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Mark B
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1 hour ago, Mjit said:

Easy-enough to build wind farms in the temperate latitudes/solar farms in the tropics

Apart from virtually nobody wants them within sight of where they live/work/go on holiday. How Spain has managed to build some many I don't know, but here just the slightest hint of someone might be looking at the feasibility of building them gets the anti brigade out.

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2 hours ago, Mjit said:

While EVs (Electric Vehicles) are the future longer term that WON'T mean BEVs (Battery Electric Vehicles) but most likely hydrogen fuel cells.  Easy-enough to build wind farms in the temperate latitudes/solar farms in the tropics to convert H20 in a H and O/moderatly easy to store and transport the H/theoretically straight forward to make fuel cells to recombine the H with atomspheric O to generate electricity and H20.  The thing is turning fuel cells from "theoretically straight forward" to just "straight forward" isn't easy or cheap - unlike just building a better milk float (and making sure you look the other way whenever someone points you to the human and ecological impact extracting rare earths is having on China and Africa.

Producing hydrogen is very very inefficient (At best they think they might be able to get it to 70% - its about 50% at the moment by using lots of high temperature steam to break it up) - Electrolysis is another option - at best less than 50% from water to H2 to water again. 

Better batteries are the solution - faster charging - 80% in less than 5minutes and a 200mile range is what is needed.

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I feel that my current modern will probably be my last. A sort of ancient & modern. As long as it doesn't cost a fortune for necessities and petrol is available then I see no reason to change it. I chose last year not to go for a hybrid or pure electric, not trusting the technology at the time. Old school, yes. I believe in tried and tested, preferably to destruction in my case. Still not 100% happy with the modern. Too many computer chips, it nags me, it knows more than me and I haven't figured out how to turn of the satnav tracking so everyone knows where I am or where I've been and at what speed. Progress...humbug. Of course you also have the Bill Gates syndrome. When the chips go down (or get an upgrade)....you are stuffed.  Sorry mate, they don't make those chips any more, you need a new car.....what about this nice electric job, only one careful owner, a nice bloke from Uber.

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11 minutes ago, Anglefire said:

Better batteries are the solution - faster charging - 80% in less than 5minutes and a 200mile range is what is needed.

Mark - Many years ago an ex-friend from the computer industry showed me a piece on batteries that recharge literally in minutes. He said (conspiracy theory alert) that this was being supressed. Have you or anyone else ever come across this 'technology', even in theory?

Maybe something like this...

https://futurism.com/new-instantly-rechargeable-battery-deals-a-fatal-blow-to-fossil-fuels

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Hum that site wants me to turn off my adblockers. No choice. So my choice is not to go on their website ;)

 

But in principle I haven't - but from a purely engineering/physical perspective the limitations of speed is heat. And current. You can't get away from the fact that you have to get the power in and that means more current or same current and more volts. 800v is the current norm for really fast chargers I believe.

With my current modern, I fill up roughly every 600-700 miles. Between once and three times a month at the moment. If that became twice to six times a month I could live with it easily. But I need at least 300miles on a charge as I can do that in a day at work - and the idea of sitting at the services on the way home for an hour to charge the beast to get home doesn't excite me. And will I get paid for the time? Doubt it.

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The sticking point with E-V`s is the Charging time. I can, assuming I get on the pump fill my car in around 5 min and pay (at the pump). NO E-V comes close, Next is range, 200miles?. sorry not enough 300?? Maybeee?. Then there is the home charging?. OK for those of us with drives and garages. But many park in the street in urban area`s. So a roadside infrastructure would be required. Capable of servicing the numbers parked?. That in itself will be an expensive exercise.

Pete

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26 minutes ago, PeteH said:

The sticking point with E-V`s is the Charging time. I can, assuming I get on the pump fill my car in around 5 min and pay (at the pump). NO E-V comes close, Next is range, 200miles?. sorry not enough 300?? Maybeee?. Then there is the home charging?. OK for those of us with drives and garages. But many park in the street in urban area`s. So a roadside infrastructure would be required. Capable of servicing the numbers parked?. That in itself will be an expensive exercise.

Pete

Don't forget - if you replace all the ICE's with EV's then you will be rationed to the charging. There just isn't enough electricity to go round.

 

Roger

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So. "Futuristic" long distance travel. An integrated system of rail connections between the larger conurbations. With Chunnel shuttle style waggons. Shuttling family sized E-V`s, to and from which their own journeys will comence. Charging done on the train?.

Sorted?.

Pete

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15 hours ago, DVD3500 said:

 

Model S, X or 3?

In any case, all of those have minimum range of over a 200 mils. If he leaves fully charged he should be able to make it back and forth on one charge.

Yep... that was a problem.. but newer cars use heat pumps that are vastly less power intensive...

 

 

 

Model S. An 80K car, and yes, he does get worried about range. Get a diversion (common) or shut road in the winter, you are stuffed. And the car is controlling you, taking away your freedom of choice. That is maybe the issue?

As to charging. I have 2 driveways so charging not an issues for me. But I reckon 70% of my cities residents live in flats, many converted fro large houses with no parking spaces, or terraced houses. It is common to have to park in the next street. Sometime up to a miles from your home, parking is hard. So for all teh existing cars to become electric, every street will need a charge point every 5metres. At the rate things get done that will take years to happen. 10's of years. And nothing at all will happen until it has to, councils don't do advanced planning.

It also disadvantages the poorer people who simply can't afford to spend large sums on EVs. I drive around, and reckon half the cars I see are over 8 years old. Value of those is probably £2k average. How are they supposed to buy an EV once fossil fuels start disappearing? So maybe the transfer to EVs is going to take 10 years or more? 

Colin, your 30p for 3 hrs parking. Brighton centre onstreet was £1.15 for 15 minutes a couple of years ago..... max 2 hrs. (I had a traders permit then, so left the car there all day, legitimately. But that permit is £750 a year, hence I no longer have it) 

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2 hours ago, clive said:

Colin, your 30p for 3 hrs parking. Brighton centre onstreet was £1.15 for 15 minutes a couple of years ago..... max 2 hrs. (I had a traders permit then, so left the car there all day, legitimately. But that permit is £750 a year, hence I no longer have it) 

30p for three hours in a good-sized car park behind the shops that's always empty; 60p per hour on the other more civilised side. Main Street - 60 minutes max only, and they double or even treble park in front of the shops. It's unbelievable where they'll park to save 30p and a hundred yards walk. When drivers complain, and the Police or Traffic Wardens move the parkers on, the shopkeepers complain that it's ruining their trade and victimising their customers.

They wanted to put a single charging point on the main  street, but the EV drivers complained that 60 minutes isn't long enough to charge, and everyone else complained that if they're allowed more than 60 minutes then so should everyone else - so: the usual stalemate.

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13 hours ago, PeteH said:

So. "Futuristic" long distance travel. An integrated system of rail connections between the larger conurbations. With Chunnel shuttle style waggons. Shuttling family sized E-V`s, to and from which their own journeys will comence. Charging done on the train?.

Sorted?.

Pete

That has already been tried.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorail_(British_Rail)

I like touring in Scotland and would certainly use this type of service a couple of times a year. 

Not sure what it cost in the day but it costs about £100+ today in petrol and two days in time (hotel accom etc)  and you arrive knackered.

Perhaps the future deficiencies in EV hold more promise.

Roger

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I can't  see a way forward at the moment for electric cars esp in Aus where distances are so great, none of us like the idea of elect cars, one mate says industry will provide the infrastructure no sign yet of it coming, another says solar film panels and paint is being explored & that'll change the game, but when? (people will  have to wash their cars!) there's stories of the more affluent suburbs where in a court 6 neighbors have Tesla's and can't charge there cars simultanously, even where we live in a middle class court there's at least one car in each family that parks on the street how would they charge overnight? this obviously is a far greater problem in the UK where on street parking is extensive.

I used to travel from Melb to Newcastle, thro Sydney 3 times a year around 1100klm it took me just under 12 hours with generally two stops for coffee and snack, i wouldn't be happy with a couple of hours delay, I know I'm a dinosaur who just loves the smell of petrol in the morning!

Oh and our State Govt now wants to tax the elect car brigade on the mileage they do to top up the govt coffers of petrol tax lost which I think is around 47c per litre, is that causing a stink, but it's got to come. 

Some one was telling me it costs around $40 to charge up at a service depot, that's around 2/3 to 75% of the petrol cost, so where's the economics?

Trouble is we don't know what's fact or fiction  every ones telling the story to suit their argument! 

Oh and how does extreme heat and cold affect the battery performance, eg 35C in Aus or -20F in Canada, I thought both these extremes adversely affect battery performance, and I'm buggered if I'll turn the Air Conditioner off esp in traffic!!! 

Grumpy!!

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1 hour ago, Peter Truman said:

another says solar film panels and paint is being explored & that'll change the game, but when?

Not one EV that I'm aware of has even got a small solar panel, maybe sunroof sized, to top up the battery whilst parked all day. Maybe there's a brand that has something like that already? Seems to make very obvious sense but then maybe too obvious?

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1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Not one EV that I'm aware of has even got a small solar panel, maybe sunroof sized, to top up the battery whilst parked all day. Maybe there's a brand that has something like that already? Seems to make very obvious sense but then maybe too obvious?

Bloke at work has a ev/hybrid, with a solar panel on the roof. Full sunny day of a 12 hour shift allows it to charge enough for four miles!

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On street parking for an electric vehicle is one thing. The length of the cable to charge it is another. When you have to park in the next street it gets more interesting and brings a new vision to the phrase 'spaghetti junction'. "You just stole ma power, go for your gun"....ohh sorry, that's a spaghetti western!! 

That's something else to think about.. length of cable vs. drop in current due to resistance.

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2 minutes ago, Mathew said:

Charging pads on the road, like a transformer, ac magnetic fields. Just like your phone. Saves on cable.

Yes, you could amalgamate them into speed bumps. Just a thought. Ok, enough stupid comments off to the garage.

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1 hour ago, Badwolf said:

Latest Amaz*n experimental electric delivery vehicle replaces battery pack...

image.png.2afcbe92781c1ab497a7225ab69731e7.png

Swappable batteries is something I think being explored in Aus. Have a series of stations with batteries on charge - drive in drop the battery, fit new one. drive away. The batteries being leased.

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It's really a bit like the old Wild West type stagecoaches (and of course the old methods of transport over here) where you stop at a way stations and swap your horses for a fresh set and carry on.  Similar sort of thing. Imagine how long you would have to wait to rest your team before you could continue. The similarities are all there right down to the production of unwanted gases.

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5 hours ago, Badwolf said:

On street parking for an electric vehicle is one thing. The length of the cable to charge it is another. When you have to park in the next street it gets more interesting and brings a new vision to the phrase 'spaghetti junction'. "You just stole ma power, go for your gun"....ohh sorry, that's a spaghetti western!! 

That's something else to think about.. length of cable vs. drop in current due to resistance.

How long do you think they'll last?

We'll see an entire black market springing up in half-inched charging cables, or vans full of them driving to the recycling yards.

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On 07/05/2021 at 15:48, Chris A said:

What percentage of UK electricity is 'green'? Can the grid cope if the number of EVs increases quickly. Updating the grid is slow. Just asking...

This is nearly 3 years out of date ... I reckon renewables have gone up a bit since then: https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/our-work/generation/electricity-generation.html

On 07/05/2021 at 16:34, Mjit said:

While EVs (Electric Vehicles) are the future longer term that WON'T mean BEVs (Battery Electric Vehicles) but most likely hydrogen fuel cells.

Hydrogen has always been 10 years way... decades... it IS a better solution in many ways but we currently get most of it from natural gas (dino farts) and a LOT of power goes into making it. Porsche has just announced make synthetic fuels (and possibly hydrogen) in Chile in an area with enough solar and wind to do it "carbon neutral"... problem is getting it to where it is needed and the added infrastructure (you can't reuse petrol pipes and tanks...)

BUT like you say, if you can generate it locally that would be ideal... then again, if you are generating electricity to make hydrogen why not just put it into a car directly...?

(I am being slightly facticous there...)

On 07/05/2021 at 17:16, PeteH said:

The sceptic, in me, ask`s the question?. How do you get sufficient battery capacity in an LGV tractor unit, to do 2 shifts a day, up to 10 hrs per driver?. And, what do you do with all the millions of still usable modern Diesel Trucks?. I`ve driven them 10+ years old with well over a Million Miles on them?. The same question, but less of an issue is the fact that  there are so many still viable vehicles "out there", which with service and maintenance will be good for 20 years or more. Where is the REAL incentive for the "little guy" to replace the ageing but still useable family vehicle?, especially if you are on the tightest of budgets?. 50 years is in my view the more realistic timeline.

I am very skeptical of anything that comes down the line as new and innovative and therefore automatically great. I work in software and I swear the "next best thing" pops up at least twice a week. I drag my heals on even installing mandatory updates and I still use wired headphones. Yes, I have a VCR, cassette player and a record player at home too! Never had a bandwidth problem....

But to your question the answer: They shouldn't buy them now. They are too expensive. The (functioning) infrastructure isn't there and range is still a problem for some.

There are usable 200 mile range EVs coming out with a list (!) price of 30k€ this year. That is getting darn close to what a ICE would cost brand new if it has all the bells and whistles.

Things are changing fast and I reckon it won't be more than 10 years and the average Jo/e will be able to buy something that is more or less the same as an ICE at a barely higher price.

On 07/05/2021 at 17:02, Colin Lindsay said:

if the engine is scrap, what's 'recycled' mean?

My definition of recycled is re-using something as close as possible to its original intent when it was sold. I saw a Horizon episode where a guy converted plastic back to oil but he spent so much time and energy that it was completely unfeasible.

In the case of EVs dead batteries can be refurbished within a day and the car can be made as good as new. Or the batteries can be used as batteries just as a power wall for example. Turning it into a park bench is "recycling" because you didn't drill more dino juice for the plastic but a lot of time and energy went into it as well.

Turning and  ICE into a steel rods is a LOT of heat and energy.

The first "R" is Reduce, the second is "Reuse" and the third is Recycle. So I guess I am talking more about "reusing" an EV rather than recycling...

On 07/05/2021 at 17:02, Colin Lindsay said:

my plastic cup was once a BMW

<pedantic mode: on> Plastic cups are banned in the EU starting in July.. <pedantic mode:off> 😄

Oh, one smallish point: Running cost of EVs is a bit lower as they don't need motor oil, many have no clutch and of course no exhaust to rust through. They are easier on the brakes because of regeneration too.... The newer EVs do have coolant as it was discovered keeping the batteries at a specific temp made them work better and of course there is transmission fluid and bearing grease etc.

As I said, EVs are not perfect and they are not the solution for everything. I simply want to ask people to refresh their knowledge on the subjet from time to time as it is changing very fast and not believe every headline you read.

For example, in  Germany about once a year you see the headline "Diesels cleaner than EVs! The ADAC (German equivalent of AAA or AA) says so!"

If you read the actual study (which was done in 2013 when the renewable electricity mix was only 40% in Germany) it simply tried to figure out when EVs are "greener" and if you charged them from coal it took well over 100k km to get them "cleaner" than a diesel but all renewable was much faster like 30k km.

The study was redone in 2015 and those numbers shifted in favor of EVs even more...

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Mathew said:

Not one EV that I'm aware of has even got a small solar panel, maybe sunroof sized, to top up the battery whilst parked all day. Maybe there's a brand that has something like that already? Seems to make very obvious sense but then maybe too obvious?

Skoda Enyaq, Hyundai Eoniq... Still only an option though...

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