Herald Horn

[Adrian Forbes-Leith]

I've recently purchased a very smart 1968 Herald 13/60 convertible and I am having a problem with the horn.It blasts when cornering and even went off the other when parked in the garage and no one was anywhere near it! It has been fitted with a wood rimmed MotoLita steering wheel and I am wondering if this has something to do with it .This is an area of the car that I have never had to deal with before ,so would be glad of any suggestions as to the cause and cure of this problem ! Adrian F-L

[Colin Lindsay]

Is the horn push as factory standard ie through the wheel centre? As long as a PO hasn't added another switch somewhere so that it differs from original, it's an earthing problem. The horn circuit is permanently live with no relay in the Heralds, so that the power comes up the steering column through the purple or purple / black wire, earths when the horn push makes contact, and goes back down the steering column to earth. If it's sounding when not pushed then there's a short, and may just be the steering wheel touching some other part of the column. Have a look at the horn push and the way it fits the steering wheel, to see if there's any obvious contact, then see how the wheel sits on the column and how close it is to the outer column tube. How ids the steering generally? Worn column bushes may allow the column to move about and so make unnecessary contact.

First thing tho is to check the wheel and see how it's connected, in case that's been altered.

[Chris A]

Hi Adrian, I see this is your first post so welcome to the forum (you have probably been spying on us anyway).

How about a couple of photos of your pride and joy? You clearly have excellent taste, mind you I can't claim to be impartial. 

[PeteH]

Just a thought, where it is currently parked is not damp?. My garage is currently showing 80+% humidity. With a close clearance it could be enough to trigger the horn with moisture?.

Pete

[Casper]

This is often in part due to worn column bushes.  give the wheel a left right wiggle to test it

C. 

[TomL]

Yes, a common problem on the cars - worn column bushes.

Tom

[NonMember]

While I don't want to disagree with anything that's been said...

Contact of the wheel with the column should not cause the horn to sound, as both the wheel and the column are earthed. The problem is contact of any part of the horn contact system, which consists of a brass ring behind the hub of the steering wheel, a sprung brass "pencil" in a plastic tube and the horn push itself. On the original wheel, the horn push pops out easily and then you can pull the pencil to check its condition. Damage to that can result in stray bits of wire making unwanted contact. If the problem is the brass ring being loose then the wheel needs to come off. Badly worn bushes can allow enough wheel movement for it to touch the ring but it needs quite a lot of movement, unless the ring is also loose or the pencil damaged. It's also possible that the purple/black wire has been rubbing and there's a gap in the insulation.

Oh, and welcome to the forum Adrian!

[Pete Lewis]

if there is no gap between the handwheel and the column cowl give the outer column a good shove it is designed to collapse on impact 

whilst i agree with Rob ive seen random hornblower when the wheel contacts the switch cowls 

you can heave the wheel upward or shove the tube downwards 

Pete

 

[Peter Truman]

We  had the same problem with the daughters Mk2 Spit, seemed worse on turning left, it took ages to find the problem, the brass ring had obviously been replaced or refitted by a PO and the lugs that locate/fix it to the steering column on the inner hole were not pushed home fully ie slightly protruding and then sometimes touching the inner steering column, hence the turning left issue. I was able to get enough leverage to push the lugs fully home and its all been OK since (shouldn't have said that)! At one point I was so frustrated that I considered fitting a separate horn push button on the dash, glad I didn't.

I also changed the steering wheel and boss to a 70's wood rimmed Mountney as the original aftermarket fitment boss wasn't the best quality & needed the plastic pencil adapting.

[Adrian Forbes-Leith]

18 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

We  had the same problem with the daughters Mk2 Spit, seemed worse on turning left, it took ages to find the problem, the brass ring had obviously been replaced or refitted by a PO and the lugs that locate/fix it to the steering column on the inner hole were not pushed home fully ie slightly protruding and then sometimes touching the inner steering column, hence the turning left issue. I was able to get enough leverage to push the lugs fully home and its all been OK since (shouldn't have said that)! At one point I was so frustrated that I considered fitting a separate horn push button on the dash, glad I didn't.

I also changed the steering wheel and boss to a 70's wood rimmed Mountney as the original aftermarket fitment boss wasn't the best quality & needed the plastic pencil adapting.

Thanks very much Peter . I'll have a look at that.

[Adrian Forbes-Leith]

23 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Is the horn push as factory standard ie through the wheel centre? As long as a PO hasn't added another switch somewhere so that it differs from original, it's an earthing problem. The horn circuit is permanently live with no relay in the Heralds, so that the power comes up the steering column through the purple or purple / black wire, earths when the horn push makes contact, and goes back down the steering column to earth. If it's sounding when not pushed then there's a short, and may just be the steering wheel touching some other part of the column. Have a look at the horn push and the way it fits the steering wheel, to see if there's any obvious contact, then see how the wheel sits on the column and how close it is to the outer column tube. How ids the steering generally? Worn column bushes may allow the column to move about and so make unnecessary contact.

First thing tho is to check the wheel and see how it's connected, in case that's been altered.

Hi  Colin Thanks for that . There doesn't appear to be any play in the steering though if I pull the steering wheel hard towards me when cornering(not a maneuver to be recommended) it does generally prevent the horn going off.

[Adrian Forbes-Leith]

21 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

if there is no gap between the handwheel and the column cowl give the outer column a good shove it is designed to collapse on impact 

whilst i agree with Rob ive seen random hornblower when the wheel contacts the switch cowls 

you can heave the wheel upward or shove the tube downwards 

Pete

 

Hi Pete Thanks for that . With all the replies I've had I've got a lot to go on! I can't believe how helpful other Triumph owners are .

[Colin Lindsay]

If it's up and down movement then it's probably the universal joint that's loose, either at the shaft side or the rack side, and this is allowing too much downwards movement at the top so that the ring is making contact with something it shouldn't; as Pete says it may be the column shrouds which I've seen happen when the column bushes are almost gone and allow the wheel to move too much from side to side. Can you pull the wheel up to break any contact, just slightly, and then tighten the steering column joint at the steering rack, to see if it will hold in place? If not then again as Pete says drop the outer tube slightly for the same effect.

[Adrian Forbes-Leith]

3 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

If it's up and down movement then it's probably the universal joint that's loose, either at the shaft side or the rack side, and this is allowing too much downwards movement at the top so that the ring is making contact with something it shouldn't; as Pete says it may be the column shrouds which I've seen happen when the column bushes are almost gone and allow the wheel to move too much from side to side. Can you pull the wheel up to break any contact, just slightly, and then tighten the steering column joint at the steering rack, to see if it will hold in place? If not then again as Pete says drop the outer tube slightly for the same effect.

I can't feel any noticeable movement when I pull the steering wheel towards me but it does stop the horn going off . 

[Adrian Forbes-Leith]

22 hours ago, NonMember said:

While I don't want to disagree with anything that's been said...

Contact of the wheel with the column should not cause the horn to sound, as both the wheel and the column are earthed. The problem is contact of any part of the horn contact system, which consists of a brass ring behind the hub of the steering wheel, a sprung brass "pencil" in a plastic tube and the horn push itself. On the original wheel, the horn push pops out easily and then you can pull the pencil to check its condition. Damage to that can result in stray bits of wire making unwanted contact. If the problem is the brass ring being loose then the wheel needs to come off. Badly worn bushes can allow enough wheel movement for it to touch the ring but it needs quite a lot of movement, unless the ring is also loose or the pencil damaged. It's also possible that the purple/black wire has been rubbing and there's a gap in the insulation.

Oh, and welcome to the forum Adrian!

Hi Rob Thanks for your reply.Should the brass pencilbe making permanent contact at either end? When I replace the horn button the brass pencil almost pushes it off again - its under a lot of pressure.

[NonMember]

22 minutes ago, Adrian Forbes-Leith said:

Hi Rob Thanks for your reply.Should the brass pencilbe making permanent contact at either end? When I replace the horn button the brass pencil almost pushes it off again - its under a lot of pressure.

Yes, the brass pencil forms a permanent connection from the horn push to the circuit, the switch is internal to the push. It's not uncommon for the push to become loose in the hub, and may need some tweaks to help it stick. There will be brass pokey-out bits that are supposed to grip the inside of the hub.

That said, you mentioned it's a Mota-lita wheel, so it's not quite like the original, although the principles are all the same. I think the bits that hold the push into the hub are cruder on the after-market ones.

[johny]

45 minutes ago, NonMember said:

Yes, the brass pencil forms a permanent connection from the horn push to the circuit, the switch is internal to the push. It's not uncommon for the push to become loose in the hub, and may need some tweaks to help it stick. There will be brass pokey-out bits that are supposed to grip the inside of the hub.

That said, you mentioned it's a Mota-lita wheel, so it's not quite like the original, although the principles are all the same. I think the bits that hold the push into the hub are cruder on the after-market ones.

Those pokey-out bits are also the earth connection for the circuit so the more they bite the steering wheel the better....

[Pete Lewis]

1 hour ago, Adrian Forbes-Leith said:

t does stop the horn going off . 

the inner column and outer tube are gripped but not physically bolted so yes the should move needs a good effort 

they are despite the age of the car designed to collapse under impact body weight against the wheel , 

you need to be a bit more gorilla hands to make it move 

there is a simple but special slip joint on the inner shaft just below the end of the tube 

dont undo this without reading the manual , you cant wreck anything but needs a little care setting the 'grip' grubscrew 

it may have been done up excessively over tight 

the tube is held by felt and springy clips inside support clamps  , its not bolted , give it a good wiggle and push downward

in total there is about 4" of  in /out adjustment to suit tall / short drivers 

Pete

[Adrian Forbes-Leith]

On 17/01/2021 at 17:14, Chris A said:

Hi Adrian, I see this is your first post so welcome to the forum (you have probably been spying on us anyway).

How about a couple of photos of your pride and joy? You clearly have excellent taste, mind you I can't claim to be impartial. 

Hi Chris I've put a couple of pics on my profile . Not being very tech savvy is there anywhere else I should put them?

[Colin Lindsay]

Ooooohhhhh very nice!!

Just had a sneak peek and that's tasty. If you want to put one in this thread just click on 'choose files' or drag it to your latest post, it'll upload.

[Chris A]

Nice! Put them on the thread.

All you need now is the weather to get out there and drive it

[dougbgt6]

Adrian,

Nice car! Good to see the luggage rack on the right way round. Some have the raised bit at the back to stop the suitcase falling off, but it should be like yours with the raised bit at the front to stop the suitcase flying forward and taking your head off! 

I had the horn issue on my GT6 turned out I have a peculiar slip ring with vertical bits that seem to serve no purpose. They got splayed out and earthed on the sides of the column.  I've never seen it on another Triumph so it's probably not that! 

Doug

[poppyman]

Hi Adrian, very nice looking car. Here's hoping for an end to lockdown and a nice summer  

Tony.