanT]

Also here goes ano dumb question

What's the difference between recessed and Flat ?  Can someone show both in a picture?  ITs one of those "I think i know" but actually I'm not 100% sure !!

 

Aidan

 

[Colin Lindsay]

7 minutes ago, AidanT said:

What's the difference between recessed and Flat ?  Can someone show both in a picture?  ITs one of those "I think i know" but actually I'm not 100% sure !!

The recess is a ring cut around the top of the piston bore to enable a thicker gasket (with a deeper metal ring) to create a better seal around the cylinder. It's only about 0.030 deep. There's no way to tell from the outside if it's recessed or not, so you need to go by the engine number, or the head gasket may stick out at the end with a visible 'tab'. Left photo is a non-recessed Herald 1200, right is a recessed Spitfire engine. See the broader ring round each piston?

 

[Pete Lewis]

a recessed block has a ring cut out about the size of the gasket fire rings just around the top of the bore  the idea is this supports the fire rings 

a flat block is just that the whole top face is   just  flat

recessed block gaskets have a small rectangular tab sticks out the rear face so you can see it down below the rear end of the head 

[JohnD]

Aidan,

Later sixes (and fours??) had a shallow recess machined into the block face around each bore.    The gasket is made with a flange folded around each bore hole to make it extra thick just there.      It's the same idea as a "Fire Ring" 

This block does NOT have recesses

 

This one DOES

[JohnD]

Drat & Double Drat!

Colin and Pete way ahead!

So I'll add - a 'recessed' gasket has a tab on one short edge.  That goes at the back.

[AidanT]

Thanks  It is as I thought (sigh of relief 🙂) I definitely have the flat one!

Aidan

[Sparky_Spit]

I am waiting on James Paddocks to send me a Payen head gasket for a recessed block 1500, which has been on back-order for a few months now.  They say that their supplier is waiting on new gaskets to be manufactured.  I know that a new manufacturer or maybe even a new factory is being used for Payen production, but that was some time ago now.  The head gaskets for the 6cyl and 4cyl engines must be made of the same material and the fire rings must be similar surely?

The engine in question has previous when it comes to head gaskets and is a bit choosey in that it needs one with perfect fire rings.  I offered up an unused spare Payen one this afternoon and the fire ring fit is perfect with respect to the block, although I'm not going to use it as it has been in the boot of the car as a spare for a couple of years and its "stickiness" is a bit suspect.  I will, however, be able to check the quality and fit of the new one against the spare one when it does finally turn up.  It might be interesting.....  Hopefully not.

[Nigel Clark]

12 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

I have previously been told by Chris Witor (who is a pretty reliable source in these matters) that there is a problem with the Payen AK280 recessed block gaskets for the Mk2 6 cylinder engines. Basically the fire rings are made wrong and they don’t work as gaskets!

Can’t comment on the rest.

Nick

I've heard the same from Chris Witor. He supplied an alternative recessed block head gasket (I don't know the source) for my GT6's 2.5 saloon engine about 2 years ago.

So far it's fine. Like Nick, I respect Chris Witor's advice.

Nigel

[AidanT]

I was looking at fleabay to buy but I need a full set so maybe it's worth me giving Mr Witor a call then. It would be good to source the whole set together I think

 

Aidan

[Nigel Clark]

4 hours ago, AidanT said:

I was looking at fleabay to buy but I need a full set so maybe it's worth me giving Mr Witor a call then. It would be good to source the whole set together I think

 

Aidan

On eBay, you're trusting to luck, some gaskets may be excellent, but perhaps some are not.

Buying from Chris Witor gave me a lot of confidence in the parts I needed for my full engine rebuild. He is very knowledgeable and his reputation is first class. His prices are also fair.

Nigel

[AidanT]

Thx Nigel

Aidan 

[Anglefire]

@JohnD Yes the 1500 Spitfire engine at least does have a recessed block. And there is a tab at the back to indicate same. 

[John Martin]

Morning Nigel,

During lockdown I decided my TR6 should be re-commissioned after a 35 + year slumber! I have completed a rebuild of brakes, suspension etc and am about to start on the engine re-build. The head is back from the machine shop from where i bought a Payen gasket set but forgot to ask about using a sealant or not. The block is a recessed one, what is your view and which sealant would you or did you use?

Cheers

John

(Next door to TSSC)

[Nick Jones]

The Payen head gasket is coated and doesn’t require any additional sealant.

That said I do tend to put a very thin smear on the outer edge by the tappet chest and also around the oil feed hole at the back (stay back from the hole a bit so it doesn’t squash into it when everything gets compressed.

I’ve used blue hylomar and Reinzosil for this in the past.

[Roger K]

Does anyone know if this AJUSA head gasket will fit a late MKIII GT6 2000 engine?  I'm planning a head job over the winter and do not wish to risk a Payen. Is there any way of finding out the part number?  Don't have FB myself.  Or maybe just ask Chris Witor what's best?

Edit - that said, just looked at Chris Witor's website and the photo of a 2000 gasket appears to be a Ajusa, going by the packaging next to it.

[Nigel Clark]

3 hours ago, John Martin said:

Morning Nigel,

During lockdown I decided my TR6 should be re-commissioned after a 35 + year slumber! I have completed a rebuild of brakes, suspension etc and am about to start on the engine re-build. The head is back from the machine shop from where i bought a Payen gasket set but forgot to ask about using a sealant or not. The block is a recessed one, what is your view and which sealant would you or did you use?

Cheers

John

(Next door to TSSC)

Hi John,

I did exactly as Nick advises above...

2 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

The Payen head gasket is coated and doesn’t require any additional sealant.

That said I do tend to put a very thin smear on the outer edge by the tappet chest and also around the oil feed hole at the back (stay back from the hole a bit so it doesn’t squash into it when everything gets compressed.

I’ve used blue hylomar and Reinzosil for this in the past.

I've used Wellseal and on Nick's advice, I've tried Reinzosil. The pushrod side of the head gasket is always difficult to seal and Reinzosil seems to be the most effective on my TR6. This area has persistently wept oil in the past and is now dry.

I've also used Reinzosil on the inlet manifold of the Ford Essex V6 in my Scimitar, which is notoriously difficult to seal. So far (6 months on the TR, 2 months on the Scim) it's working well.

Nigel

[warrenk]

Hi Nigel

I also have a misting of oil on the pushrod side of the engine and after reading your post keen to use Reinzosil looking through their sales which one have you used.

Thanks

Keith

[Pete Lewis]

the push rod side is pretty unsupported and seapage is common  a re torque might help . nothing to loose as a try it first 

Pete

 

[Nigel Clark]

3 hours ago, warrenk said:

Hi Nigel

I also have a misting of oil on the pushrod side of the engine and after reading your post keen to use Reinzosil looking through their sales which one have you used.

Thanks

Keith

Hi Keith,

This is the sealant I used successfully on my TR6:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victor-Reinz-Reinzosil-Instant-Gasket-Silicone-Sump-Sealant-70ml-70-31414-10/303707698375?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

First, I degreased the block and cylinder head faces with cellulose thinners. Next I put a thin coating along both sides of the gasket at the front, the pushrod side and the back of the head, including around the rocker oil feed hole. Not too much of course so sealant can't restrict the oil feed hole. A little sealant was squeezed out of the joint as the head was tightened down. That was simply smoothed and neatened up to make a small external bead running along the outside of the gasket line. It's been suggested in a previous post by Marcus (GT6M), as last line of defence against leakage.

Since then, this joint has been oil tight, for the first time in more than 10 years that I've owned this car!

Nigel

PS: There's more info (a lot more info) on this subject in this thread:

 

[Nick Jones]

3 hours ago, warrenk said:

Hi Nigel

I also have a misting of oil on the pushrod side of the engine and after reading your post keen to use Reinzosil looking through their sales which one have you used.

Thanks

Keith

This stuff I think.

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-114439-victor-reinz-reinzosil-high-temperature-silicon-sealing-compound.aspx
 

I wouldn’t bother to lift a head purely to deal with a bit of sweating/misting. Mine is starting to do it again after about 5 years/ 18k in spite of the extra sealing. Only when the car has had a thrashing though. I think it’s telling me something about the breather capacity (inadequate)

 

Nick

[Clive]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

This stuff I think.

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-114439-victor-reinz-reinzosil-high-temperature-silicon-sealing-compound.aspx
 

I wouldn’t bother to lift a head purely to deal with a bit of sweating/misting. Mine is starting to do it again after about 5 years/ 18k in spite of the extra sealing. Only when the car has had a thrashing though. I think it’s telling me something about the breather capacity (inadequate)

 

Nick

Concur that it is very good stuff. Used that on a couple of engines and other parts that needed sealing. Feels different to other silicon sealants, in a good way.