Viewing thoughts - lend me your eyes (TR4)

[mfidler]

Hello chaps,

I'm going to view this car today:

1964 Triumph TR4

I called the seller yesterday to arrange to view as it's only half an hour away from me at most. I've been hunting for a TR4 or GT6 Mk2 for about 5 months or so (TR4s are looking more promising as the GT6s are rarer than that which rocking horses expel from themselves!), with a preference for an early TR4 with a Surrey top.

Everything checked out during the initial call which I kept a little on the brief side due to poor GSM reception, but I managed to confirm the car had OD, and was solid enough (although personal inspection will confirm). The seller seemed to readily admit the poorer points of the car (rear chrome), and even alluded to some issues with the interior not visible in the photos. Additionally he was willing and confident to have the car MOTd and let me have a look at the underneath of the car on ramps at a local garage should I be happy to progress from the first viewing.

Some points that I'll be looking into today:

- OS front wheel arch seems to have a slight crease in it inside the engine bay (will photograph).

- Panel gaps on the boot seem to be off (will photograph chassis alignment at rear, door on each side)

- Slight orange peel on paintwork (see rear wing)

- The carbs are missing the little hoses that go into the air filter from the rocker cover (usually the hose is connected to a run-off tank but I can't see it in the photos?)

- Seems to be a bit of rust on the bottom of the sills, I'm hoping this is just on the surface where the paint has chipped due to little stones flying up off the road and is just a Hammerite-and-masking-tape job (I'll be giving them a good poke with a nylon prodder)

Any further advice or points that I haven't detected would be much appreciated - especially before midday when I go and view.

I'll upload all my photos for the experienced eyes here to peruse over.

Michael

[Pete Lewis]

cant say about the body but as its on strombergs they dont have a breather inlet like the SUs would have used 

pete

[mfidler]

Just now, Pete Lewis said:

cant say about the body but as its on strombergs they dont have a breather inlet like the SUs would have used 

pete

Thanks Pete - My ability to tell the difference between Strombergs and SUs has never been very good!

[RogerH]

Hi Michael,

the TR4 is quite good rust wise compared to the 4A. The simple chassis is less prone to rust but you still need to check it out - big hammer and plenty of knocking.

The sills can and do go rusty. They are easy enough to repair yourself if ever need changing/repairing (assuming you are able to) The areas behind the front and rear wings can have serious. The bottoms of the front and rear wings are also prone to serious rust. Don;t use Hammerite.

Check under the carpets for floor rust.

Any swollen seams will be caused by rust 

If there are no wheel arch liners then check up inside all the wings. If you buy the car then install the liners

The steering column rubber UJ bolts have not been wire locked

The battery clamp attachment bolts are too long

Check the bottom edge of the boot lid. If you feel any roughness then this is the start of serious rust. If there is no rust look about 4" above the bottom lip for a lap joint suggesting that it has been repaired.

Otherwise looks a nice clean car.

 

Roger

[mfidler]

Thanks Roger,

I've printed out your checklist and put it on my clipboard with the rest of my check points.

I'll let you know how I get on with them this evening.

Michael

[Badwolf]

Good luck Michael. You have asked the right questions at the right time in the right place

[mfidler]

Just come back from the viewing - caught in traffic on the way back so I need to go out and do some exercise before I write a full summary of the viewing, but in the meantime enjoy some photos.

Reading back through I forgot to check under the carpets. It's been a bit of an information overload so far - at least Mr Magnet found no sins in the bodywork which is attractive (thank you!).

[Colin Lindsay]

That bootlid fit is very odd; no room to adjust it back at the top but sits out very far at the bottom. Maybe just the wrong rubber seal used?

[mfidler]

Some more photos - I'm knackered right now but the rust pinhole in the drivers side door is disturbing me (first picture).

[poppyman]

I'm sure BFG will be on soon as he has recently bought "Katie" Same colour as well.

Tony.

[AndyTV8]

I think this comes down to what kind of car you want and, if this is the sort you are after, how much is it worth.

from the photographs I’d say there is certainly some future work needed to the doors and the boot lid. Those odd gaps could also mean things are a little awry with the chassis. It could be the camera angle, but was the boot floor ok?

It would have left the factory with rocker cover pipework/valve to the air filters as you mentioned originally. If it doesn’t have a crankcase vent like the early cars then I’d expect some unvented pressure to be showing as oil leaks somewhere.

the battery tray fix probably means something more ugly underneath and I can’t figure why the bonnet/wing drain channel has been blocked.

of course, everything is fixable and could be done over time - it isn’t up for crazy money, but I’d want to be paying a fair-chunk less that the advertised price.

on the plus side, the paintwork looks respectable, it has a Backlight/hardtop/Surrey, the seller hasn’t hidden anything from you, if it runs well then there could be plenty of smiles to be had  

....... Andy 

[thescrapman]

At least one of the sills needs major surgery or replacement. 

[mfidler]

It's looking like a no then, by the sound of things...

My summary from memory for after a 90 minute viewing:

Mechanically the car is very good, OD works as expected, the engine started nicely, no thick smoke from the exhaust, no 'mayonnaise' in the engine oil, I didn't drive myself and instructed the seller to drive enthusiastically while I kept my senses focussed on how the car was driving and on the gauges, aside from a little window pane rattle, it behaved very well. A little quirk was that the thermostat for the Kenlowe fan wasn't working, so had to be switched on manually. The drive route had lots of up and down through hilly country roads which didn't reveal anything untoward. Peeping into the radiator shows a good deal of movement - the water is a bit murky though.

All the gauges worked as expected, oil pressure was good, the car had passed an MOT earlier in the morning with no advisories so I didn't bother to check the electrical functions that are tested as part of the MOT.

I had a little look at the garage floor where the car had been stored for the past five years and there was a bit of an oil patch, but nothing greater than what's to be expected with these cars (seen worse!).

The paperwork checks out, with the original green log book, the all-important receipt for the unleaded head, the seller has kept the car dry and not done much with it other than do about 500 miles a year on dry days.

I didn't have time to get under the chassis, but the photos show some surface rust, running a finger underneath the bottoms of the sills, wheel arches, front and rear of the car returns only a waxy dust and no rust - feels solid. The magnet holds onto the body in all the important places (and everywhere I slid it along). Although I didn't photograph it, the boot floor appeared quite solid, the paint cracking up a bit where it had been put on thick and pooled a bit. Around the bottom inside of the boot lid there was a bit of corrosion damage that had been repaired, although quite minor, similar to the sills, brushed away in an earlier restoration, treated and painted and certainly not active. The seller has only used the car on dry days and has not applied any waxoyl or other corrosion inhibitors during 5 years of ownership (although I couldn't find any active corrosion). The two ends of the chassis are in good alignment looking at the back of the car.

The sills do have some corrosion damage around the lips that has been brushed away and repainted in an earlier restoration as per the photos - they do seem solid though. The bonnet seems to rest on a pair of wooden chocks in the front wing drains.

The chrome is pitted on the rear bumper, front and rear over-riders, door handles and rear lights. The interior is mostly original, but the drivers seat has tears in two places.

The paintwork seemed generally OK for an older restoration, with a few blisters and chips in a several spots.

After the usual happy delirium of being around a Triumph sports car has worn off, I think based upon the tallying of what I'd need to do, coupled with the sage advice from members of this forum, this car is probably not for me. My budget is in the region of 25% higher than the asking price and I don't have quite as much time as I would like to have to bring this car up to the level that I'd want it to be. Getting the best car I can afford and waiting for the right one seems to be the name of the game here. I felt the seller was very honest with me and I owe it to him to get back with a speedy reply...

What do we think it's worth?

[mfidler]

1 hour ago, thescrapman said:

At least one of the sills needs major surgery or replacement. 

Which sill, and what are we looking for? Cosmetic?

1 hour ago, AndyTV8 said:

I think this comes down to what kind of car you want and, if this is the sort you are after, how much is it worth.

A 'sports tractor', but one with good chrome, a solid body, good panel gaps, strong mechanics, not concours (as I'd be constantly worrying about it) but very good. I'm 26 now and having owned a rather dodgy Spitfire 1500 and now got myself a garage with my foot on a solid rung of the property ladder I'm now looking for a very good car that I can fastidiously maintain, hold onto, and still be driving when I'm 76! Being in this car today was a wonderful experience and puts the TR4 now firmly ahead of the TR6 in my estimation.

[mfidler]

Just noticed a what seems to be a fuel line hanging down underneath the car in the background of the sill pictures.

[AndyTV8]

9 hours ago, mfidler said:

Just noticed a what seems to be a fuel line hanging down underneath the car in the background of the sill pictures.

I think you may be referring to the handbrake cable.

....... Andy

[AndyTV8]

9 hours ago, mfidler said:

A 'sports tractor', but one with good chrome, a solid body, good panel gaps, strong mechanics, not concours (as I'd be constantly worrying about it) but very good. I'm 26 now and having owned a rather dodgy Spitfire 1500 and now got myself a garage with my foot on a solid rung of the property ladder I'm now looking for a very good car that I can fastidiously maintain, hold onto, and still be driving when I'm 76! Being in this car today was a wonderful experience and puts the TR4 now firmly ahead of the TR6 in my estimation.

Based on your list:

the chrome looks ok in the pics ; some of the body will need work over time (doors, sills - they are technically cosmetic items, boot lid, battery tray area);  the panel gaps don’t look so good ; can’t really comment on mechanicals.

lets be honest, pretty-much any car (except something rebuilt by a perfectionist regardless of cost) will need work done - the only question is how much effort/cost and over what timeframe. 

Personally, I think it is great that you are keen on a 4, they are wonderful cars (I am of course biased!) I hope you find the car that you after - whichever you choose it will be great fun  

....... Andy 

 

[mfidler]

1 hour ago, AndyTV8 said:

I think you may be referring to the handbrake cable.

....... Andy

Oops....

1 hour ago, AndyTV8 said:

lets be honest, pretty-much any car (except something rebuilt by a perfectionist regardless of cost) will need work done - the only question is how much effort/cost and over what timeframe. 

How do we rank this one though?

[Bfg]

12 hours ago, mfidler said:

Which sill, and what are we looking for? Cosmetic?

A 'sports tractor', but one with good chrome, a solid body, good panel gaps, strong mechanics, not concours (as I'd be constantly worrying about it) but very good. I'm 26 now and having owned a rather dodgy Spitfire 1500 and now got myself a garage with my foot on a solid rung of the property ladder I'm now looking for a very good car that I can fastidiously maintain, hold onto, and still be driving when I'm 76! Being in this car today was a wonderful experience and puts the TR4 now firmly ahead of the TR6 in my estimation.

Hello Michael,

I've recently (1st March) bought a 4A 'Katie'  which was the best I could afford ..which happens to be at the very bottom of the price bracket for a presentable (from ten paces, at night) driveable TR.  Like the car you are looking at., Katie  had had only light / local club use since she was 'restored' 22 years ago. The seller was straight with me insomuch as he explained that his prior owner had attended classes at a local technical college to learn welding and basic paint skills.  In reality, what might I expect of the quality of his work ? ..let alone his ability to assemble a Mechano set of rusty chassis, replaced floor and sills body tub, and who knows what the condition of the doors and wings were in for a 1967 cheap sports car, most likely owned by students or other on-a-struggling-budget persons.  He sold the car as an unfinished project to the chap I bought it off, who applied paint and reassembled the car. The door gaps on your example are very much better than Katie's.  Thereafter he did other jobs like replacing the suspension bushes with poly-bushes, and changed the starter motor to a a hi-torque but essentially the car was good enough to drive on average 1200 miles a year.

Expectations ;  As a sports-car in 2021, the TR4 is an old-timer from a bygone age when saloon cars mostly pottered around at 45mph and more powerful cars like Jaguars were so incredibly heavy they rolled around corners.  Today a £600 cheapo 3-door eurobox made in Asia will give your TR a run for its money.   

My own expectations of a TR was of an open top sportscar, from that bygone era which I might tour rural countrysides (Great Britain, Ireland, Brittany, etc).  And for the money I paid it should be a reasonably competent driver that I could use immediately, but with details to sort out ..as and when I used the car in earnest, and as hobby over a period of time. In short, it had room for improvement.  Conversely, the prior owner's expectations were most likely to go to a local club meetings for a beer & chat, and to attend local car shows with his wife in a garden chair and a nicely polished pretty car ..but only when the weather was dry.  

Naturally I was disappointed when the car's temp gauge showed overheating issues after just 20 miles ..when I picked the car up.  Less so that the car's steering-wheel shook itself out of my hands at 60mph.  But then even more so when I discovered the gearbox had to come out to replace the clutch and its release mechanism a couple of weeks later.  I hadn't expected that sort of job so soon.

This car's hood is off a TR6 and the hood frames have broken in two places - through lack of lubrication. The edge flange of the bonnet is cracked, and the doors don't shut properly. I have bought replacement latches. The boot lids rarely fit well on these TR's. Mine is typical.  Otherwise, my car has more rattles on this car than a farmer's trailer bouncing down a dirt track, and I'm presently concerned that the chassis has cracked and is flexing (even more than usual).  Aside from that I'm systematically replacing most every piece of rubber on the car, starting with heater and radiator hoses, but also engine and gearbox mounts, steering column couplings, brake pipes and tyres.  After all., most are over 20 years old and many including the tyres much older than that.  My car is an overdrive model (in my opinion ; very necessary for touring) and I have just bought a second-hand fabric surrey top and (grp / after market) back-light ( I was very lucky to get that cheap ..but still, it was not at all inexpensive).  The back-light frame will need paint, the window refitted, and then also 'adapting' to fit.  The steel surrey lid will need extensive re-fabrication and welding first. However it's probably just as easy to use it as a mould to make one in grp from.

What you get for your money is more than an old car with style - it is a lifestyle ..that takes dedication and commitment to make as good as you are happy to live with.  Different people have different standards. If you love the car then that's not an issue, but if you're buying on a whim then you'll most likely be disappointed and part company after a short while and more money spent.    I'd suggest you go back to have a drive of the car.  Feel it, listen to it when you are driving her and see if you fall in love.  If you do then bollocks to the quirks and wrinkles, the knobbly knees and whatever else.  And if you're unsure.. then walk away.  Another time in life you may be ready for such a relationship. 

Also jack the car up and get under her with a torch to see what chassis repairs have been done and how well.  See if the door shuts change massively when the car is jacked up (they all move some and the doors don't open and close properly but they should be good again when the car is back on the ground and rolled.   I suspect it will be OK because otherwise the MOT station would have picked up items as advisories.  The chassis and the mechanicals are the foundations these Triumphs are built upon, everything else is just bolted on (..and easily unbolted for localised repairs, restoration and adjustment).  The TR4 chassis is inherently better than the Tr4A - TR6 chassis. 

Check also the file of receipts to see what has been spent on the car and how many years ago.

The car you are looking at has a good spec., and is tidy, all together and road legal (if the MOT station is not a back street operation).  It also appears to be honest, insomuch as you can see what needs to be done.  Whether that's a pin-hole of rust, or something else.  Surely that is better than buying a car that has even worse issues hidden under bondo.?  A barely driveable TR4 of that spec will cost £14k nowadays, and a concourse example is double that, and those with history or truly exceptional are more still.,  so its price seems sensible and your own +25% budget leaves you a good reserve to bringing things up to your own standards.  

Whether £18k+ for a TR4 is good value is another matter altogether. That my friend is something only you can decided.  But any classic car is expensive to people like me who ran them as old bangers. 

Conversely, I have a friend who recently sold his very nice 4A for almost double what I paid, and still I get the impression it was an expensive car always needing more attention and likely to be costing still more soon. 

The TR4 can be a really great driver's car, and pleasure even to look at when parked, but when new they had to compete on price, so have the build quality of a Triumph Herald (a car I also happen to greatly admire).  

Hope that helps,

Pete.

[AndyTV8]

1 hour ago, mfidler said:

Oops....

How do we rank this one though?

Only you can answer that really - if I were looking for a car and this one was ‘talking to me’ I’d probably try and pay £16-17k and accept there was more to be spent.

..... good luck, Andy 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

I've just gone down the photos, one by one, so forgive me for any unkind impressions I may list but it looks like it's had a respray - good colour at present but evidence of orange-peel effect in some areas and overspray especially on seals and rubber buffers etc - look at the close-up photo of the wing top behind the driver's b-post. The driver's door does not fit well; it looks like it's had a replacement front wing, certainly the sill, and the rear sill behind the driver's door looks very suspect. I just don't trust the fit of either door or wing and the bootlid is warning me off, not to mention that gap at the lower edge of the rear O/S wing at the end of the sill. I'd be worried that something has hit it quite hard on the driver's side, requiring a replacement door - possibly not new, going by the pinhole - a front wing and a new sill.

Trim is tired, as are many of the rubber seals but underside front looks quite sound. That shot of the electrics is worrying. You could buy it as a project and be prepared to spend money but I'd like to make sure the structure is sound, particularly the floor under the driver's door.

[mfidler]

6 hours ago, Bfg said:

Expectations ;  As a sports-car in 2021, the TR4 is an old-timer from a bygone age when saloon cars mostly pottered around at 45mph and more powerful cars like Jaguars were so incredibly heavy they rolled around corners.  Today a £600 cheapo 3-door eurobox made in Asia will give your TR a run for its money.   

I'm quite happy with this - I like the character of these old cars.

6 hours ago, Bfg said:

What you get for your money is more than an old car with style - it is a lifestyle ..that takes dedication and commitment to make as good as you are happy to live with.  Different people have different standards. If you love the car then that's not an issue, but if you're buying on a whim then you'll most likely be disappointed and part company after a short while and more money spent.    I'd suggest you go back to have a drive of the car.  Feel it, listen to it when you are driving her and see if you fall in love.  If you do then bollocks to the quirks and wrinkles, the knobbly knees and whatever else.  And if you're unsure.. then walk away.  Another time in life you may be ready for such a relationship. 

Too many nagging doubts on this one, I've let the seller know that I'm no longer interested and thanked him for his time and honesty.

6 hours ago, Bfg said:

The car you are looking at has a good spec., and is tidy, all together and road legal (if the MOT station is not a back street operation).  It also appears to be honest, insomuch as you can see what needs to be done.  Whether that's a pin-hole of rust, or something else.  Surely that is better than buying a car that has even worse issues hidden under bondo.?  A barely driveable TR4 of that spec will cost £14k nowadays, and a concourse example is double that, and those with history or truly exceptional are more still.,  so its price seems sensible and your own +25% budget leaves you a good reserve to bringing things up to your own standards.  

My budget is around the 25k mark - I keep a 'disaster fund' of about 5k to hand at all times so would be happy to get a car in better condition and then spend a bit on it as and when. I've found that expecting things to go wrong and making provision in advance has always been beneficial to me and is now very much a life habit.

6 hours ago, Bfg said:

Whether £18k+ for a TR4 is good value is another matter altogether. That my friend is something only you can decided.  But any classic car is expensive to people like me who ran them as old bangers. 

I think 18k is probably about right for the car I saw - but I feel it's not the right car for me. I'm looking for something with a really solid body and chassis so I can do all the little things myself.

5 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Trim is tired, as are many of the rubber seals but underside front looks quite sound. That shot of the electrics is worrying. You could buy it as a project and be prepared to spend money but I'd like to make sure the structure is sound, particularly the floor under the driver's door.

Too much of a project for me I think - I'm willing to spend a good deal of time and money (as you have to) but it's just a little too much for me here after reviewing everything after a nights sleep.

 

6 hours ago, AndyTV8 said:

Only you can answer that really - if I were looking for a car and this one was ‘talking to me’ I’d probably try and pay £16-17k and accept there was more to be spent.

The problem is that they all 'talk to me' when I view them. I just have too many nagging doubts about this one today. I'm more looking for a 'pride-and-joy maintainer' than a 'project'. This is the first TR4 that I've seen in a long time.

[Colin Lindsay]

44 minutes ago, mfidler said:

The problem is that they all 'talk to me' when I view them. I just have too many nagging doubts about this one today. I'm more looking for a 'pride-and-joy maintainer' than a 'project'. This is the first TR4 that I've seen in a long time.

I'm idly waiting for the right Herald convertible to appear but in the past month I've debated over two Herald saloons, two camper vans, a Saab convertible and a Vitesse convertible, in fact it's gone as far as visualising them in the garage, or me in them, then happily I've decided: 'No'. I have a habit of feeling sorry for cars, especially Heralds, and you do want to rescue them to a good home - I turned down the Vitesse before but it's sprung up again. I know if I go to see it I'll end up with it. I just need to stop idly surfing the Net for cars I don't need to know exist. The right car will come along.

[thescrapman]

21 hours ago, mfidler said:

Which sill, and what are we looking for? Cosmetic?

 You showed a picture of a sill with a black dotted pattern on it.

looks decidedly crusty, seems frilly along bottom edge. Migh,t just be poor weld.

if it passed an MOT today, perhaps it is solid 

[mfidler]

3 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I'm idly waiting for the right Herald convertible to appear but in the past month I've debated over two Herald saloons, two camper vans, a Saab convertible and a Vitesse convertible, in fact it's gone as far as visualising them in the garage, or me in them, then happily I've decided: 'No'. I have a habit of feeling sorry for cars, especially Heralds, and you do want to rescue them to a good home - I turned down the Vitesse before but it's sprung up again. I know if I go to see it I'll end up with it. I just need to stop idly surfing the Net for cars I don't need to know exist. The right car will come along.

I hope so, it's just a case of time and diligence... I'm quite enjoyed improving my knowledge looking at these cars over the last 6 months. If I can just find an excellent TR4/TR6/GT6 I swear I'll never look at those ads again!

This 1969 TR6 less than half an hours drive away from me seems like a good one to look at next.