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Mark B
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5 hours ago, Anglefire said:

Swappable batteries is something I think being explored in Aus. Have a series of stations with batteries on charge - drive in drop the battery, fit new one. drive away. The batteries being leased

An Israli company attempted that over 15 years ago. It broke down because the industry refused to agree on a standard for batteries and the bureaucracy of getting approval....

 

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On 07/05/2021 at 20:29, RogerH said:

Don't forget - if you replace all the ICE's with EV's then you will be rationed to the charging. There just isn't enough electricity to go round.

Ummm... proof?

In fact, people are starting to use their EVs to put power BACK into the grid when there is high demand to stabilize prices...

I have not seen proof that if everyone has EVs that it will cause any major breakdowns...

Maybe I just haven't found it...?

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8 minutes ago, DVD3500 said:

Ummm... proof?

In fact, people are starting to use their EVs to put power BACK into the grid when there is high demand to stabilize prices...

I have not seen proof that if everyone has EVs that it will cause any major breakdowns...

Maybe I just haven't found it...?

Yes you are right. That is one reason for the push for smart meters in homes.  They can work out when they can pull some juice back off your car and how much. 

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6 minutes ago, DVD3500 said:

Ummm... proof?

In fact, people are starting to use their EVs to put power BACK into the grid when there is high demand to stabilize prices...

I have not seen proof that if everyone has EVs that it will cause any major breakdowns...

Maybe I just haven't found it...?

The medium term future is having EV feeding back into,the grid, to help fill the gaps, you tell your supplier you don't intend to use your car the next day and it will empty the battery if it needs to use the electricity elsewhere, then recharge it ready for when you need it, probably using someone else's unneeded power.

There is a lot about EV having a much lower servicing cost, but surely replacing the battery pack IS routine servicing as it will be degraded after a few years. And that isn't cheap.

If you are suffering from insomnia look up RIIO 2 which is OFGEMs vision of the future and how the DNO and DSO will need to operate over the next 7 years or so.

Lots is about increasingly the infrastructure capacity with all the new EV and also heat pumps and electric boilers coming on stream with the impending discontinuation of gas and oil boilers in new build.

And all at no additional cost to the end users as why would they want to pay for an ability to charge their EV.

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1 hour ago, DVD3500 said:

This is nearly 3 years out of date ... I reckon renewables have gone up a bit since then: https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/our-work/generation/electricity-generation.html

 

<pedantic mode: on> Plastic cups are banned in the EU starting in July.. <pedantic mode:off> 😄

So in the UK about 1/3 of the electricity is green, EVs aren't really that green at present then. In France it is even lower as almost 80% of the electricity is nuclear.

Before I will consider EVs green these figures need to be boosted.

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2 hours ago, DVD3500 said:

Ummm... proof?

In fact, people are starting to use their EVs to put power BACK into the grid when there is high demand to stabilize prices...

I have not seen proof that if everyone has EVs that it will cause any major breakdowns...

Maybe I just haven't found it...?

If there is plenty to go round why is it each winter the EDF ( French electricity company) raise the risk of power cuts? Britain imports electricity so doesn't even produce enough for home consumption at present.

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1 hour ago, Anglefire said:

Yes you are right. That is one reason for the push for smart meters in homes.  They can work out when they can pull some juice back off your car and how much. 

Interesting concept. Just how much power would a battery provide to the grid? If the supply is that tight heaven help the day a power station trips out or there is no wind/ sunshine or a very cold winter

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One 'good' thing about EVs is their construction requires fewer parts and less labour. One 'bad' thing about them is they require fewer parts and less labour. Jobs!

There was a recent report here about car repair garages and their future. Part of the programme dealt with the fact that a significant number of garage owners were getting close to retirement age hence a of less. However with the increase of EVs and their need for less maintenance fewer garages would be needed.

Maintaining EVs requires special training, equipment and tools. Not cheap.

Bring back the horse and cart a truly green form of transport. Wait a moment! There are now a few 'school buses' that are horse drawn carriages. Horses have even been reintroduced in the forests to clear timber.

I live in an area called Le Perche with large areas of forests and Percheron horses.

I even have an acquaintance who goes into town on horseback to do his shopping. Ok so he is a little 'special'. We call him 'Dan Dan the horse riding Man'

 

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38 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Interesting concept. Just how much power would a battery provide to the grid? If the supply is that tight heaven help the day a power station trips out or there is no wind/ sunshine or a very cold winter

Individually, true, But multiply it by a million and that is a lot of stored energy to borrow.

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6 minutes ago, Anglefire said:

Individually, true, But multiply it by a million and that is a lot of stored energy to borrow.

How much is 'a lot'. Would it be significant in terms of overall consumption. It also depends on the fact that a large number of people don't need their cars charged. If you don't need your car topped up then why would you plug it in? I don't fill my car every time I take it out. If I had an EV with say a range of 300 miles and at the end of the day it had enough of a reserve for 200 and the next day I wasn't going out or only doing 50 miles I really don't see me plugging it in.

The theory is good but reality is different. I also assume that if the grid 'borrows' your battery power they credit you with the same amount to recharge later.

 

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DVD in Aus we now import ALL our cars so how can we standardise the battery packs unless the World does it for us?

Eons ago the daughter worked for a US largest motor Corp in the development group at the time he thought was Hydrogen not EV 

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So far no one has come up with "the solution" the "elephant in the room". The fact that Vast amounts of the nations "goods" are moved by Trucks?. Personal transport is (probably) solvable at some (great?) cost. The greater cost is How you move 45t of Trailer with your Food in it, from the supply to the consumer?. The size of the Battery needed to power a LGV tractor unit 22Hrs per day every day. and keep it charged, Is AFAIK something that no one is considering?. It is roumoured that Tesla is "experimenting" with E-Trucks. But the load capacity and by definition the Cost per Unit basis, is a fraction of that of a Diesel. Now take the USA where the distances are vast and tell me how that would work? UK might make it work, but, even here, I have serious doubts. And of course Oz`s Famous Road Trains????

Pete

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RE; the foregoing. I have considered the use of truck`s in relay (like the Stage Coach horses?). Which would reqiure at best 3 time the number of Tractor units, and the capital cost thereof, 1/2 or 2/3 of which would stand idle being charged for part of the day?.

Pete

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9 hours ago, Chris A said:

How much is 'a lot'. Would it be significant in terms of overall consumption. It also depends on the fact that a large number of people don't need their cars charged. If you don't need your car topped up then why would you plug it in? I don't fill my car every time I take it out. If I had an EV with say a range of 300 miles and at the end of the day it had enough of a reserve for 200 and the next day I wasn't going out or only doing 50 miles I really don't see me plugging it in.

The theory is good but reality is different. I also assume that if the grid 'borrows' your battery power they credit you with the same amount to recharge later.

 

Why plug it in every day?? Because you will sell your electricity for more than you paid for it, as it is in demand, so you can charge a premium, and then you recharge when it is cheap again later.

Capitalism at its best.

Besides, you will need the extra money as all that too and fro will undoubtedly degrade the batteries much faster meaning a replacement is needed sooner.

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1 hour ago, PeteH said:

So far no one has come up with "the solution" the "elephant in the room". The fact that Vast amounts of the nations "goods" are moved by Trucks?. Personal transport is (probably) solvable at some (great?) cost. The greater cost is How you move 45t of Trailer with your Food in it, from the supply to the consumer?. The size of the Battery needed to power a LGV tractor unit 22Hrs per day every day. and keep it charged, Is AFAIK something that no one is considering?. It is roumoured that Tesla is "experimenting" with E-Trucks. But the load capacity and by definition the Cost per Unit basis, is a fraction of that of a Diesel. Now take the USA where the distances are vast and tell me how that would work? UK might make it work, but, even here, I have serious doubts. And of course Oz`s Famous Road Trains????

Pete

That is possibly easily solved, and involves going back in time many decades, you move all the bulk goods by rail, between local distribution hubs, and deliveries to the door is via a fleet of small vans. Pretty much the same as it was 100 years ago.

Will require renationalised railways to remove the internal charging market that keeps prices artificially high to provide the profits for the franchisees.

The cost of moving a hundred containers on a train is significantly less than on the road, All the major ports in the U.K. Have very good rail connections already.

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23 minutes ago, thescrapman said:

That is possibly easily solved, and involves going back in time many decades, you move all the bulk goods by rail, between local distribution hubs, and deliveries to the door is via a fleet of small vans. Pretty much the same as it was 100 years ago.

Or even further back, canals. As long as the goods don't need to be delivered quickly canals are a good option, so much so that a new network is being planned here. The first section has recently been given the go ahead. The network is to bring goods from the major coastal ports into Paris. Several cities, and it is growing, now have delivery by cargo bikes in the city centres. Delivery times from depot to client are virtually the same.

image.jpeg.74f2e331abf56367a4e7c2638f312470.jpeg

 

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I live beside one of the longest canals in Ulster; but long silted up. Theoretically it could move goods from the sea thirty miles inland - that's just a guess based on the locations I know it runs to. The railway still runs parallel to it but nowhere near the network it used to be, although they're talking about reopening some of the long-closed lines. I was out on a survey recently and the local farmers tell me that the ground where the line once ran is so well made and so heavily packed out with granite chippings they can't even dig it.

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1 hour ago, thescrapman said:

Will require renationalised railways to remove the internal charging market that keeps prices artificially high to provide the profits for the franchisees

I'm a card carrying capitalist but even I think nationalising the railways is possibly the best option. What we have now just doesn't work. 

Iain 

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11 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

DVD in Aus we now import ALL our cars so how can we standardise the battery packs unless the World does it for us?

Eons ago the daughter worked for a US largest motor Corp in the development group at the time he thought was Hydrogen not EV 

Exactly.. . that is why it failed the first time...

Just google "Evs killed hydrogen" and you will see lots and lots of reasons why hydrogen is losing out.

It (currently) doesn't have enough advantages...

and regarding shipment of goods: I reckon it will be another 10 to 15 years before trucks are electrified or use hydrogen on a grands scale.

Mind you, most of the trucks I see are stuck in traffic jams so a method of recharging using induction on guardrails (a concept tested successfully in France almost 10 years ago) would help them along nicely.

Near the Frankfurt airport they have put up power lines like for trams/street cars so that the trucks can recharge on the go.

I have not looked into since they installed them though...

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14 hours ago, Chris A said:

If there is plenty to go round why is it each winter the EDF ( French electricity company) raise the risk of power cuts? Britain imports electricity so doesn't even produce enough for home consumption at present.

Ask them...

 

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I take on board the "benefits" of using Rail and even Canals, (Electric Canal Boats?), But without the Power infrastructure the whole sytem collapses. Re-opening most of the lines Beeching closed, is no longer an option. Large sections are now Built over. ONLY a system such as the PRC or North Korea has could achieve that in any sort of short period. The "Capitalist" formula dosent work under those conditions. I don`t somehow think "Bulldozing Mrs Wongs apartment" would go down too well in parts of the shires?. They`re already chaining themselves to Excavtors on the HS-2 Route, and that in itself is largely unpopular, more "jobs for the boys", IMV.

Pete

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Just a thought which crosses my comments on extension leads in the street and the costs of upgrading safety regs in apartment blocks....yes, you can see where I'm heading here. Will owners of apartments be happy the foot the bill for charging points to be installed in their apartment car parks? After the rows about the cost of installing safety and other equipment in the aftermath of Grenfell Tower, paying for charging point installation might not go down well, plus there would have to be controls about the actual cost of the electricity to stop users being ripped of with high resale prices.

As for the the actual fuel, may I suggest (and expect to be shouted down by everyone), that the future fuel should be water. Feed it into a 'black box' where it gets electrolysed by electricity generated by the car or initially from a battery, the water is split into hydrogen and oxygen which is fed into a modified ICE. Minimum charging points, lower pollution, cheap fuel......right chaps/chapesses, rip the idea to bits!!!

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19 minutes ago, Badwolf said:

As for the the actual fuel, may I suggest (and expect to be shouted down by everyone), that the future fuel should be water. Feed it into a 'black box' where it gets electrolysed by electricity generated by the car or initially from a battery, the water is split into hydrogen and oxygen which is fed into a modified ICE. Minimum charging points, lower pollution, cheap fuel......right chaps/chapesses, rip the idea to bits!!!

This is a concept that goes back to the 60`s, And likely even further?. As far as I remember the issue is one of scale?. In order to produce the amount of Hydrogen needed the "device" consumes too much power.? Very, very low efficiency. How much Modern "miniturisation" could reduce that by I do not know.

Pete

P.S. This is the latest I can find. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-cars-use-water-for-fuel/

Pete

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I live in an apartment complex and we are willing to pay for EV charging points. Some companies will install foc but you pay higher unit rate. 

However I like hydrogen, I read Toyota are entering a hydrogen piston engined car in a race series. The engine doesn't drive the wheels but generates electricity. 

Iain 

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