Fox and headgasket ....

[wimpus]

Hi.

 

6 Months ago fitted another head, headgasket, pistons etc after 305.000km and 42 years old.

 

Now after 10.000kms the headgasket went, coolant getting out of the rad, day after white smoke out of the rear.

 

Head is getting a light skim as not fully flat.

 

Now I was cleaning the block and found out the cam followers are again pitted.

Looked at the cam.. also pitted 😕

 

[Nigel Clark]

That's disappointing.

Did you fit a new camshaft and followers when the engine was rebuilt 10,000 km ago? And was any new cam ground from a new blank or a regrind on an old worn cam?

Nigel

[Pete Lewis]

looking at the way the fire ring has given out i suspect a loss of torque on the head studs 

the head has been ' panting'  looses grip on the rings 

answer Nigels lead and that will  help with  the cam/follower  wear

Pete

[Sparky_Spit]

Hi Wim - I had similar problems with the gasket fire rings burning through just where the meet the blind jigging holes near cylinders 1 and 4.  I suspect that the resulting lack of support for the gasket material behind the fire ring creates a weak spot. I filled mine with brass plugs, epoxied into place.  See Advice please - gasket fire ring failure on new engine - Engine and Ancillary talk - Sideways Technologies (sideways-technologies.co.uk)  

Mike

[wimpus]

1 hour ago, Sparky_Spit said:

Hi Wim - I had similar problems with the gasket fire rings burning through just where the meet the blind jigging holes near cylinders 1 and 4.  I suspect that the resulting lack of support for the gasket material behind the fire ring creates a weak spot. I filled mine with brass plugs, epoxied into place.  See Advice please - gasket fire ring failure on new engine - Engine and Ancillary talk - Sideways Technologies (sideways-technologies.co.uk)  

Mike

That looks like a nice mod !

Teacher that helped me came to look and was a bit shocked that made it so weak.. 

 

Will have a look, maybe we can knock up something up like you did.

 

Thanks Sparky !

[wimpus]

On 17/01/2021 at 19:31, Nigel Clark said:

That's disappointing.

Did you fit a new camshaft and followers when the engine was rebuilt 10,000 km ago? And was any new cam ground from a new blank or a regrind on an old worn cam?

Nigel

Camshaft was original (315.000kms)

 

Followers where renewed, but seems we didnt look at the camshaft very well..

[thescrapman]

Wim, get yourself a Mk3 grind cam if buying a new one.

 

[wimpus]

7 hours ago, thescrapman said:

Wim, get yourself a Mk3 grind cam if buying a new one.

 

Would have liked that.

But cant get one thanks to brexit.

Income tax is more then the parts.

 

And time..

[Pete Lewis]

pitty but its not a good idea to mix old and new cam components   stick with what you have or all new follower and new cam 

dont mix old with new   as one will wreck the other  there are a good few Tee shirts for this out there 

its an economical corner cut that ..........doesnt 

Pete

[wimpus]

51 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

pitty but its not a good idea to mix old and new cam components   stick with what you have or all new follower and new cam 

dont mix old with new   as one will wreck the other  there are a good few Tee shirts for this out there 

its an economical corner cut that ..........doesnt 

Pete

Now getting a new standard cam + followers.

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

pitty but its not a good idea to mix old and new cam components   

I have the intention of using the original cam in the current 1200 rebuild but the cam followers are all in a box, in no particular order... I might have marked the base with indelible marker but not sure... oops.

[Pete Lewis]

well years ago i had a rattley   78 Talbot Alpine , typical Simca clatter  , cam was like bird siht on a shaft  followers well concaved 

managed to win a cam from the factory but not followers, and they cost a lot so with pillar drill and wet /dry spun them to a flat finish

sold the car it lasted 100k since and stayed quiet , tappet adjusters were a bit on the limit but ...it worked  till tin worm caught up 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

Have got boxes of new ones, plus a few spare cams... so will just use plenty of oil at the start and keep my fingers crossed.

[poppyman]

10 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

well years ago i had a rattley   78 Talbot Alpine , typical Simca clatter  , cam was like bird siht on a shaft  followers well concaved 

managed to win a cam from the factory but not followers, and they cost a lot so with pillar drill and wet /dry spun them to a flat finish

sold the car it lasted 100k since and stayed quiet , tappet adjusters were a bit on the limit but ...it worked  till tin worm caught up 

Pete

I don't believe you Pete..... A quiet Talbot Alpine.... Rubbish   They were a nice comfy car though.

Tony.

[Pete Lewis]

you have to believe ,   i kept quiet about what i had done , it went well and towed a caravan for some years 

i only had it to pass it on as just taken a 1600 Solara  as a management  car  loved it , the coventry engines didnt clatter 

as  in house we redesigned the follower /cam relationship

Pete

[poppyman]

It didn't help matters that most people could not be bothered to set the tappets on a service.

Tony.

[wimpus]

15 hours ago, Sparky_Spit said:

Hi Wim - I had similar problems with the gasket fire rings burning through just where the meet the blind jigging holes near cylinders 1 and 4.  I suspect that the resulting lack of support for the gasket material behind the fire ring creates a weak spot. I filled mine with brass plugs, epoxied into place.  See Advice please - gasket fire ring failure on new engine - Engine and Ancillary talk - Sideways Technologies (sideways-technologies.co.uk)  

Mike

Mike, also found out a bronze valve guide can be fitted to (cut down ) 

Valve guide is 12.70mm

Hole in block 12.50mm

[Pete Lewis]

there has been over the years a number of engines with supposed upgraded bronze valve guides that ended up with an early valve seizure

so do serious homework before going down this idea ,

same as fitting oil seals to the guides  ends up with a stuck valve as lacking designed lubrication 

just be careful before you make more problems 

Pete

[PeteH]

3 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

bronze valve guides that ended up with an early valve seizure

No experience of them except in Motorcycle Alloy heads many moons ago, But I would expect the static/cold clearances would need to be slightly greater than the C-I ones? to cope with differential in expansion. ?

Pete

[wimpus]

10 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

there has been over the years a number of engines with supposed upgraded bronze valve guides that ended up with an early valve seizure

so do serious homework before going down this idea ,

same as fitting oil seals to the guides  ends up with a stuck valve as lacking designed lubrication 

just be careful before you make more problems 

Pete

Im not fitting bronze valve guides.. 

 

Its for another thing on the engine.

Look at the link of Mike/ Sparky spit!

[PeteH]

HI.

Having looked now at the other post, I can see where the issue lies. There is little or no support for the Gasket at that point, and the seal is relying entirely upon the Torque spread sealing the fire ring. Any, even minor, distortion in the Head/Block interface will show up the weakness. I can see now why the other poster filled them.

As they are "allegedly" just blind holes to assist the O-E machining process, why have the hole punched into the gasket anyway, IMV it only weakens the gasket?. Does anyone do a Head gasket without the holes.?

My interest comes from the fact that in order to investigate a low compression Pressure on the 13/60 Engine, I am going to have the head off and it will be interesting to see if the same holes and gasket arrangement apply there also?.

Pete

 

[thescrapman]

On 19/01/2021 at 05:45, wimpus said:

Would have liked that.

But cant get one thanks to brexit.

Income tax is more then the parts.

 

And time..

I guess they were more concerned about fish than Triumph spares when they negotiated the deal.

I am surprised no European supplier does them though.

Hopefully you can quickly engineer the modification for the void, should stop the gasket failing again.

[PeteH]

12 minutes ago, thescrapman said:

Income tax is more then the parts. (Quote from another post)

A Not uncomon happening.  And nothing to do with Brexit either (my View) Import duties are levied for many items. And always where. I had to have an Alternator shipped from Belgium to France, where I was "grounded" when the one on my R-V (American Camper) failed big time. The freight and Tax (pre Brexit 2006) was in excess of the cost of the item!. Getting "stuff" from the USA was always a case of "Double the US cost" by time it landed on the driveway!. The same applied too on many items stocked throughout the EU. VAT rates accross Europe varied by Country. At one time the UK rate was well below the rate(s) in many EU countries. Going forward, I can see once the "teething issues" are ironed out that very little will have altered in real terms.

Pete

[Chris A]

18 minutes ago, PeteH said:

A Not uncomon happening.  And nothing to do with Brexit either (my View) Import duties are levied for many items. And always where. I had to have an Alternator shipped from Belgium to France, where I was "grounded" when the one on my R-V (American Camper) failed big time. The freight and Tax (pre Brexit 2006) was in excess of the cost of the item!. Getting "stuff" from the USA was always a case of "Double the US cost" by time it landed on the driveway!. The same applied too on many items stocked throughout the EU. VAT rates accross Europe varied by Country. At one time the UK rate was well below the rate(s) in many EU countries. Going forward, I can see once the "teething issues" are ironed out that very little will have altered in real terms.

Pete

Buying goods within the EU in one country for delivery in another EU country shouldn't have caused extra taxes. You should have paid the VAT in the exporting country and no more on arrival. The paperwork might well have shown a price Ex Vat, the VAT and then postage. Before the UK pulled out I bought lots of my spares from Britain, paid the price including UK VAT, postage nothing else. It will be interesting to see what happens now. Rimmers did send out a mailing to confirm that they will continue to ship to the EU. Prices will be ex Vat and any VAT/import taxes should be paid to whoever delivers the parcel. "A suivre" . . . .

[johny]

The VAT part seems clear enough but I cant understand how the import tax on items going between UK and Europe is going to be worked out and at what stage. My take on it is that if it has been wholly made in the UK or EU then theres nothing more to pay (Brexit agreement) but if part of it has been brought in from outside then someone has to calculate the import tax that generates. I think this will be highly complicated and probably just be a tax on the value of the complete item which the customer wont know until it arrives!