Vitesse engine sludge

[daverclasper]

Hi. Changed engine oil yesterday. After draining, there was a firmish, crescent shaped piece of sludge left hanging out of the drain hole (sorry if this sums up images of me on the loo). This was about 2 cm between the ends. Like a dark grey metal paste when rubbed between fingers.

Magnet on plug, had a bit of the same around it, as is usual.

Oil changes yearly, had the car 8 years.

A bit intrigued as to where it has come from?. No big deal I guess?.

Cheers, Dave

[Pete Lewis]

probably a build up over the years and its just dropped off  the only crescent shapes are the crank thrust washers notorious of falling out whenthey wear out 

but they dont turn to paste   dropped ones remain as metal 

have you put some senokot in the sump  Ha !

Pete

[avivalasvegas]

I have direct experience with engine sludge. It's not as easy to deal with. After much research, I found Auto-rx. It has earned a strong reputation for gently removing sludge during normal driving.

I've used it in 5 of my vehicles to date with excellent results. I'm talking shiny internals and measurable increases in compression and fuel economy. It's the first thing I add to any vehicle I purchase and is currently running in my GT6. 

It has no solvents and only requires that you follow instructions precisely and use a quality oil filter and a non-synthetic engine oil like Valvoline VR1. 

 

[Clive]

I always worry about sludge removers, but if it works gently, it has potential.

Best thing is to drop the sump off the car, and give it a clean. Then use a decent synthetic oil that wont sludge up in future. But then again, many people have a hissy fit when you mention synthetic oils in old cars.

 

[PeteH]

30 minutes ago, clive said:

when you mention synthetic oils in old cars.

I suspect that, part of the "reasoning" has to do with a perception that Synthetics are marketed AT newer vehicles?. There is also a school of thought that believes the Oil (types) available when "our" cars where introduced are the best option. Manufacturing tolerances too are closer in "moderns" as well as more consistant. Bottom line is that regardless of "what" maintaining the oil film under operating conditions on moving surafaces is the object. Eg; when was the last time anyone did a "De-Coke" on a modern car?. Yet, it was regarded as "normal", and featured in many "handbooks" back in the 50`s and 60`s.

[Clive]

14 minutes ago, PeteH said:

 

I suspect that, part of the "reasoning" has to do with a perception that Synthetics are marketed AT newer vehicles?. There is also a school of thought that believes the Oil (types) available when "our" cars where introduced are the best option. Manufacturing tolerances too are closer in "moderns" as well as more consistant. Bottom line is that regardless of "what" maintaining the oil film under operating conditions on moving surafaces is the object. Eg; when was the last time anyone did a "De-Coke" on a modern car?. Yet, it was regarded as "normal", and featured in many "handbooks" back in the 50`s and 60`s.

The tolerance thing is a red herring. You can buy synthetics with the same or higher viscosities than 20-50. Plus they will hod that viscosity to higher temperatures and for greater life.

But what people have conveniently forgotten is that initially a straight grade oil was specced. I bet many people squirmed when a multi grade was suggested. Even back then Triumph moved with the oil technology, changing the recommendation to whatever was the best available. That means if they were still producing the same engines to the same tolerances etc today, they would be specifying a fully synthetic oil. But we look back and are stuck in a timewarp, with many thinking a synthetic will cause issues (which is possible, as it may well clean all the sludge created by decades of poor maintenance and low quality oils, so a sump clean would be advisable first. And that is not the synthetics fault, it is just good at keeping the engine clean)

[Mathew]

Some engines are more prone to sludge, thinking some of the fords i have had in the past, mind you that may have had something to do with the cheaper oils i used to use!

[Pete Lewis]

the old days back in the days  the old boy down the garage would have added 1/2 gallon of paraffin and left it ti idle for a rinse out 

dont do it  

getting the sump off on the vitesse can be a bit of a faf   

Pete

[Nick Jones]

4 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

the old days back in the days  the old boy down the garage would have added 1/2 gallon of paraffin and left it ti idle for a rinse out 

dont do it  

getting the sump off on the vitesse can be a bit of a faf   

Pete

Same trick with ATF might not be so daft......

Some sludge in the bottom of an old, well-used engine is pretty much inevitable. Lots of semi-modern VAG cars have known issues with it and blockage of the oil pickup strainer...... which leads to bad things.....

Nick

[Clive]

My friend used to fill engines or gearboxes with diesel, let them idle for a while an drain. ATF is a good shout....

But sump removal is the safest way.

[Mathew]

With the cvh fords i used to clean out the rocker cover and change the oil every 6k. They still collected sludge in the rocker cover but they kept going.

[poppyman]

I'm with Clive, sump off is the best option. Some of these cleaning methods can destroy engines by removing the sh*t and gum that is holding the engine together. The grey sludge is simply worn bearing and piston deposits that fall into the sump and stay there. You wont find a trace of it on the dipstick so it proves the oil is doing its job.

Tony.

[poppyman]

Just now, Mathew said:

With the cvh fords i used to clean out the rocker cover and change the oil every 6k. They still collected sludge in the rocker cover but they kept going.

You are right Mathew those cvh engines could sludge up..... The black death we used to call it as it blocked the hydraulic tappets.

Tony.

[JohnD]

Surely, if you have a build up of sludge in the sump, you aren't doing the oil changes correctly?

Done hot, the flow of running the engine, and then draining out should carry all but a minimum of sludge out and away.    It will not 'build up'.

And oil changes need to be done more freqently.   Every 6K, yes, but every year, which ever comes sooner!

Anyway, you haven't seen engine sludge until you've seen this:

 

[Scrappy]

CLASSIC ENGINE OIL : Product Information: GOLDEN FILM 20W-50 Classic Motor Oil Description: Golden Film SAE 20W-50 Classic Motor Oil is specialist high quality, low detergent/dispersant multigrade lubricant. This oil is suitable for use in naturally aspirated four stroke petrol and diesel engines. Applications: Golden Film SAE 20W-50 Classic Motor Oil is recommended for use in veteran, classic and vintage cars, motorcycles, commercial vehicles and tractors, where engine design and tolerances prohibit the use of modern high additive level oils. Golden Film SAE 20W-50 Classic Motor Oil is a low dispersant oil and allows any solid contaminants to drop harmlessly into the sump. This is an important feature where early methods of oil filtration, such as mesh gauzes or strainers are fitted. The multigrade properties of Golden Film SAE 20W-50 provide improved cold start circulation This is what happens on older engines Dave. Alf

[Badwolf]

Golden Film.....sounds like something to do with the local oriental takeaway

[poppyman]

It's what i use BW, Morris golden film, i have used it for years without problems. I wonder if it's cheaper at the local takeaway? 

Tony. 

[Badwolf]

1 hour ago, poppyman said:

It's what i use BW, Morris golden film, i have used it for years without problems. I wonder if it's cheaper at the local takeaway? 

Tony. 

Probably not as oily and better for you??

[avivalasvegas]

Just to circle back on the Auto Rx treatment, this is an image taken today when my valve cover was removed. Compression test results below.

Please bear in mind that I’ve only completed half of the treatment so far. The rinse over the next 3K miles will raise compression further and engine internals will be shiny. This has consistently been my experience with 5 previous vehicles, Classic and modern.

compression test here yielded:

1. 142
2. 140
3. 135
4. 140
5. 135
6. 137

[Colin Lindsay]

On 23/04/2021 at 08:49, Mathew said:

With the cvh fords i used to clean out the rocker cover and change the oil every 6k. They still collected sludge in the rocker cover but they kept going.

The oil filler cap always used to be full of mayonnaise / toffee-like stuff. They could have bottled it and sold it, no doubt.

[Peaks]

While I haven't had a hissy fit when thinking about synthetic oils in my Triumph, as I only do 2 - 3k miles a year it makes financial sense to use mineral oils. If the use of synthetic means that oil changes could be moved out to bi- annual though, that would obviously change the outcome of the investment appraisal! 

Using mineral oils though, I do make sure that I use a good quality filter (there is so much rubbish out there, but that's a whole new thread.....) and the oil has sufficient ZDDP levels. 

Not very scientific,  but over 60k miles or so I haven't experienced a build up of sludge so I reckon sludge build up is more to to with regular oil changes rather than mineral/synthetic use. 

 

[Clive]

I think the sludge/mayo type issues are down to poor breathers, possibly the oil not getting hot enough to boil off moisture? Or teh rocker box getting cooled and causing any water vapour to condense. 

So mineral or synthetic won't make any difference. Synthetic has advantages when the oil is worked hard, it doesn't break down like mineral oils. 

But for most, ordinary classic type oil is perfectly adequate. A friend has run his spitfire for well over 100K (in his ownership) on straight 30 oil, meant fr=or modern nissan forklifts I think. His herald has done at least twice that mileage with him. Puffs a little smoke now....but still used everyday.

[Pete Lewis]

back in the 70's there we had trials of a baffle to deflect the cooling air stream and lagging/double skinned rocker cover to help insulate the heat and stop the mayo forming on cold 

/cooled surfaces 

if yo use a alloy cover it takes on more engine heat and doesnt generate mayo from condensing moisture 

short runs will always make more than decent long runs 

Pete