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ULEZ Historic vehicles


Mark B
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Hi all

As I live close to the proposed ULEZ extension I used their online checker for my 1968 gt6 and 1970 Vitesse, both registered as historic vehicles.

It showed that a ULEZ charge applies to both vehicles of £12.50. 

At the bottom of the page it says 'Discounts and exemptions will only show when you're signed in.

I contacted TFL and asked the adviser why their vehicle checker showed that my two historic vehicles need to pay the ULEZ charge as I believed historic vehicles are exempt.

There was silence for a few minuites while he checked. 

He suggested that I had best contact TFL and send proof of the vehicle details,  V5C etc. I presume.

If historic vehicles are exempt from ULEZ then it should show on their vehicle checker. All the details they have of the cars are correct, presumably they use DVLA records,  so it shouldn't be up to me to prove its historic.

Its worrying, as I can imagine being sent a penalty notice, and then trying to fight through the bureaucracy to get the charge dropped.

Maybe it just my vehicles, anybody checked if their classic is shown as exempt from the ULEZ charge?

When I put in the details of a car known to be ULEZ exempt it only shows that one charge applies and gives details of the congestion charge.

I think I will call again and speak to someone else who may be more informed.

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I checked mine and the charge applies. My modern diesel is exempt! If this is the case , i can see alot of classic cars on the market. At least i am unlikely to go anywhere near there!

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Out of curiosity, I put the Herald Number into the System and it came up as requiring to be charged. It too is (V5) Taxation Class "Historic Vehicle", and by definition Exempt. Living in Yorkshire, I am unlikely to want to use it in the "smoke" anyway. BUT with other Much closer towns and city`s looking at this. I can see it needs rectifying and sooner not later.

The oficial definition is:-

If you’re driving a classic of more than 40 years of age, and it’s registered for the historic tax class, you’ll automatically be exempt without needing to do anything. 

And from the TFL site:-

Historic vehicles

You can apply to stop paying vehicle tax if your vehicle was built more than 40 years ago. This date moves forward on a 40-year rolling system. For example, when the ULEZ launched in April 2019, vehicles built before 1979 were eligible to apply for historic vehicle tax class.

All vehicles that have a historic vehicle tax class will be exempt from the ULEZ. This tax class excludes any vehicle used commercially (for example, coffee vans or street food vans).

In line with the existing LEZ discount all vehicles constructed before 1 January 1973 will be exempt from the ULEZ, regardless of commercial use or otherwise.

If your vehicle meets the above criteria but is registered outside the UK, you are also exempt, but will need to register with us before travelling in the zone.

Obviously, their computer is not talking to DVLA`s computer.?

I Emailed TFL to this effect within the last Hour.

Pete

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2 hours ago, thescrapman said:

It is Mr Khan and his cronies being a pain, he is trying to dissuade you from avoiding his obnoxious charge by pretending you have to pay it.

Do some searching online.

 

With any luck after tomorrows (Thursday) election he will be out on his ear.

 

Roger

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10 hours ago, RogerH said:

With any luck after tomorrows (Thursday) election he will be out on his ear.

 

Roger

Unfortunately that is unlikely to change policy. ALL the parties, have their knickers in a twist over emissions, whilst ignoring the obvious. ie; UK "contribution" being miniscule in the grand scale of things

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1 hour ago, PeteH said:

Unfortunately that is unlikely to change policy. ALL the parties, have their knickers in a twist over emissions, whilst ignoring the obvious. ie; UK "contribution" being miniscule in the grand scale of things

Its another cash cow, the motorist pays cos they are an easy target.

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3 hours ago, PeteH said:

ALL the parties, have their knickers in a twist over emissions, whilst ignoring the obvious. ie; UK "contribution" being miniscule in the grand scale of things

Just been watching that Elon Musk oversized firework. Maybe they should send Greta (the one who thinks that her views on the environment are new, not the forumite on here) over to sort out their emission problem, especially as they keep blowing them up. They could try sending her up in one to have a better look at the problems?

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Waiting for a reply from TFL from an email I sent, I decided to give their advisers another call. Spoke to a knowledgable helpful gent. He talked me through a different way to check if my car is exempt, which involved going through a link as if I wanted to make a payment. It then showed that my Vitesse didn't need to make payment to use the ULEZ, there is no tick in the box next to ULEZ charge, only the congestion charge box is checked. Bit paranoid going this route as I didn't want to inadvertently click on something that committed me to make a payment.

Tried to explain that their vehicle checker was saying the opposite. He thought I was looking at the checker through a third party site and directed me to the TFL.gov.uk site, which I was on. 

It showed payment was needed for ULEZ using the checker, but for some reason the same page would not load on his computer. He went away and made enquires and said that the site was in the process of updates and this could be the reason I was getting this information, but assured me my Historic Vitesse is exempt from the ULEZ. I'll revisit the site in a couple of weeks to see if the checker is working correctly, but for now, panic over. 

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20 hours ago, PeteH said:

Unfortunately that is unlikely to change policy. ALL the parties, have their knickers in a twist over emissions, whilst ignoring the obvious. ie; UK "contribution" being miniscule in the grand scale of things

It is - but if you count the emissions we have subcontracted out by manufacturing abroad, then its not so rosy!

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35 minutes ago, Anglefire said:

It is - but if you count the emissions we have subcontracted out by manufacturing abroad, then its not so rosy!

That has far more to do with low labour costs, than any thought of emmisions. The last thing on the mind of your average "entrepreneur" is saving Britain from Smog. Ask Dyson?.

Pete

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30 minutes ago, PeteH said:

That has far more to do with low labour costs, than any thought of emmisions. The last thing on the mind of your average "entrepreneur" is saving Britain from Smog. Ask Dyson?.

Pete

There is an ongoing and occasionally heated discussion at work, relating to why the company is not adopting EVs as a priority (poor range, low payload, and an inability to tow a 1.5 ton trailer being just a few) started by and supported by mostly young enthusiastically environmental female staff ( who work in the offices in London) and dismissed by old male cynical staff (who work out in the sticks.)

Yes the EV may be low emission at point of use, but the impact where the raw materials are mined (cobalt from the DRC for example) is horrendous. 

But EVs are great and they are the future, so who are we grumpy old men to disagree.

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23 minutes ago, thescrapman said:

There is an ongoing and occasionally heated discussion at work, relating to why the company is not adopting EVs as a priority (poor range, low payload, and an inability to tow a 1.5 ton trailer being just a few) started by and supported by mostly young enthusiastically environmental female staff ( who work in the offices in London) and dismissed by old male cynical staff (who work out in the sticks.)

Yes the EV may be low emission at point of use, but the impact where the raw materials are mined (cobalt from the DRC for example) is horrendous. 

But EVs are great and they are the future, so who are we grumpy old men to disagree.

I think there are several important points there. Yes, it would be good to change to EVs IF they did what you wanted and didn't mean maybe a 1/4 of each working day was spent finding a charger and then charging up the vehicle. A friend who normally has an 80 mile each way commute. He managed to wange a Tesla 3 years ago (he has a good job, plus the benefits of cheaper running etc made it viable) However, he is always anxious that his parking space with charger is occupied when he gets to work (regular occurrence, and then a search happens to find the oik who pinched his space). Plus he has said that on some trips he has to wear a heavy coat in winter so he doesn't need the heater, that sort of thing.

I would happily buy a EV if I could reliably do a return trip to my daughters (110 miles) without fear of being stranded, and the vehicle would have to be under 10K as I have to buy my own cars. Plus it needs to carry as much stuff as the Honda Jazz I am currently using as a hack. (the huge benefit of the jazz is that everything else I dric=ve feels so much faster and more fun, but the jazz is VERY good bumbling around town)

I looked at a Leaf, but no dice..  Not enough real world range for my budget, not enough space for work stuff. Nothing else comes near teh leaf d=for value, so I am sticking with the jazz until something better comes along.

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Serious questions - What is the situation if your batteries go flat in the middle of nowhere and you call out the rescue services. If you run out of petrol/diesel it's a gallon in the tank, credit card payment and off you go. With electric how long to put enough charge in the battery to get you to a charging point, then how long to charge up... you get the drift here. Is the whole thing REALLY practical. Not to mention charging leads all over the pavements, power getting nicked from street lights, the practical questions go on and on with no real answers in sight. I notice in a local car park two charging bays for the whole shopping centre..really!!

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3 hours ago, Badwolf said:

I notice in a local car park two charging bays for the whole shopping centre..really!!

My local car park is 30p for three hours so a bit out of the way (I'm not paying 60p to park a few hundred yards closer!!), but they have one charge point with two sockets for leads. Wednesday both spaces were filled with cars on the leads for the full time period, and as I returned to my car I caught the eye of a woman sitting in her car, looking for all the world as if to say: where am I meant to go?

Imagine the fun there would be if you went to work and just left your car at the fuel pump all day... but if that woman is out of charge, and the charging points are few and far between, and all occuppied for hours, what does she do?

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5 hours ago, thescrapman said:

Yes the EV may be low emission at point of use, but the impact where the raw materials are mined (cobalt from the DRC for example) is horrendous. 

And sucking dino juice out of the ground only makes flowers?

Yes, current (!) EVs have a greater environmental "backpack" when the hit the sales floor but if you charge with all green electricity they make up for it sometimes within as low as 30k kms.

Manufacturers have been trying to reduce the impact as well. I think there is a new Hyundai that is 40% recycled/renewable material.

Also, an EV is 80-90% recyclable (including the batteries) where as internal combustion engine (ICE) is pretty much only worth its weight as scrap.

BMW did an upgrade on their i3s few years back. The cars got 30% better range and faster charging. The process took about 45 minutes and the batteries that were removed were recycled as power walls.

5 hours ago, clive said:

However, he is always anxious that his parking space with charger is occupied when he gets to work

There are cables up to 10 meters long that can be used that have literally been driven over by tanks and been fine.

5 hours ago, clive said:

A friend who normally has an 80 mile each way commute. He managed to wange a Tesla 3 years ago

Model S, X or 3?

In any case, all of those have minimum range of over a 200 mils. If he leaves fully charged he should be able to make it back and forth on one charge.

5 hours ago, clive said:

Plus he has said that on some trips he has to wear a heavy coat in winter so he doesn't need the heater, that sort of thing.

Yep... that was a problem.. but newer cars use heat pumps that are vastly less power intensive...

5 hours ago, Badwolf said:

What is the situation if your batteries go flat in the middle of nowhere and you call out the rescue services

You get towed just like any car whose engine has blown or for some other reason can't move under its own power...?

Most have a recuperation mode that generates power from the wheels. A friend coasted down the Alps and regenerated 25% of his battery (yes he used more than that to get UP the hill physics still apply...) and anyone towing you could help you get some power back.....

A more realistic scenario is that they tow you to the nearest charging point and you fill back up.... no damage done...

They do warn you when you get low and go into an "eco" mode and many have onboard charging point finders...

5 hours ago, Badwolf said:

you get the drift here. Is the whole thing REALLY practical.

Would you leave on a 400 mile trip with a 1/4 tank of fuel knowing that there is no filling station between you and the destination?

No you wouldn't... you plan ahead.

A guy who converted he Spitfire to electric lives near me and drove to Greece and back. He reckons he only added 2-3 hours to the journey by charging. He planned it out in advance, timed his charging with meal breaks, site seeing etc. He can charge the car (albeit slowly) from any electrical source and never got stuck once.

What IS impractical and there is still a lot of work to be done here is when those charging stations don't work... and that IS a problem because filling stations are seldom empty...

It is not the same as before but it is not that it is a huge problem either...

5 hours ago, Badwolf said:

Not to mention charging leads all over the pavements, power getting nicked from street lights, the practical questions go on and on with no real answers in sight.

Stealing power from street lights? Seriously? Like no police or ordnance office would notice a cable running to a car that has a license plate thereby identifying the thief?

Charging in urban areas is a problem. Not everyone has dedicated parking or a garage. Heck, my boss' complex that touts being majorly "green" because of its "passive" building construction has no provision for charging whatsoever.

However, most that live in built up urban areas with now parking don't have cars (I reckon) but for those of us that do have the ability to charge at home and work there is no problem really...

5 hours ago, Badwolf said:

I notice in a local car park two charging bays for the whole shopping centre..really!!

Probably because most people shop within a 10-30 mile radius of their home and even a 10 year old Nissan Leaf that has been fast charged in Arctic and Saharan temperatures 3000 time a year could manage it there and back without needing a recharge.

The point of charging bays in such places is purely meant as a convenience and a way to differentiate themselves from other shops. It's not meant to be used for hours and hours on end (they usually aren't that fast of a charger).

And no, everyone using EVs will not hurt the grid it will not cause power prices to rise either before someone goes on about that.... and long term studies have shown batteries only lose between 5-10% of their capacity over several years, much less than previously thought..

 

5 hours ago, clive said:

Yes, it would be good to change to EVs IF they did what you wanted and didn't mean maybe a 1/4 of each working day was spent finding a charger and then charging up the vehicle.

Why would you do that? You know your route, you know how much time is spent and where it is all planable.

6 hours ago, thescrapman said:

low payload, and an inability to tow a 1.5 ton trailer being just a few)

Ah FINALLY we point out something that IS a real issue (just like the broken charging bays...actually)

Not having trailer hitches and being able to pull weight and/or the fact that the added weight really hurts range IS a problem.

That is changing though, there are 5 models coming out this year with 1-3 ton trailer hitches and I know of several vans coming out that should be able to handle up to 3.5 tons easily.

So yes, it is a problem but it will be resolved.

What lets EVs down are batteries and charging. I totally agree. But they have a sort of coefficient of variation type relationship (I am probably using the wrong term...). You need larger/better batteries so that the cars con go farther and we don't need as many charging stations but if we had more charging stations we wouldn't need as big or better batteries etc...

Battery tech has come a long long way and it keeps getting better. Batteries with 30% graphene will start to be produced. They are lighter with better capacity and made of non-lethal materials.

Charging tech is also getting better and the network tighter.

EVs are not perfect but and if you look at actual studies and not just headlines they have a lot going for them ...

Don't get me wrong, when a Porsche 917 "snuck" up on me the burble made me weak kneed... hearing it scream down the straight is literally music.

The Jaguar F-Type exhaust is sound poetry to me.. I get it.

And I really do hope that synthetic fuels will allow these legends to go on forever.

I recommend Robert Llewlyen's (yes Kryten) youtube Fully Charged for an idea of how fast things are changing in the world of power and energy...

 

 

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Thanks for your comments which are great. The one big drawback is the situation of foward planning for someone, yes me, who has trouble charging his electric razor and mobile phone. Forward planning is great, but in my experience it only takes one break in the chain of planning for it all to fall apart. I am of an age when I can take it or leave it but I remain, despite your very constructive comments, unconvinced. Oh, by the way on the subject of electricity theft, it didn't stop the crooks running the cannibis farm down the road, but then I suppose, they are more expert than most of us!!

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15 minutes ago, DVD3500 said:

when the hit the sales floor but if you charge with all green electricity they make up for it sometimes within as low as 30k kms.

What percentage of UK electricity is 'green'? Can the grid cope if the number of EVs increases quickly. Updating the grid is slow. Just asking...

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While EVs (Electric Vehicles) are the future longer term that WON'T mean BEVs (Battery Electric Vehicles) but most likely hydrogen fuel cells.  Easy-enough to build wind farms in the temperate latitudes/solar farms in the tropics to convert H20 in a H and O/moderatly easy to store and transport the H/theoretically straight forward to make fuel cells to recombine the H with atomspheric O to generate electricity and H20.  The thing is turning fuel cells from "theoretically straight forward" to just "straight forward" isn't easy or cheap - unlike just building a better milk float (and making sure you look the other way whenever someone points you to the human and ecological impact extracting rare earths is having on China and Africa.

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1 hour ago, DVD3500 said:

Also, an EV is 80-90% recyclable (including the batteries) where as internal combustion engine (ICE) is pretty much only worth its weight as scrap.

What lets EVs down are batteries and charging. I totally agree.

I had to chip in as the first quote here makes me wonder... if the engine is scrap, what's 'recycled' mean? An ICE car ends up as metal reinforcing rods in a motorway flyover, an EV ends up as a park bench, or if we're talking about reusable components, I'd say a lot of doors, bonnets, wings etc get reused from both. How are parts from an EV any more recyclable than a current vehicle? I don't think it'll make me breath a sigh of relief for the planet knowing that my plastic cup was once a BMW...

As for the second quote... it's a bit like saying what lets the human race down is people... :)

I know what you mean but it just sounds funny. 

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The sceptic, in me, ask`s the question?. How do you get sufficient battery capacity in an LGV tractor unit, to do 2 shifts a day, up to 10 hrs per driver?. And, what do you do with all the millions of still usable modern Diesel Trucks?. I`ve driven them 10+ years old with well over a Million Miles on them?. The same question, but less of an issue is the fact that  there are so many still viable vehicles "out there", which with service and maintenance will be good for 20 years or more. Where is the REAL incentive for the "little guy" to replace the ageing but still useable family vehicle?, especially if you are on the tightest of budgets?. 50 years is in my view the more realistic timeline.

Pete

P.S. Mr Kahn`s. Buddies at TFL. have yet to respond to my E_Mail.

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