Herald convertible hood pivot bolt

[Colin Lindsay]

i'm still working on the convertible rear tub and have noticed that on each side by the b-post where the hood fits, there is a single shouldered bolt inside a small rectangular bracket. As is becoming typical, one has been cut through. From the look of it I'm assuming that this bolt is placed inside the bracket which is then welded to the body, so cannot simply be pushed out and another pushed in; they both move about to a certain extent but may be originally welded to the bracket after insertion - I don't know which. I've no part number or other details; does anyone know the spec of this bolt, part number or availability?

  

They're available for Stags and look the same, and also for E-type Jags so if I can get the part number or dimensions I may be able to find two:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322525172386?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-153316-527457-8&mkcid=2&itemid=322525172386&targetid=4585375810146220&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=398826042&mkgroupid=1308419096949548&rlsatarget=pla-4585375810146220&abcId=9300500&merchantid=87779&msclkid=b676c761069a17d50860a722b203b690

[martyn wright]

Hi Pete!  I looked into this last year, thinking I was missing the bolt?  I was unable to find a code No for the said bolt!  I thought it was the pivot bolt on the 13/60 Hood Diagram(Pt No41)- Canley Classics! but found that it was not in the end?  You might have to drill it out and as you said "Weld one in"?  

[martyn wright]

Just now, martyn wright said:

Hi Colin   I looked into this last year, thinking I was missing the bolt?  I was unable to find a code No for the said bolt!  I thought it was the pivot bolt on the 13/60 Hood Diagram(Pt No41)- Canley Classics! but found that it was not in the end?  You might have to drill it out and as you said "Weld one in"?  

 

[Colin Lindsay]

I might have to, Martyn. Obviously one is unusable as is, so I might as well replace both. I think that bracket will have to be carefully cut off then rewelded again; there's another bolt screws into that too. 

The pivot bolts seem to be available for Stags, TRs and possibly Spitfires; all I need is the size and I can source one - but, as you say, it's not in any of the parts manuals that I've checked so far. 

[Pete Lewis]

the old parts list shows the shoulder bolt bracket attached to an addition mounting bracket but cant break the numbers 

as a solution why not replace with a bolt of the shoulder diameter , use a nylock nut and washer , but leave it loose enough to pivot 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

If I can find the dimensions (before cutting the old ones out) it may be replaceable with a suitably modified shoulder bolt, like a caliper mounting bolt or the like. I just need to find out the size, if I can't find an original then I'll look at alternatives.

 

I can find nothing on the Net, not even a diagram for a part number, and am getting seriously p****d off with some of the results. Americans... what we call a hood is a bonnet, what we call a frame is a chassis so every search for Triumph Herald convertible hood frame pivot bolt gives fifty million results and NOTHING to do with Heralds. Any website that has ever used any of those words comes up, including some that have no relevance at all. What on earth has THIS got to do with my search?

 

[PeteH]

Might I suggest?. You could struggle with replacing the bolt. Solution?, Might be to put a short length of Stud through into a Nut and weld the whole solid. If you need a shoulder, a piece of light tubing might suffice?. (thinking laterally here).

I have access to a lathe so shoulderd studs would be possible. Though probably only in metric. I "lost" my A-F taps and dies some years ago, borrowed and not returned.

Pete

EDIT:- It takes "rear stick assembly" (Canley Item 50 convertible hood, https://www.canleyclassics.com/?catalogue=triumph-herald-13/60&diagram=triumph-herald-13/60-convertible-hood) On My 13/60, Hole in the frame is 3/8" shoulder is 3/8" and aprox 3/16wide. overall the stud is 5/8" long (Plus the head) the O/D of the thread is 5/16 (24TPI?) which equates to 1/2 AF spanner size?

Pete

[Pete Lewis]

there are a few shoulder bolts in the  hood frame parts list but none for the bit you have

those being 609243   704393  609244   610564  609242

but none stocked anywhere i can find   nuts all appear to be 5/16 unf for all the fittings  

Pete

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

кто-нибудь здесь говорит по-русски? I haven't since my Uni days.

It's strange but when I search for 'Triumph 609243' or 'Triumph 609244' I get redirected to this Russian site, which appears to be selling M36 shoulder bolts - wonder what the link is?

https://krepzevs.com/p31157382-bolt-m36-vysokoprochnyj.html

Now in some strange fashion that has led me to a Triumph 13/60 parts catalogue, which lists the bolt as BB38. It's also listed as part BB25 in the same frame; of which I might even have a complete version. All I need now is a cross-reference of part numbers / catalogue numbers and sizes in the real world, but if I can get one free from the hood frame assembly the in-laws will confirm the dimensions.

I'll enjoy the challenge of searching for a while longer but tomorrow I'll get the frame, find the corresponding hole in the frame bracket, and see what size fits that, and maybe work backwards. 

 

[PeteH]

This looks like the section?. The curved hood rail on the left, mounts to the shouldered bolt welded in the bracket. Took me ages to work it out, I wanted to dry fit the hood frame to make sure it did not foul the Belt reels when it was stowed. There is no part number shown for that fastener as far as I can see?.

Pete

 

[Pete Lewis]

my 64 parts list shows the same but no ref to any part numbers for the sub assembled bracket 

time to leave Colin to the Russians   ha!!     was it a long shot !!!!

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

Part number 38 and 25 appear to be the same, being 609243, and might even be the same as 41 which is 609244. Part number 49 is 609242. All I need is the size - if I can get one later and measure it, we may be able to either match it or find the closest metric equivalent. The passenger side one is perfect but rusty, so if all else fails I'll grind off the bracket, remove the bolt and then get the dimensions, unless I can measure it in situ. I've just worked out from that diagram, that it's actually THIS one:

...and the funny thing is that it doesn't appear to attach to anything? The hood brackets are all on the other side and there's nothing to this at all? SO: strange, but I might not actually need a replacement bolt at all. Until of course I find out the hard way. I removed the hood from this car many years ago and also have an almost brand new frame, but if I'm correct then the hood brackets just bolt to the tub with normal bolts. I've had a quick shufti at the spares pile and there's no part of the hood frame assembly that needs to attach to this captive bolt. So what on earth is it for? Hardtop?

As Pete H says I can probably make one up, (using a stud, perhaps) that will screw in from the front and save a lot of faffing about.

 

 

[PeteH]

 

 

 

Hi. Been back inthe garage earlier today and had another look, and some pic`s. The rear two sections form up like the old fashioned perambulator hood and they bolt independently to the said bolt.

Hope this helps

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

Thanks Pete, so I do need one. If I can't find an original then the concept of a nut and stud / bolt assembly sounds good. There's bound to be an engine stud of the same diameter (takes a 1/2 inch nut) with a suitably small collar.

[PeteH]

Your welcome, Went back in the garage after lunch, and the section in question had slipped from it`s suspended "perch", damn near took an eye out. So while I was contemplating it`s re-arangement back in the roof of the garage. I put it in place for the "photo shoot".

Thinking laterally, I supect the bracket is Spot welded?. might you be able to drill out the spots, replace the bolt/stud and plug weld back in place?. even fabricate a new bracket?.

The whole hood arangement is a weird afair. When I`ve finished out in the yard, fencing and Patio Cover building, my next move is replacing the wiring loom.

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

Tub has gone off to the sandblaster, so I managed a few measurements before it went. The bolt is one inch long, the shoulder is half the length so exactly half an inch, and the nut is one that takes a 1/2 inch spanner. Any of the studs I have are either too big or too small. The shoulder is the interesting bit; it's half an inch (as far as I can determine with a tape measure, having dumped my cheap calipers) and is a snug fit in the hood frame, but if I try unshouldered bolts, they're either too loose or too tight. (If the nut takes a 1/2 inch spanner what does that make the bolt size / diameter?)

I can enlarge the hole on the hood frame to take the bigger stud but that's no challenge. If I can identify a proper shoulder bolt - fits my sense of OCD neatness - I'll grind out one side of the bracket, bend it out enough to replace the bolt then weld the bit that's been prised out. Just need to find the equivalent of that bolt.

 

[NonMember]

26 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

(If the nut takes a 1/2 inch spanner what does that make the bolt size / diameter?

Usually 5/16" UNF (or UNC but it doesn't look UNC in the photo)

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, NonMember said:

Usually 5/16" UNF (or UNC but it doesn't look UNC in the photo)

Thanks Rob; it takes a UNF nut so I'm assuming that's what it is. I can find plenty of similar-looking items online, but no-one will post the total dimensions ie 1 inch long, half inch shoulder and 5/16 thread... am I just being lazy?

These may be as close as I've found so far, at 7/8" or 15/16"... but I just need to confirm that while the thread is 5/16 the shoulder is 1/2 inch.

https://www.rays-teksurplus.co.uk/5-x-516-bsf-hex-head-shoulder-bolts-length-1516-part-sl5090-4gr1-p14-17144-p.asp

https://www.rays-teksurplus.co.uk/5-x-516-unf-bolts-hex-head-shouldered-steel-length-78-part-vgs7005-40-r6-17163-p.asp

This is the sort of proportion I need, below; those linked above do not have a wide enough shoulder. Of course I could always sleeve a thinner bolt but I'll search for another while first.

 

[Pete Lewis]

as i said  earlier  all hood nuts on the variety of shoulder bolts used are listed as 5/16UNF

originality   or a sound repair    ???

i would get the size of the frame hole and use  a bolt of that diameter , just dont fully tighten its nut 

saves all the hassle  

Pete

[PeteH]

On 07/03/2021 at 15:28, PeteH said:

On My 13/60, Hole in the frame is 3/8" shoulder is 3/8" and aprox 3/16wide. overall the stud is 5/8" long (Plus the head) the O/D of the thread is 5/16 (24TPI?) which equates to 1/2 AF spanner size?

I used a Vernier caliper, for the above dimensions.

Pete.

[Colin Lindsay]

4 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

i would get the size of the frame hole and use  a bolt of that diameter , just dont fully tighten its nut 

saves all the hassle  

Pete

That's no fun, Pete! Simple and easy, but only when all other angles are covered. I'm already measuring up various old suspension bolts and if I can find a suitable one I'll either cut it down or if needs be get the In-Laws to thread it right down to a half-inch collar. The frame hole appears to be half inch but any bolt of that size that I try sticks and won't go in whereas the shoulder / pivot bolt goes in first time. Rear diff and cylinder head studs are the same, and they may lend themselves to cutting and having a nut welded on, so that maybe the way forward. However: it's the detective work that appeals. Anyone got a Stag - the bolts for that hood are readily available but I suspect a different size.

[NonMember]

11 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

The frame hole appears to be half inch but any bolt of that size that I try sticks and won't go in whereas the shoulder / pivot bolt goes in first time.

I'd be very surprised if a bolt with a 5/16" thread had a 1/2" shoulder, as that's the same size as the nut. It's more likely 7/16" or possibly 15/32"

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, NonMember said:

I'd be very surprised if a bolt with a 5/16" thread had a 1/2" shoulder, as that's the same size as the nut. It's more likely 7/16" or possibly 15/32"

Never thought of that - makes perfect sense! I'll be at the In-Laws' later today and will get it professionally measured. Both the nut and the head of the bolt take a 1/2 inch spanner.

Must buy new calipers. My cheapie Chinese set measured it at about four feet and so went in the bin.

[Pete Lewis]

aldi digi verniers £8 on sale this past week

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

We ain't got no Aldi... local LIDL are selling 'Oil filter and battery testers' according the the price label. I never realised the oil filter used power.

Thankfully the actual box reads: 'alternator and battery tester'.

However: easiest way seemed to be to use spanners; I have plenty of them and after all a 1/4 inch nut is the same diameter as a 1/4 inch bolt, so:

Pivot bolt is one inch long from end to end and the shoulder extends to halfway of that.

The head is 1/2 inch, the shoulder fits a 3/8 spanner snugly, and the threads fit a 5/16 spanner whilst taking another 1/2 inch nut.

Aren't some of the engine studs 3/8?