Herald Starter Motor

[Monty Rustbucket]

Hi all

I recently bought one of the Hi Torque starter motors for my Herald through the club shop.

It did say in the blurb that it was a direct replacement and no mods would be required.

However, when I tried to fit it, it seems something is not quite right.

My original starter was a standard unit fitted with the factory spacer - I offered the new unit up with the spacer and it will only mesh with the flywheel ring gear on about the last 3/16 of the starter drive.

If fitted without the spacer the drive reaches too far and the raised back edge of the starter drive fouls the ring gear.

The only solution it would appear would be to have my spacer machined down but I only bought the starter as it stated it would be a straight swap.

Anyone else had this problem ??

all the best and thanks

John

[JohnD]

3/16 ain't bad - the teeth on the flywheel ring are only about 1/4" deep.

Rinmmer's sell spacer shims: https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-104549--SelectedCurrency-1?gclid=CjwKCAiA57D_BRAZEiwAZcfCxUPEnXc2ZZIlgiMey1u13_xdPwj_bBUBJhPQd0o5Cgq8mHb-dqcctxoCqcMQAvD_BwE

You might need a few, or else use one as a pattern and cut a spacer from the right thickness or alloy plate.     Buy the plate from eBay, EG: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100mm-x-100mm-or-100mm-dia-10mm-LASER-CUT-Plate-Blank/174190047289?hash=item288e893039:g:DsIAAOSwElpeRTQ0  They might even laser cut it for you!

John

[Peter Truman]

I’ve just fitted an Isuzu Trooper 2600 (Aussie Holden Rideo) type high torque starter as per Teglizer directions and had to get the starter alloy spacer cut down to approx half thickness .205inch thick. I had it done in an ex-neighbour’s machine shop he told me to pay what I thought was fair as it cost a lot as it was difficult to hold the spacer to skim it down as it was it was too thin, I gave him $50.

Like the suggestion previously it’s probably easier & cheaper to determine the thickness of spacer reqd and get it cut out of alloy plate. Too get adequate clearance I had to fit a thick steel spacer too.

Mine a Vitesse Mk2 was 19mm from front of engine plate to front of the ring gear and with the starter at rest the geared drive is 17mm with spacers fitted, appears to work starter spins with no grinding noises.

On mine the starter gear can actually spin out quite a distance how far the inertia lets it I don’t know. I was a little worried whilst I set it up to clear at stationary I did worry it would spin out too far and the rear of the starter gear would contact the starter ring so I’ll probably run it a month and remove the starter to see all’s OK with the starter gear and starter ring.

[ahebron]

16 minutes ago, Peter Truman said:

I’ve just fitted an Isuzu Trooper 2600 (Aussie Holden Rideo) type high torque starter as per Teglizer directions and had to get the starter alloy spacer cut down to approx half thickness .205inch thick. I had it done in an ex-neighbour’s machine shop he told me to pay what I thought was fair as it cost a lot as it was difficult to hold the spacer to skim it down as it was it was too thin, I gave him $50.

Like the suggestion previously it’s probably easier & cheaper to determine the thickness of spacer reqd and get it cut out of alloy plate. Too get adequate clearance I had to fit a thick steel spacer too.

Mine a Vitesse Mk2 was 19mm from front of engine plate to front of the ring gear and with the starter at rest the geared drive is 17mm with spacers fitted, appears to work starter spins with no grinding noises.

On mine the starter gear can actually spin out quite a distance how far the inertia lets it I don’t know. I was a little worried whilst I set it up to clear at stationary I did worry it would spin out too far and the rear of the starter gear would contact the starter ring so I’ll probably run it a month and remove the starter to see all’s OK with the starter gear and starter ring.

 

Thats not right.
I machined mine down myself and either used my Southbend 9 lathe or my mill/drill. I am no machinist but iirc it wasnt that hard to do. Mind you I did have as long as it took to do the job so if I looked at it as a paying job I might have thought differrently.

How are you finding the starter, when I first used  mine I thought I had lost compression it was that fast.

 

Adrian

[Peter Truman]

The machinists comment was the alloy spacer being thin it was difficult to hold and kept coming loose causing issues with an uneven/ constant thickness ie took a lot of hands on supervision!

Knowing the issues now I'll get another and do the daughters Spit, what I really must do is the Dolly Sprint but must research what Hi Torpoe starter to use as the specific ones designed for the Sprint are around $500 vs around $130 for the Spit/Vitesse.

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

On mine the starter gear can actually spin out quite a distance how far the inertia lets it I don’t know. I was a little worried whilst I set it up to clear at stationary I did worry it would spin out too far and the rear of the starter gear would contact the starter ring so I’ll probably run it a month and remove the starter to see all’s OK with the starter gear and starter ring.

Peter,

Pedantry, I know, but a HiTorque doesn't use inertia to engage the pinion with the ring.     It's a "pre-engaged" device, with its own solenoid that throws the pinion at the ring, and doesn't start the motor until it is engaged.

JOhn

[Peter Truman]

John thanks for the op explanation, always wondered re the pre-engaged description, the starter gear can be pushed out a significant distance so in reality did I need to have the alloy spacer reduced in thickness, having the starter set back might not have been a problem, any thoughts from the members?

So no need to remove the starter in a month and check meshing, good I don't have to bugger around with the gearbox cover again, removing it made it easier to fit and tighten the starter mounting bolts single handed

[Colin Lindsay]

These are two pics I took many moons ago when rebuilding the GT6 engine, in order to determine if I needed a spacer or not. In both cases no spacer was needed; you can see how close the original starter Bendix is to the flywheel so any kind of spacer between the starter motor and the backplate will only pull it closer in (as it moves backwards towards the motor when engaged), whilst the uprated starter is quite far away and so has to extend further forwards away from the motor to engage, which any kind of spacer would only worsen - it's just bolted to the engine using the original adaptor plate. I suspect that flywheel was changed for one that sat closer to the block and so did not snag the starter gears. (Long-running problem with the gearbox input shaft so possibly the crank was swapped; in any case the flywheel moved further in)

 

[JohnD]

Nice pics, Colin - they make the situation vey clear.

But that's a six cylinder, when the four has the starter on the other side.

And you mounted the HiTorque upside down!

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I suspect that flywheel was changed for one that sat closer to the block and so did not snag the starter gears. (Long-running problem with the gearbox input shaft so possibly the crank was swapped;

The photos are definitely not the original position of the flywheel - I'd guess it's a GT6 flywheel on a 2000 saloon long-back crank, as discussed elsewhere.

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

And you mounted the HiTorque upside down!

Had to, it doesn't clear the steering column otherwise! anyway it shouldn't matter between engines, the theory is the same - standard starter pulls back, hi-torq starters push forward no matter which side they're on. 

50 minutes ago, NonMember said:

The photos are definitely not the original position of the flywheel - I'd guess it's a GT6 flywheel on a 2000 saloon long-back crank, as discussed elsewhere.

Yep, that was the same problem... sorted by a different crank. Even so it gives some idea of where the starter gear sits in relation to the backplate, with no spacer.

[Peter Truman]

Colin my starter is fitted the other way round ie connections on the bottom but toward the block there was adequate clearance to fit cable eyelet and washer/nut even with my big hand.

Re The flywheel and starter ring position on my Vitesse Mk2 is original and only has 19mm from the front face of the backplate to the front of the flywheel starter ring hence the need for a thinner (5.2mm) aluminium adapter plate, this resulted in the leading edge of the starter stationary gear being 17mm from the front of the backplate, ie 2mm clearance to the flywheel starter ring.

The half thickness aluminium adapter plate was what Teglizer advised with the cheaper Isuzu style hi torque starter, if I’d used the normal 10mm thick spacer the stationary starter gear would have been around 7mm back from the face of the starter ring. Looking at your set up It looks like it would have been about the same BUT mine would have had the full thickness  10mm aluminium spacer fitted.